OSSC Pro

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dojima
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by dojima »

H6rdc0re wrote:Seriously!? This picture is taken with my Iphone 6, nothing special or any trickery.
haha, you misunderstand. What I'm saying is, a camera with a high enough shutter speed can make any motion look perfect. You could take a picture of a bullet being shot through the air and have it look perfectly still. Taking a picture like that tells nothing about how your eye perceives the bullet traveling through the air.

Please look at the YouTube video I linked that shows how RTINGS gets shots of motion blur. It explains exactly what I'm talking about. They have a camera set up on a rail and follow a moving image with the camera to capture the images. Additionally, they have the shutter speed set to 1/15s to capture 4 frames @ 60hz. This captures the actual motion over time. I'm not saying that you're using any trickery; I'm saying that your methodology is flawed. The iPhone is just capturing an image at probably ~1/250s from your nearly motionless hand. That shows one very brief moment in time, not how the television handles motion persistence.
underage
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by underage »

H6rdc0re wrote: You can use Motion Pro @high on both 60fps and 120fps. Just be sure to use matched refreshrates. I've added a link to show how BFI works in both 60Hz and 120Hz. https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/Jz ... -large.jpg
Are you sure the 'high' setting does two different things, depending on how many frames you provide? If you look closely, they don't really say anything about what settings they used for 120hz & 60hz BFI respectively, it only mentions 100%, which is a bit ambiguous.
Rtings graph for the C1 has the same headers, but it obviously corresponds to two different Motion Pro settings. -> https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/9m ... -large.jpg
Because here they explain what each setting corresponds to in terms of hz/BFI, with the C1 at least: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c1 ... n-settings (see "Motion Interpolation" paragraph)
I think the ones you need for 120hz BFI are 'low' & 'medium', unless it really is completely different with the CX.
H6rdc0re
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by H6rdc0re »

underage wrote:Are you sure the 'high' setting does two different things, depending on how many frames you provide? If you look closely, they don't really say anything about what settings they used for 120hz & 60hz BFI respectively, it only mentions 100%, which is a bit ambiguous.
Rtings graph for the C1 has the same headers, but it obviously corresponds to two different Motion Pro settings. -> https://i.rtings.com/assets/products/9m ... -large.jpg
Because here they explain what each setting corresponds to in terms of hz/BFI, with the C1 at least: https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c1 ... n-settings (see "Motion Interpolation" paragraph)
I think the ones you need for 120hz BFI are 'low' & 'medium', unless it really is completely different with the CX.
I don’t know about the 2021 model but on my CX I have to use BFI on high with both 60Hz and 120Hz for no blur. I remember reading BFI on low inserts 1/4th of a black frame, medium 1/2th of black frame and high a full black frame.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

H6rdc0re wrote:
When you see a rolling scan/bar flicker/strobe method you'll see how it can be improved (I estimate about 2x improved, but don't have measurements to back that up). You can learn more about how this would be an improvement and why it's been a requested feature for RA here: https://github.com/libretro/RetroArch/issues/10757
What are you talking about? Every test pattern is completely sharp with no blur what so ever. Are you ignoring my photo? Here's 2 more also taken with the same Iphone.
https://ibb.co/nc1dGNC
https://ibb.co/Ntc3V2g

Perhaps you haven't seen a 2020/2021 OLED with the right settings. When using the wrong settings, it's blur city.
I mentioned before that I have seen these models with the optimal settings, which, BTW, involve turning off all motion interpolation settings because they actually can provide even smoother motion when combined with BFI, but at the expense of introducing interpolation artifacts (so you may want to make sure that you only have BFI @ max on, but not interpolation). Like I said before, at those right BFI settings even on the newest panels, persistence blur (which is a visual phenomenon rooted in our eyes, and may not be represented accurately in still pictures) is measurable at 4 times that of CRT. It's up to you to decide how close or not that is to CRT.
underage
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by underage »

H6rdc0re wrote: I don’t know about the 2021 model but on my CX I have to use BFI on high with both 60Hz and 120Hz for no blur. I remember reading BFI on low inserts 1/4th of a black frame, medium 1/2th of black frame and high a full black frame.
Indeed, but I think they can only insert a full black frame at 60hz, not at 120hz.
You should be able to easily check that with your own unit. Do 120fps seem noticeably brighter at the 'high' setting compared to 60fps/high? (Ideally comparing the same content)
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

underage wrote: Indeed, but I think they can only insert a full black frame at 60hz, not at 120hz.
You should be able to easily check that with your own unit. Do 120fps seem noticeably brighter at the 'high' setting compared to 60fps/high? (Ideally comparing the same content)
The older 60Hz panels were actually also able to insert a full black frame as well, they in fact do the same thing that the newer 120Hz panels do when the BFI/Motion Pro setting is set to high and the signal is 60fps, that is "single strobe" or flicker at 60hz, which means that each frame of the 60fps content is shown for half the time that it normally would, while the other half is occupied by a full black frame. The same goes for 120fps content @ 120hz, except each time interval is obviously shorter by half. Doubling the frames and blacking out each one for 60fps content would lead to the exact same result in terms of motion blur improvement. EDIT: actually not sure about the exact duration of the full black frame, on LG panels it may in fact be longer than the actual picture frame being displayed, which would explain why the dimming is so significant and visually more than 50%.

This means that as far as 60fps content is concerned, all LG OLED panels, older 60Hz ones and newer 120Hz, will perform exactly the same with BFI set at max (which was the only setting for older models). The advantage of the 120Hz panels is only for 120fps content, which can benefit much more from the max BFI setting @ 120Hz.

It is also correct that at lower settings the BFI becomes a "localized BFI" in that a smaller portion than a full frame is displayed, except it is always at a 120Hz cycle which is beneficial for 120fps in the motion clarity vs brightness loss tradeoff, but not for 60fps content (or ~30fps), which is what we care about for retro stuff + OSSC. This is where a rolling scan/bar @ 60Hz as discussed in the RetroArch article I linked earlier would be a significant improvement.

This discussion now may be getting a bit too tangential, but I still think it fits since a lot of OSSC users will look at commercial OLEDs to pair with them. It should be clear by now that it's completely inaccurate to say that there is "no blur" with any of these LG OLED setups, since even CRT itself has some persistence blur albeit very minimal at 1ms. There's also room to discuss how to compensate for brightness loss from BFI + scanlines, for an SDR signal like that of the OSSC an LCD panel may actually be a preferable choice.
underage
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by underage »

fernan1234 wrote:
underage wrote: Indeed, but I think they can only insert a full black frame at 60hz, not at 120hz.
You should be able to easily check that with your own unit. Do 120fps seem noticeably brighter at the 'high' setting compared to 60fps/high? (Ideally comparing the same content)
The older 60Hz panels were actually also able to insert a full black frame as well, they in fact do the same thing that the newer 120Hz panels do when the BFI/Motion Pro setting is set to high and the signal is 60fps, that is "single strobe" or flicker at 60hz, which means that each frame of the 60fps content is shown for half the time that it normally would, while the other half is occupied by a full black frame. The same goes for 120fps content @ 120hz, except each time interval is obviously shorter by half. Doubling the frames and blacking out each one for 60fps content would lead to the exact same result in terms of motion blur improvement. EDIT: actually not sure about the exact duration of the full black frame, on LG panels it may in fact be longer than the actual picture frame being displayed, which would explain why the dimming is so significant and visually more than 50%.

This means that as far as 60fps content is concerned, all LG OLED panels, older 60Hz ones and newer 120Hz, will perform exactly the same with BFI set at max (which was the only setting for older models). The advantage of the 120Hz panels is only for 120fps content, which can benefit much more from the max BFI setting @ 120Hz.

It is also correct that at lower settings the BFI becomes a "localized BFI" in that a smaller portion than a full frame is displayed, except it is always at a 120Hz cycle which is beneficial for 120fps in the motion clarity vs brightness loss tradeoff, but not for 60fps content (or ~30fps), which is what we care about for retro stuff + OSSC. This is where a rolling scan/bar @ 60Hz as discussed in the RetroArch article I linked earlier would be a significant improvement.

This discussion now may be getting a bit too tangential, but I still think it fits since a lot of OSSC users will look at commercial OLEDs to pair with them. It should be clear by now that it's completely inaccurate to say that there is "no blur" with any of these LG OLED setups, since even CRT itself has some persistence blur albeit very minimal at 1ms. There's also room to discuss how to compensate for brightness loss from BFI + scanlines, for an SDR signal like that of the OSSC an LCD panel may actually be a preferable choice.

So then the OLED behaves almost like a 240hz display? 120 frames + 120 full black frames, each for a duration of about 4ms?
The thing that confuses me though is that rtings claims that the 'high' setting equals 60hz BFI, and you only get (localized?) 120hz BFI with 'low' or 'medium' settings. https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c1 ... n-settings
Anybody have a high-speed camera on hand?
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

underage wrote:So then the OLED behaves almost like a 240hz display? 120 frames + 120 full black frames, each for a duration of about 4ms?
Not really, there's no frame doubling going on. For 120fps content, BFI at max/high is indeed 120 picture frames and 120 full black frames, but the picture frame is replaced with the black frame for some amount of time (I do not know exactly how much) that is less than the 8.3ms that the picture would be displayed and held until the next picture frame without BFI. Same goes for 60fps, with the duration being something less than the 16.67ms that the picture frame would be held. 4ms is the persistence blur duration (in our eyes) for BFI @ max (i.e. 60Hz) for 60fps.

Adding to the confusion, BFI at high works differently for 120fps and 60fps as just described (120Hz and 60Hz), meaning that the pulse ratio of the full black frame is different, but it is a full black frame for both. There will also be a visual difference in 120fps content @ high being both less blurry and brighter than 60fps @ high. But on the other hand medium/low will have the same pulse ratio/duty cycle (120Hz) for both 120fps and 60fps content, with a non-full black frame being inserted at the same rate (which works decently well for 120fps but not really for 60fps or lower). I also think that the cycle can be set to 50Hz for SD PAL inputs (but at that point the flicker will be come particularly noticeable and bothersome to many people).
underage
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by underage »

fernan1234 wrote: For 120fps content, BFI at max/high is indeed 120 picture frames and 120 full black frames,
Ok, that's reassuring. This was really confusing me, because rtings furthermore claims that Motion Pro 'High' introduces judder with 24p material, even after a 5:5 pulldown.
And what that suggested to me is that Motion Pro 'High' will half the framerate if you're providing 120p, and inadvertently perform a 3:2 pulldown of the 24p material, on top of 5:5. Or why else would there be judder?
Maybe this problem is specific to 24p content.


At 120hz the pulse length should be about 4ms btw, as per rtings (if they can be trusted :lol: )

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VEGETA
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by VEGETA »

ldeveraux wrote:
VEGETA wrote: I really wish there was a thread dedicated to such discussions and solutions from engineers who build and test such stuff... it will help all designers.
Then start one so we don't clog up this thread with side-questions.
Here is the separate thread: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=68961
zarkFR
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by zarkFR »

Matt from VGP just showed on twitter a photo of a new OSSC Pro prototype (fw 0.44) and it seems the scart port is facing forward like 5X, but I'm not sure :

https://twitter.com/VGPerfection/status ... 4673604612

What do you think ?
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Konsolkongen
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Konsolkongen »

Looks correct to me. On all SCART plugs I've seen the foldable part of the housing is facing away from the cable, and I think that's visible in the picture.
zarkFR
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by zarkFR »

Konsolkongen wrote:Looks correct to me. On all SCART plugs I've seen the foldable part of the housing is facing away from the cable, and I think that's visible in the picture.
Reading page 31 and looking at the proto again, it seems you're right ! Thanks !
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Lawfer
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Lawfer »

zarkFR wrote:Matt from VGP just showed on twitter a photo of a new OSSC Pro prototype (fw 0.44) and it seems the scart port is facing forward like 5X, but I'm not sure :

https://twitter.com/VGPerfection/status ... 4673604612

What do you think ?
Looking forward to get one for it's HDMI input capabilities.
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

zarkFR wrote:
Konsolkongen wrote:Looks correct to me. On all SCART plugs I've seen the foldable part of the housing is facing away from the cable, and I think that's visible in the picture.
Reading page 31 and looking at the proto again, it seems you're right ! Thanks !
Yes, the cable goes towards back. For those who cannot tolerate the port on the side, it is possible to make a SCART->DE-15 passthru adapter (i.e. no electronic components inside) as shown in the picture below. It can also be used as second SCART input and similar adapters can be done for 3xRCA->DE-15 (also pictured) or DE-15->SCART. I also included first expansion card prototype on the photo. That contains extra AV outputs including DE-15 (RGBHV / RGsB), toslink spdif and 3.5mm audio jack.

Image
zarkFR
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by zarkFR »

Thank you Marqs ! And I think the scart port on the side is perfect, cable will naturally orient itself towards the back, so totally fine for me !

Btw, any update on a possible release date ?
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VEGETA
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by VEGETA »

For me SCART input is a must, despite how freaking big it is. Honestly, I don't know why they made it that big since it is just a connector and barely have some caps sometimes. :shock: :shock:

People suggested using a DIN connector similar to that used in Framemeister, which is also good choice but direct SCART when possible is always better since you won't need adapters and so on. Not all people know about FM and its special adapter.

I hope we can know the estimated price and release date.
kardus
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kardus »

SCART is an awful connector
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Lawfer
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Lawfer »

kardus wrote:SCART is an awful connector
Yeah, the problem is that we are stuck with it as SCART is the only connector that will get you RGBs, there are technically other ways to get Analog RGBs, such as BNC or Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input (Retro Access used to sell some of these a few years ago), but these are either pro grade connectors (BNC) or just downright obscure and rare (Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input).
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Lawfer wrote:Yeah, the problem is that we are stuck with it as SCART is the only connector that will get you RGBs, there are technically other ways to get Analog RGBs, such as BNC or Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input (Retro Access used to sell some of these a few years ago), but these are either pro grade connectors (BNC) or just downright obscure and rare (Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input).
Don't forget about D-Sub (AKA HD15, AKA VGA) which is better than all of those in terms of convenience, availability, and cost. And the OSSC Pro already includes one.
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Lawfer
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Lawfer »

fernan1234 wrote:
Lawfer wrote:Yeah, the problem is that we are stuck with it as SCART is the only connector that will get you RGBs, there are technically other ways to get Analog RGBs, such as BNC or Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input (Retro Access used to sell some of these a few years ago), but these are either pro grade connectors (BNC) or just downright obscure and rare (Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input).
Don't forget about D-Sub (AKA HD15, AKA VGA) which is better than all of those in terms of convenience, availability, and cost. And the OSSC Pro already includes one.
That's RGBHV.
SuperSpongo
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by SuperSpongo »

That's really a matter of interpretation.
Was it used predominantly for RGBHV? Sure, but Extron interfaces support RGBS via HD15, the OSSC supports RGBS via HD15 and the OSSC Pro will most likely as well.
kardus
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kardus »

D-SUB 15/25 is one of the best choices all things considered, breakout/snake cables to whatever you need are cheap, plentiful, or easily made. Ideally any sort of high-end professional/enthusiast device should use BNC, although I can accept is it not practical for smaller devices and most casual end consumers, and it also costs more money to implement. SCART needs to disappear from modern retro devices, even RCA is a superior choice.
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

Lawfer wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Lawfer wrote:Yeah, the problem is that we are stuck with it as SCART is the only connector that will get you RGBs, there are technically other ways to get Analog RGBs, such as BNC or Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input (Retro Access used to sell some of these a few years ago), but these are either pro grade connectors (BNC) or just downright obscure and rare (Sony 34-Pin RGB Multi Input).
Don't forget about D-Sub (AKA HD15, AKA VGA) which is better than all of those in terms of convenience, availability, and cost. And the OSSC Pro already includes one.
That's RGBHV.
The pins can pass anything my man.
gray117
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by gray117 »

Lawfer wrote: That's RGBHV.
This is why things rarely change; precedence is more important than anything else; the king is dead, all hail the king.

(There have of course been many rgbs vga implementations over the years - but most are non general kit - processors/workstations/projectors etc.... some didn't even have sensible pinouts ... maybe to sell you cable ...)

Once established this was really never going to change - you just shouldn't allow users to plug things in wrong - you were never going to get hd15 on consumer equipment unless it could support 31khz (imagine the chaos of people mismatching both equipment and screens because it all had the same plug... so many blown tvs and upset christmas mornings)

And yes this all makes the jp21 standard particularly dumb ... and partly attributable for it's failure even within it's native market.

Scart is fine. hd15 is better. Both tend to have more insulation/cross talk issues than rca/bnc rgb solutions .... but fck having 4+ cables with individual locks for every hook up when you might have a lot and/or want to swap them (and congratulations to you if you have your bnc crosspoint solution all wired and set -- but you have to admit it's not what most people want :) ...)

...

OSSC pro looks like an excellent spec - very interested to see if it can basically solve compatibility and de-interlace issues which was only ever the real reason to caution anyone on getting an original OSSC.
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

fernan1234 wrote:The pins can pass anything my man.
IDK how people deep enough into this hobby that they post on Shmups could forget that these things exist:

Image

RGBS / 'csync'! Stick it on the output of the SCART2VGA from RetroUpgrades and in the notes, ask him to adjust the solder blob so it pulls 5V from SCART and doesn't need external power, it's literally cheaper than any female SCART to BNC cable with a sync stripper https://www.retroupgrades.co.uk/product ... a-adapter/

(...though, I guess it's only cheaper if you already have one of these cables lying around. Which anyone in this dark, dark hobby really ought to. Can also obvi use a VGA to 5BNC and use the BNC connector for horizontal sync)

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Sync on Green/RGsB! YPbPr/YUV/YCbCr/Component oh gawd it has so many namesssss; stick it on the end of yr PS2 component cable or whatever when it's set to RGB and displaying 480p... if your monitor takes RGsB, of course

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...though, of course we do live in a fucked-up world where far too many people get tricked into buying these

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^ the only thing that these are gonna work on are some VERY old Matrox video cards... so many people out there have been fucked over by these, haha :(

Amazon / every damn site ever should just have giant disclaimers "CABLES =/= CONVERTERS!"
Dochartaigh
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Dochartaigh »

kitty666cats wrote: ^ the only thing that these are gonna work on are some VERY old Matrox video cards... so many people out there have been fucked over by these, haha :(
AND... the Analogue NT Mini Noir and its variants for some weird reason (and I assume their DAC too).

...or I'm guessing at least. The Noir did NOT work with my 4+ dozen Extron/Kramer/Liberty/Monoprice/etc. VGA to 5xBNC cables like I've used for Composite and S-Video on tons of industry standard video devices... I had to make a special purchase of these weird ones (which look just like the above) meant for old video card use for the Noir for some strange reason.

I'm still super confused why they would use something so non-standard when everybody and their mother has those regular VGA to BNC cables if they have a decent size analog setup...
fernan1234
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by fernan1234 »

kitty666cats wrote:IDK how people deep enough into this hobby that they post on Shmups could forget that these things exist:



RGBS / 'csync'
For RGBS, you can also use the RGBHV/5-BNC cables, and simply not connect the V line.
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kitty666cats
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by kitty666cats »

fernan1234 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:IDK how people deep enough into this hobby that they post on Shmups could forget that these things exist:



RGBS / 'csync'
For RGBS, you can also use the RGBHV/5-BNC cables, and simply not connect the V line.
Yerp, I said that later on - almost forgot to! Honestly, not really any good reason to buy a VGA <-> 4 BNC. Unless you have really bad OCD or something :P
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Unseen
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Unseen »

gray117 wrote:Scart is fine. hd15 is better. Both tend to have more insulation/cross talk issues than rca/bnc rgb solutions
13W3 should have less crosstalk than plain D-Sub, but the connectors are a bit expensive.
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