OSSC Pro

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6t8k
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by 6t8k »

marqs wrote:Perhaps the below example for 240p -> 1920x1080 (Line4x) [Generic 4:3] gives some idea how the parameters are selected under the hood:
Spoiler
Input [1]:

H1_Total: H1_Active / 0.82 = 1560 (ADC sampling rate)
V1_Total: ~262 (source-dependant)
H1_Active: X2 = 1280
V1_Active: 240

Output [2]:

H2_Total: 2200 (CEA-spec)
V2_Total: 1125 (CEA-spec)
H2_Active: 1920 (CEA-spec)
V2_Active: 1080 (CEA-spec)
X2: (4/3)*Y2 = 1280
Y2: 4*V1_Active = 960
6t8k wrote:Side-note: the implementation of the non-Pro OSSC's "Line5x format" setting must be tied to a (slightly?) different concept because the external clock generator is missing, right?
That just adjusts vertical active-blanking ratio while total stays same.
6t8k wrote:Assumption: as opposed to LM/ALM modes, in scaler mode, the Pro does not have to do this and will be able to freely scale in both H and V dimensions.
Freeform scaling in just H dimension could be done in all modes (no additional buffering), but freeform vertical/combined scaling is not within the definition of line multiplication. The premise of line multiplication is to provide pixel/line accurate output with minimal delay while scaler mode can trade some of that for better size/aspect control.
I'm going to print this out and tack it onto my wall. Thank you. Image

(Only thing remaining that "appears from nowhere" and I couldn't nail down yet is the 0.82 divisor, but I'm confident I'll find out.)

Edit: it would seem that H1_Total = H1_Active + H2_Blank (H2_Total - H2_Active) because it is projected onto 1920x1080.
1280/(1280+280) = 32/39 ≈ 0.82.
loonsta
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by loonsta »

@marqs Is there any idea of when this will be available for purchase or the expected price point? also is there likely to be a long waiting list (how would I get on it)?

My use case: I'm looking for a solution to live stream Amiga 1200 via an Atem Mini Pro which takes HDMI input.
https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/produc ... s/W-APS-14
Arndroid
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Arndroid »

Was there already a development/test available to put on a Cyclone V? Perhaps also a PCB file to print for it?

On Marqs Github I can't really see anything OSSC Pro related really quick.

Thanks!
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

6t8k wrote:(Only thing remaining that "appears from nowhere" and I couldn't nail down yet is the 0.82 divisor, but I'm confident I'll find out.)

Edit: it would seem that H1_Total = H1_Active + H2_Blank (H2_Total - H2_Active) because it is projected onto 1920x1080.
1280/(1280+280) = 32/39 ≈ 0.82.
Actually 0.82 (or more precisely 0.820512...) is the aspect-correct ratio for visible portion of a scanline on 15/31kHz video. In other words, 240 lines form height of the (underscanned) picture and then 82% of the scanline is the corresponding width for correct 4:3 aspect.
DiegoPonga
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by DiegoPonga »

Hey @marqs!

Love your work! I've been enjoying the OSSC for over a year and a half and couldn't be happier! Can't wait to play with the OSSC Pro.

Just a question... I was wondering if you have plans for 720p games, which were super common on both the PS3 and the Xbox 360. I know line tripler here would be impossible, due to the limitations of hardware, but what about upscaling it to 1080p in a way that it is not messy?

Many of us have 4K TVs in which 960p and 720p signals are not satisfactorily upscaled. The windowed 960p in a 1080p background is a perfect solution, but what about 720p games?

Also, RetroGamingCables is now producind these HDMI cables called RAD2X. Would it work with OSSC Pro? Would it improve anything?

Thanks a lot for your time! Hope you're ok during the confinement!
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6t8k
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by 6t8k »

marqs wrote:Actually 0.82 (or more precisely 0.820512...) is the aspect-correct ratio for visible portion of a scanline on 15/31kHz video. In other words, 240 lines form height of the (underscanned) picture and then 82% of the scanline is the corresponding width for correct 4:3 aspect.
Ah! That makes sense. I previously read that horizontal blanking occupies slightly different ratio of every total scanline though? The most accurate numbers I could find are here (SMPTE 170M), which ultimately defines it as (572/9 - ( 1.5 + 9.2 + tolerance )) / (572/9), where
-0.2 <= tolerance <= +0.3 (numbers shown are μs). 18% lies outside of that window. Now that you spelled out the number, I'm surprised that it seems to be exactly 32/39. Where does it originate from?

I take it, that the classical problem is that while analog video specs state that the image has to have a 4:3 aspect ratio when displayed, they don't state what portion of the video signal that 4:3 corresponds to, so as somebody who wants to digitize said signal for display, you have to make something up that's approximately right. Is that what's happening here?

What further complicates this is of course is that consoles have horizontal active/blank ratios that differ from the above (I take it you assumed an idealized NTSC signal here). So assuming 1) the Pro doesn't detect the horizontal active/blank ratio of the connected video source by itself and 2) you want to calibrate the image such that it's displayed in the aspect ratio you'd get if you calibrated your CRT to show the whole active area using potentiometers – something that people prominently try to recreate based on this methodology for example – the gist would be that this would only be possible in scaler mode, right?
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Kez
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Kez »

DiegoPonga wrote:RetroGamingCables is now producind these HDMI cables called RAD2X. Would it work with OSSC Pro? Would it improve anything?
The RAD2x is just kinda doing what an OSSC does anyway, it takes the analogue output from the console, digitises and then doubles it (hence the 2x). I'm sure it would work connected to the OSSC but it would also limit your options as the signal is already 480p.. the OSSC would only be able to do Line2x on that (i.e. Line4x on the original signal) so you would lose line 3x and 5x as options. You also wouldn't be able to dial in optimal timings.
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by nmalinoski »

DiegoPonga wrote:Just a question... I was wondering if you have plans for 720p games, which were super common on both the PS3 and the Xbox 360. I know line tripler here would be impossible, due to the limitations of hardware, but what about upscaling it to 1080p in a way that it is not messy?

Many of us have 4K TVs in which 960p and 720p signals are not satisfactorily upscaled. The windowed 960p in a 1080p background is a perfect solution, but what about 720p games?
Not likely to happen with the regular OSSC, but the OSSC Pro is going to have a full scaler, which would be able to both scale 720p to 1080p or windowbox 720p in a 1080p frame, depending on your preference.
DiegoPonga wrote:Also, RetroGamingCables is now producind these HDMI cables called RAD2X. Would it work with OSSC Pro? Would it improve anything?
The RAD2X is a different product for a different audience. Yes, it should work fine with the OSSC Pro, but I imagine you'd get more options and capability connecting RGB from the console directly to the OSSC Pro.
Tazz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Tazz »

Completely crazy idea for the ossc pro:
If we could provide some x/y coordinate to the fpga in some way, with the appropriate code could it fire a gpio when the input signal reach the corresponding line/pixel (properly scaled to the x/y coordinate range) ? Or no because the analog front end mask to much details ?
See https://www.sindenlightgun.com
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marqs
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by marqs »

Tazz wrote:Completely crazy idea for the ossc pro:
If we could provide some x/y coordinate to the fpga in some way, with the appropriate code could it fire a gpio when the input signal reach the corresponding line/pixel (properly scaled to the x/y coordinate range) ? Or no because the analog front end mask to much details ?
See https://www.sindenlightgun.com
It's possible, but I'm not sure if it'd be helpful as modern lightguns can't operate by triggering on CRT beam "collision" (and getting corresponding X/Y position from sync signal etc).
Tazz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Tazz »

marqs wrote:
Tazz wrote:Completely crazy idea for the ossc pro:
If we could provide some x/y coordinate to the fpga in some way, with the appropriate code could it fire a gpio when the input signal reach the corresponding line/pixel (properly scaled to the x/y coordinate range) ? Or no because the analog front end mask to much details ?
See https://www.sindenlightgun.com
It's possible, but I'm not sure if it'd be helpful as modern lightguns can't operate by triggering on CRT beam "collision" (and getting corresponding X/Y position from sync signal etc).
Yes but it is exactly for the opposite : use a sindenlightgun to be able to use original retro hardware on modern TV panel (and a ossc pro).
Today, for all old console/hw using lightguns, you must have a CRT and a not too modern one (no 100hz).
With sindenlightgun, you could play theses old games on modern panel but only on an emulator.
With a proper OSSC pro addon (and some OSSC support code), we could get x/y from sindenlightgun (USB mouse) push them to ossc on one side, get beam interrupt/pulse from OSSC and push it on the old device/console with the proper level/pin adaptation (with trigger press event too etc ...).
On the OSSC side when in "sindenlightgun" mode we need
- a way to push x/y
- generate the proper white border
- generate the pulse when the "virtual beam" reach x/y
Drunk_Caterpillar
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Drunk_Caterpillar »

Maybe this has already been addressed, but I have a weird use case...

So the RetroTink/RAD2x have this smoothing filter that looks pretty good, yeah? I asked Mike Chi about it, and he mentioned that the way the filter is applied is that the image coming in is scaled from 240p to 480p, and then the filter seeks out edges and performs smoothing.

So I have an N64 with an UltraHDMI mod installed, and the lowest resolution it can output is 480p. Is it possible for the OSSC Pro to apply a similar filter to the UltraHDMI 480p image and then scale the output from that to 1080p? I mean, eventually of course; I know that there is a ton of stuff in the pipeline before that'll be possible.
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Josh128
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Josh128 »

Man, Ive been keeping track of this thread....if Marqs somehow implements all the features that have been requested, the Pro should be released in about 5 years or so and only set you back a couple G's. :mrgreen:
strayan
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by strayan »

Drunk_Caterpillar wrote:So I have an N64 with an UltraHDMI mod installed, and the lowest resolution it can output is 480p. Is it possible for the OSSC Pro to apply a similar filter to the UltraHDMI 480p image and then scale the output from that to 1080p? I mean, eventually of course; I know that there is a ton of stuff in the pipeline before that'll be possible.
What I think would look even better is using the OSSC Pro to upscale the 640x480 output from the ultraHDMI to 1440p with an edge smoothing filter then downscale back to 480p for display on a PC CRT or presentation monitor.
nmalinoski
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by nmalinoski »

Drunk_Caterpillar wrote:Maybe this has already been addressed, but I have a weird use case...

So the RetroTink/RAD2x have this smoothing filter that looks pretty good, yeah? I asked Mike Chi about it, and he mentioned that the way the filter is applied is that the image coming in is scaled from 240p to 480p, and then the filter seeks out edges and performs smoothing.

So I have an N64 with an UltraHDMI mod installed, and the lowest resolution it can output is 480p. Is it possible for the OSSC Pro to apply a similar filter to the UltraHDMI 480p image and then scale the output from that to 1080p? I mean, eventually of course; I know that there is a ton of stuff in the pipeline before that'll be possible.
Why not try to get in touch with Marshall of retroactive.be to get a smoothing filter added to the UltraHDMI firmware?
XtraSmiley
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XtraSmiley »

OK, we're in June now. Any tidbits or updates to pass yet?

Still VERY excited for this bad boy!
omikron24
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by omikron24 »

Hello guys, awesome job on OSSC and OSSC pro! Love the device so far however there are 2 significant design flaws in each revision including the PRO version.

Issue #1
I don't want to be the one to ruin your fun but have you actually hold a component cable in your hand? Have you seen it?
Here are some pictures:
Image

Or

Image

Noticed something?

In each revision of OSSC component RCAs are RGB which is incorrect order. The correct one is RBG. This seems small but it is very annoying when you have all your cables manufactured with a standard but the device requires you to twist the RCAs in an unintended way, potentially compromising them in the long run. And thing looks like a mess. trust me, proper cable routing is important for both maintenance and cable protection & reliability.

Issue#2

Port locations are sub optimal. Really really bad from user perspective, especially if you have multiple devices that use the same type of connector. For older revisions for example if one is using component cable - you have to ensure that your individual RCA's are long enough to bend around 90 degrees to stick in the side of OSSC 3.5 jack via adapter or an extender. From electrical perspective the more converters/adapters/extenders one is using - the more signal degrades, pick's up noise etc. And it looks awful too.
Even more so if you try to plug in VGA with 3.5 audio. they are 180 degrees opposite of each other which makes some cables really bent and causes strain.

It is super cool that OSSC pro is going to have 5 inline RCAs for the component (too bad they are in the wrong order though) but I see the same design flaw that plagues raspberri devices, arduino and OSSC unfortunately.
If you look at electronic devices they have an established common sense port placement. For example on the back of tv's or av receivers ports are grouped together for the best convenience.

1. Front end of the device is usually where all action or frequent swaps happen and it has: on switch, other buttons and switches, display, ir port, card slots, controller ports, etc.
2. Back end is usually power input, video out, audio out, service connectors, exhaust ports etc.

Usually you never see cables plugging in the side of the tv box, dvd player, game console, dvr and so on.

The use of display on OSSC implies that it is front side so maybe, just maybe it is possible to consider a better design?

Like this:

_HDMI_TOSLINK/SPDIF_3.5_HDMI_3.5_VGA_COMPONENT_SCART_BLANK_POWER_
|_OUT______OUT_____OUT__IN___IN__IN______IN_______IN__ COVER|__IN___|
|___________________________________________________________________|
|____________________________________________________EXPANSION|_____|
|_______________________________________________________PORT________|
|___________________________________________________________________|
|___________________________________________________________________|
|___________________________________________________________________|
|_DISPLAY_SD CARD_IR PORT_BUTTON1_BUTTON2_STATUS LED_POWER BUTTON__|


Note how out's are separated from in's and power. Blank cover is used to install future expansions or additional ports.
Also VGA is close to the component's audio RCA and 3.5 in in order to use which ever is more comfortable for the user.
JTAG should be somewhere on the board but I think it is the least used connector for most users, so no point in placing it on the front panel or the back or the sides.

On the front end everything is pretty much classic - power in the right corner, status leds near the power.
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TheSwartz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by TheSwartz »

omikron24 wrote:The correct one is RBG.
Maybe the standard should be renamed to PrYPb.
I probably spend more time collecting games and tinkering with my consoles than actually playing them...
XtraSmiley
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XtraSmiley »

Good post about the Component inputs! It's funny because in the block diagram on post 1, the color order is correct, but on the concept drawing, it has reverted to the OSSC standard, which causes the problems.

OSSC Team, can we stick to the standard, as I agree, twisting the cables has been a pain!

Oddly enough, the a/v cables, (white then red) are incorrect in the block diagram, but correct in concept! LOL
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

I've been following the issue you posted regarding the RCA jacks on github and I have to respectfully say: I 100% don't give a shit about this "problem"

I use RG-59 triple for my component video input. Yes they are out of order. No, it doesn't affect anything. Certainly not going to "compromise them in the long run" or any other such nonsense.

Key digital RCA based devices use the same order as the OSSC does btw.
shroom2k
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by shroom2k »

The incorrect RCA colors are annoying. If you 'set and forget' once, it's not an issue, but if you redo your setup every once in a while, it can be quite a nuisance.

On the other hand, regarding the part about poor port placement for end user, I don't think we have much right to complain. This is a multi-purpose device with numerous different kinds of inputs, it can't be compared to a regular consumer DVD player. I'm pretty certain there are some electrical or development-related placement considerations that only Marqs knows about, and the port placement cannot be easily changed.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Konsolkongen »

Changing the form factor to accommodate these suggestions would also result in a larger PCB making it more expensive. But hey it’s open source right? If enough people feel this way they should team up and do a redesign. Also, if standards are so important I would like to add that 95% of my electronic devices has the power button on the left side :)
XtraSmiley
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XtraSmiley »

maxtherabbit wrote:I've been following the issue you posted regarding the RCA jacks on github and I have to respectfully say: I 100% don't give a shit about this "problem"

I use RG-59 triple for my component video input. Yes they are out of order. No, it doesn't affect anything. Certainly not going to "compromise them in the long run" or any other such nonsense.

Key digital RCA based devices use the same order as the OSSC does btw.
This is an interesting post because you say you agree it's out of order but you don't care. So I guess you shouldn't care if a few people ask for it to be in a different order as well?
XtraSmiley
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XtraSmiley »

shroom2k wrote:The incorrect RCA colors are annoying. If you 'set and forget' once, it's not an issue, but if you redo your setup every once in a while, it can be quite a nuisance.

On the other hand, regarding the part about poor port placement for end user, I don't think we have much right to complain. This is a multi-purpose device with numerous different kinds of inputs, it can't be compared to a regular consumer DVD player. I'm pretty certain there are some electrical or development-related placement considerations that only Marqs knows about, and the port placement cannot be easily changed.
Agreed on all points. If it's an easy fix (block diagram to concept change) then go for it, if not or it introduces delays/other problems, it's not worth the hassle.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by maxtherabbit »

XtraSmiley wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:I've been following the issue you posted regarding the RCA jacks on github and I have to respectfully say: I 100% don't give a shit about this "problem"

I use RG-59 triple for my component video input. Yes they are out of order. No, it doesn't affect anything. Certainly not going to "compromise them in the long run" or any other such nonsense.

Key digital RCA based devices use the same order as the OSSC does btw.
This is an interesting post because you say you agree it's out of order but you don't care. So I guess you shouldn't care if a few people ask for it to be in a different order as well?
If putting them in the correct order was trivial and free of cost, I would have said nothing and had no objection. But if you were following the github thread you'd know that marqs did not just arbitrarily choose the order. It was based on parts availability. Choosing a more expensive and/or difficult part to source only to satisfy people's OCD is not something I can support.
strayan
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by strayan »

Mike Chi's product line also has them in the wrong order :twisted:
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Guspaz
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Guspaz »

If you go to Digikey and look at every single 3xRCA jack assembly that they sell that has a colour photograph, every single one of them are in RGB order and not RBG. That's just what's available these days.
omikron24
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by omikron24 »

maxtherabbit wrote:I've been following the issue you posted regarding the RCA jacks on github and I have to respectfully say: I 100% don't give a shit about this "problem"

I use RG-59 triple for my component video input. Yes they are out of order. No, it doesn't affect anything. Certainly not going to "compromise them in the long run" or any other such nonsense.

Key digital RCA based devices use the same order as the OSSC does btw.
1. Github request was a separate inquiry to see if things could be fixed via firmware
2. If you don't care in the first place then why are you here and on github?
3. Such "nonsense" can cost you a cable or a short circuit and potential electrical damage to the device, if you never had a cable fail on you - cool, but if you had and you know how it could be avoided then you should put some teeny tiny amount of effort to prevent it from happening. Some plastics, especially dark colored can become brittle overtime if they are exposed to UV light from the sun, like in sunny countries you know, add additional twist&strain and you cable won't last years as expected, nothing is eternal and I don't want to speed up this process.

Just out of curiosity - have you ever seen Apple's usb cables? That break exactly at the point of badly designed strain relief?

Image

4. Of course tv manufacturers and game console manufacturers are part of conspiracy theory lair that established their own standard and refuse to join "key digital RCA based devices"

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Last edited by omikron24 on Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:47 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Konsolkongen
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by Konsolkongen »

I would really love to see the cables you use that are so thick and tough that you worry they will rip the OSSC to pieces :O
XtraSmiley
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Re: OSSC Pro

Post by XtraSmiley »

maxtherabbit wrote:
XtraSmiley wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:I've been following the issue you posted regarding the RCA jacks on github and I have to respectfully say: I 100% don't give a shit about this "problem"

I use RG-59 triple for my component video input. Yes they are out of order. No, it doesn't affect anything. Certainly not going to "compromise them in the long run" or any other such nonsense.

Key digital RCA based devices use the same order as the OSSC does btw.
This is an interesting post because you say you agree it's out of order but you don't care. So I guess you shouldn't care if a few people ask for it to be in a different order as well?
If putting them in the correct order was trivial and free of cost, I would have said nothing and had no objection. But if you were following the github thread you'd know that marqs did not just arbitrarily choose the order. It was based on parts availability. Choosing a more expensive and/or difficult part to source only to satisfy people's OCD is not something I can support.
Great, don't support it for OCD, support it because it was a valid request.

As posted, if it's not a big deal, won't cause delay or cost increase, please correct, if not, it's cool.

No reason for anyone to lash out about this. I think some people may be a bit on the spectrum here...
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