DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

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strayan
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by strayan »

deezdrama wrote:I thought hdmi to component would introduce a bunch of lag from the digital to analog conversion and not produce 240p resolutions?
Digital to analog convertors like https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZ73Y13/ are lagless. This is confirmed by the guy who created the Time Sleuth lag tester https://shop.dansprojects.com/time-sleu ... ester.html

At least one hdmi to YPbPr device will handle 240p: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... o_your_tv/
deezdrama
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by deezdrama »

Thanks for verifying things. I was pretty sure with all ive read that analog pushing 15kHz signal to the crt was the way to go but the hdmi to component comment above had me thinking i missed some new way of doing this.

Before the crt came into the picture i planned on running a gtx 1060.

I picked the r9 380 because the 380 and 380x were the last amd cards made that still carried an analog signal via dvi-i, and want to be able to run newer emulators as well....like dolphin etc.

I have quite alot of spare components at the moment and have 2 builds going on.
For this crt pc build ill be running an i5 2500k on a z77 board overclocked between 4-4.5ghz, 16gb ddr3, 1tb ssd.
This should work out decent as i have a much older setup in my arcade cabinet (an old 775 socket mobo with a socket mod running a quadcore xeon at 4.2ghz, 8gb ddr2, old gtx 650ti.) And it runs dolphin/dreamcast just fine.

The second build is actually going to replace the pc in my arcade cab. It will be an i5 3570k overclocked,z77 board, 16gb ddr3, 2tb hdd, gtx 770.

I figured the i5 2500k overclocked to 4 - 4.5ghz with the r9 380 should be plenty to run emulation at 480res.



Anyone ever used or heard of that Calrad transcoder? Does it sound/look like it will work?
All the specs seem the same as the keydigital and audio authority units
deezdrama
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by deezdrama »

strayan wrote:
deezdrama wrote:I thought hdmi to component would introduce a bunch of lag from the digital to analog conversion and not produce 240p resolutions?
Digital to analog convertors like https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZ73Y13/ are lagless. This is confirmed by the guy who created the Time Sleuth lag tester https://shop.dansprojects.com/time-sleu ... ester.html

At least one hdmi to YPbPr device will handle 240p: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... o_your_tv/
If theres no negatives to this method, how come more arent doing it? I dont see how it doesnt introduce lag when it has to convert digital to analog. How would all the resolutions in groovy mame be handled with this approach?
Has anyone done this?
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maxtherabbit
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by maxtherabbit »

deezdrama wrote:
strayan wrote:
deezdrama wrote:I thought hdmi to component would introduce a bunch of lag from the digital to analog conversion and not produce 240p resolutions?
Digital to analog convertors like https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01LZ73Y13/ are lagless. This is confirmed by the guy who created the Time Sleuth lag tester https://shop.dansprojects.com/time-sleu ... ester.html

At least one hdmi to YPbPr device will handle 240p: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... o_your_tv/
If theres no negatives to this method, how come more arent doing it? I dont see how it doesnt introduce lag when it has to convert digital to analog. How would all the resolutions in groovy mame be handled with this approach?
Has anyone done this?
Tons of people do it, there is no lag because converting a binary color value to a voltage in hardware is a relatively trivial process and is measured in nanoseconds
Taiyaki
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by Taiyaki »

That's a really good PC build you put together. It's actually fairly close to my Groovymame box except you chose a higher gpu and a less good cpu (which makes sense if you're aiming for some Dolphin). Still with the overclocking of that cpu you're going to get incredible results on Groovymame.

With an hdmi converter you'll still doing some digital to analog conversion, and while in practice it might work fine I'd still be opposed, especially if you're going to the trouble of installing crt emudriver and groovymame and going for the most accurate emulation possible.
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Guspaz
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by Guspaz »

deezdrama wrote:If theres no negatives to this method, how come more arent doing it? I dont see how it doesnt introduce lag when it has to convert digital to analog. How would all the resolutions in groovy mame be handled with this approach?
Has anyone done this?
Who said there are no negatives? Just because there isn't any lag (which makes sense when you think about it, lag means buffering, buffering means memory, memory means cost, cheaper to just pump the digital signal through DACs directly) doesn't mean there aren't any negatives.

Compatibility is a concern (not everything will pass 240p properly), quality is a concern (crushed blacks, blown out whites, fuzzy image, blooming or ringing, noise, etc), reliability is a concern (the one linked has a two star average review because everybody says it either overheats, doesn't work at all, or produces a crap image).
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orange808
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by orange808 »

Here's a possibility.

Can you force YCbCr/YPbPr over HDMI or Displayport?

Then, you can perform a simple digital to analog conversion without color space conversion. Of course, that assumes the GPU will do a good job.
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Taiyaki
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by Taiyaki »

Honestly at this point I'd just recommend Deezdrama go with the Retrotek transcoder since he still seems to sell them. It's not as optimal as the Audio Authority as color accuracy takes a little hit, but unless you're completely ocd about it it's nothing that would get in the way of the fun. It's still a prefered option over going with hdmi, and if anything else could hold him over until one from Audio Authority shows up on eBay or Amazon again (or until someone else produces something of that quality again).
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orange808
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by orange808 »

I usually hate cheap Chinese gear, but my cheap HDMI to component box is actually good. I'd try that $12usd HDMI to component adapter first if I was starting from scratch.
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deezdrama
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by deezdrama »

I am a little ocd about getting the best image possible through YPbPr.
A buddy from work gave me a really nice never used 40-something inch plasma that had component inputs,
I bought the most recommended chinese hdmi to ypbpr converter but couldnt get a signal on the plasma, this was before i dug out my wii with component cables and could test it.
Ended up putting the plasma out to the curb but think it was just the converter was faulty.
Anyway... Id like to go with the best route so guess ill keep an eye out for an audio authority.
Im sure it will take several weeks to get the system, roms, emus, frontend setup anyway and still waiting on my ssd
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orange808
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by orange808 »

Audio Authority transcoder to OSSC
- versus -
SCART direct to OSSC (x4 960p) Generic 4:3

*Screencaps taken with Datapath capture card (8-8-8 capture format) from Vision Window application.

https://imgur.com/a/8sMqsOc

There it is. You decide if it's really "perfect" and worth all this fuss.

I'll use MiSTer later to get some caps of my HDMI to component. I bet the results match or exceed what we see here. I could be wrong. I guess we'll see. I'll have to look up how to get the native video output over HDMI. I remember sorgelig posted something about it on the atari forums a while back.
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deezdrama
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by deezdrama »

scart colors look to pop a hair more and a touch sharper image but pretty close, Id be happy with either or anything close, I just dont want any lag, blur, or colors off.
I ended up making a deal with someone on the forum for a 9A60, if all goes as planned will be sending funds monday for it.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by maxtherabbit »

orange808 wrote:Audio Authority transcoder to OSSC
- versus -
SCART direct to OSSC (x4 960p) Generic 4:3

*Screencaps taken with Datapath capture card (8-8-8 capture format) from Vision Window application.

https://imgur.com/a/8sMqsOc

There it is. You decide if it's really "perfect" and worth all this fuss.

I'll use MiSTer later to get some caps of my HDMI to component. I bet the results match or exceed what we see here. I could be wrong. I guess we'll see. I'll have to look up how to get the native video output over HDMI. I remember sorgelig posted something about it on the atari forums a while back.
yuck
strayan
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by strayan »

maxtherabbit wrote: yuck

Yeah, I don’t think it should look like that.
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kitty666cats
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by kitty666cats »

How has nobody brought up Jam aka Linuxbot3000 from eBay? https://wakabavideo.com

Design has vastly improved over the year. He should be restocking his shit pretty soon!

There's also the Kramer FC-14, this RetroTek one: https://www.retrotekshop.com/products?pn=VGACTV2 , and if you can somehow track down the Crescendo Systems ones they're supposed to be dope
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orange808
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by orange808 »

The Kramer FC-14 loses sharpness as well. I don't have a Linuxbot, but I don't believe in "analog in" to "analog out" transcoders that output a "pristine" image. I have lots of them and none of them do it.

If you add a transcoder/color space converter, there will probably be a penalty. That's why we always try to connect our consoles directly to displays and video processors.

Hooked up to a CRT, all the high quality machines (like the AA) look just fine to me. The issues don't pop up until I start connecting a sharp digital display or capture card. I'm just pointing out that the Audio Authority may have gotten (a little) more hype than it actually deserves.
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Taiyaki
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by Taiyaki »

I've also heard of AA transcoders that come with issues and were not producing a perfectly stable image. The difference with the Retrotek and the AA is also in that the AA has an adjustment knob inside, if the picture has issues you can apparently adjust it via the knob. When I received my AA unit it was sold straight from AA themselves as a refurbished model, as a result I think they had done the work and when I replaced the Retrotek I noticed immediately how much better the colors were (and slightly reduced noise).

Some people on various message boards also swear by the Retrotek too so it's not that it's a major downgrade, but I'm pretty ocd about picture quality so I can generally catch those little differences.

At the end of the day so long as your system is up and running the way you want it's ok to have some minor compromises. After all most crt's already have color compromises as part of their limitations, as well as in geometry and convergence, in a way compromises are part of the crt experience. if you want near perfect you go with a Sony bvm (which still do not have perfect geometry I would add), but by then you might have a hard time distinguishing your crt with a high end lcd using scanlines, so where you gain you also lose, if that makes any sense.
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kitty666cats
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by kitty666cats »

orange808 wrote:The Kramer FC-14 loses sharpness as well.
Do you have one? I’ve only used the BNC input and not DSUB, and I used it on a consumer set, but it looks fucking incredible

https://www.instagram.com/p/B6hYzzJFyVM ... sltwmv86uo

Here’s a very quick random vid I took of it from a Raspberry Pi w/ analog hat, 240p settings into the Kramer. Set is my WEGA KV-32FS100. If that doesn’t look absolutely incredible for a non RGB modded BA-5D chassis then I don’t know what could be better. I’ve got the CSY-2100 clone, the RetroTink transcoder, and a Linuxbot. This easily takes the cake, but those other two that aren’t the clone also look amazing
Last edited by kitty666cats on Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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kitty666cats
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by kitty666cats »

orange808 wrote:I don't have a Linuxbot, but I don't believe in "analog in" to "analog out" transcoders that output a "pristine" image.
Also huh? That’s exactly what’s happening when you’re plugging YPbPr and not YCbCr into a CRT
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orange808
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by orange808 »

kitty666cats wrote:
orange808 wrote:The Kramer FC-14 loses sharpness as well.
Do you have one?
Yes. The FC-14 is my daily driver.
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orange808
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by orange808 »

kitty666cats wrote:
orange808 wrote:I don't have a Linuxbot, but I don't believe in "analog in" to "analog out" transcoders that output a "pristine" image.
Also huh? That’s exactly what’s happening when you’re plugging YPbPr and not YCbCr into a CRT
I have a closet full of transcoders/color space converters and they all have the same general characteristics.

I see your point, though.

The capture card is not only "too sharp" to demonstrate what a CRT displays, it also isn't doing any image enhancement.

The capture card doesn't show you what I get after I adjust my CRT display settings for the component input.
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kitty666cats
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by kitty666cats »

orange808 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
orange808 wrote:The Kramer FC-14 loses sharpness as well.
Do you have one?
Yes. The FC-14 is my daily driver.
You ever successfully get sync on luma into and out of it?
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kitty666cats
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by kitty666cats »

orange808 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
orange808 wrote:I don't have a Linuxbot, but I don't believe in "analog in" to "analog out" transcoders that output a "pristine" image.
Also huh? That’s exactly what’s happening when you’re plugging YPbPr and not YCbCr into a CRT
I have a closet full of transcoders/color space converters and they all have the same general characteristics.

I see your point, though.

The capture card is not only "too sharp" to demonstrate what a CRT displays, it also isn't doing any image enhancement.

The capture card doesn't show you what I get after I adjust my CRT display settings for the component input.
Ohhhh I forgot about a capture card part of the discussion. I don’t really have any reason to unplug the Kramer, but if I ever do I just go to the service menu and move HPOS a couple notches to the right :) Easy peasy!
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BazookaBen
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by BazookaBen »

deezdrama wrote:So am I right in assuming the Audio Authority 9A60 transcoder I ordered will combine the vga's seperate H/V syncs and put them on Y luma on the component output and I shouldnt have anything else to do besides set up crt-emudriver...
Taiyaki wrote:I've also heard of AA transcoders that come with issues and were not producing a perfectly stable image.
I have the 9A60, and the only issue I've run into is that with separate H+V sync at 15kHz, I'll get a few lines that aren't syncing properly sometimes. I fixed it by switching to composite sync from CRT EmuDriver. That said, I never adjusted that potentiometer inside the 9A60 though, so that may be another way to solve the issue, I don't remember exactly what it does.

And you also have to make sure you mod your VGA cable or use a couple BNC breakouts to switch sync from the H line to the V line. CRT Emu driver outputs C-sync on H, but the 9A60 takes C-sync on V

But yeah, after you take care of all that, the picture looks amazing.
deezdrama wrote: and set super resolutions?
You don't have to use super resolutions over analog-out. I just use native resolutions, like 256x240 and 320x240. For low res modern games like Sonic Mania (320x240), Bloodstained: CotM and Blaster Master Zero (400x240) I've found it easier to use native resolution, since they will go pillarboxed on super resolutions without 3rd party software to stretch them.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by maxtherabbit »

BazookaBen wrote: the 9A60 takes C-sync on V
:shock:
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buttersoft
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by buttersoft »

strayan wrote:At least one hdmi to YPbPr device will handle 240p: https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... o_your_tv/
I thought once I had crt_emudriver set up i'd never need to go digital-to-analog ever again, but i was wrong. I like threads like that one, and appreciate the contributions ppl make. The problem i see is that there's never enough testing or parameters to recommend the methods to other people looking for advice. I always end up with a ton of questions. Which Nvidia cards does this work with? Why, in general, do people trying to get 15kHz from Nvidia seem to have more luck with lower-end cards? Is HDMI actually capable of delivering 15kHz reliably, and if so what are the roadblocks and how do you overcome them? Are they the same roadblocks you get with VGA? And on...

There are always going to be solutions that work, I guess, but i find it a lot easier to recommend crt_emudriver most of the time.
Last edited by buttersoft on Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Taiyaki
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by Taiyaki »

It's just that not enough people on these boards are specialized in this very subject. If you want to find more on groovymame then the arcade control forums is where you'd want to be. Calamity is the best person to ask as he is responsible for emu drivers and groovymame upkeep in general. If you get lucky he might reply himself.
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buttersoft
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by buttersoft »

Oh I'm not in need of any help, at least not right now. With my video setup, anyway :)
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kitty666cats
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Re: DB15(VGA) to YPbPr component transcoder

Post by kitty666cats »

Digital to analog can open a world of possibilities, I've been so busy with work but some night soon I'm gonna attempt all the stupid different ways I could get OSSC output to display on my consumer set (I have a dickload of DACs). And, hell, if I can find one that looks AND works good (who knows which random cheap impulse device could end up amazing) on the WEGA, and find if it looks good on the USB3HDCAP w/ OBS, I'll have a happy accident on my hands!

Highly unlikely scenario right there, and I mostly do dumb stuff like "try to OSSC on 15kHz consumer CRT" for lulz. But if I experiment enough with all these wacky old converters/transcoders/displays I've been amassing, I can hope I find a neat trick for people! :D

EDIT:

Forgot to mention I have a Corio2 coming in the mail, so I can try to get real wacky with various newer consoles scaled back down to my WEGA haha. Or get weird again and see about shrinking back down OSSC's upscaled output back onto my consumer set. I'm not one of those people who's vehemently against a real teensy amount of lag! Some of these stupid situations I think of or brought up also factor in Extron devices, a HDMI splitter, etc.

I have a PVM that would be much less hassle for types of digital to analog situations, but I like the restrictions consumer sets give and the ways people get around them :3
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