Hi.
How can we make all the hardware systems that work in BVM-D Series work in BVM-A Series?
We always speak here of analog RGB signal. The purpose we treat here is exclusively to give a 100% universal and effective solution so that the glorious paradise SONY BVM-A Series monitors are compatible with the same as BVM-D Series if done successfully.
Sync problems are present in BVM-A Series due to its internal lack of: VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC).
How can we solve it? What external solution can provide VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC) to they BVM-A Series?
In my personal case I have the BVM-32A and I want to connect many Hardware systems, but they don't get Sync at all.
I want to create this theme and stay here permanently to help all of us who are the community that owns BVM-A Series with BKM-68X. Any help, however small, is always very welcome and grateful.
The hardware systems I've tried are Arcade consoles and PCBs that don't sync at all. These systems are vital and more than important for them in all their glory in RGB in BVM-A Series:
NEOGEO MVS: No Sync. No image.
CPS1 Final Fight: No Sync. No image.
Double Dragon Jamma PCB: No Sync. Unstable image.
Super Nintendo PAL (60Hz): No Sync. Unstable image.
Mega Drive PAL (60Hz): No Sync. Unstable image.
Super Nintendo / Super Famicom: Yes Sync. Stable image.
Nintendo 64 PAL (60Hz) (FRA RGB Mod): No Sync. Unstable image. Only work in PAL 50Hz but games are more Slows...
Genesis / Mega Drive NTSC: Yes Sync. Stable image, but on Master System Mode work, but with problem Sync in the Up.
Others PCB Jamma PCB and Arcade Systems: No Sync. Unstable Image and No image.
We have to fix this situation. I want this issue to become the official issue so we can solve it among all. BVM-A series are very expensive, and with BKM-68X much more expensive. For this reason we have to find an effective solution to these Sync problems. The greatness of BVM-A series in RGB mode is its great image quality, and this has to be the reason to boost this issue, even for much more than its market price.
It is a necessary solution and it has to exist. The way to somehow add a VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC) to BVM-A Series.
For example, FPGA externally and connect to the BNC socket of Sync to help adjust the Sync signal needed to display the image as the previous BVM-D Series model does. I appeal to enthusiastic and knowledgeable people to create a solution.
People like Fudoh, Artemio Urbina, Bob, the founder of RetroRGB, Phonedork, Savon Pat, Smokemonster, Markus Hiienkari, My live in Gamming, Mike Chi, Retro Tech, Tim Worthington, gscartsw, Digital Foundry, Srg320, Analogue, and all the people that I haven't mentioned right now and are equally important.
We need to be able to play CPS1, and MVS in BVM-A Series. We can get it together! BVM-A series is very important CRT monitor of history, it is very relevant because it is the revision and last great CRT High End manufactured in history and deserves to be fully squeezed with all the systems that exist, so that we can enjoy it all the time that You can give joy and happiness with its beautiful RGB image quality of paradise.
Interest Links related above:
https://www.retrorgb.com/bkm-68x.html
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57929
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=60403&hilit=Wonky+s ... un+Ikegami
SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sync!
-
fernan1234
- Posts: 2182
- Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
You probably already know this, but some, though not all, of the sync problems with these A-series monitors can be improved with an Extron RGB 580xi (which apparently perform better for this particular use case than the 201/202/203Rxi boxes, not sure about other older xi boxes).
The BKM-68X is so rare, which doesn't make finding a complete solution easy. These monitors are indeed something worth the effort though. Sometimes I wonder if they even surpassed the previous D-series ones. If only someone lucky/wealthy enough could put a D24/32 next to an A24/32 and do some comparisons!
The BKM-68X is so rare, which doesn't make finding a complete solution easy. These monitors are indeed something worth the effort though. Sometimes I wonder if they even surpassed the previous D-series ones. If only someone lucky/wealthy enough could put a D24/32 next to an A24/32 and do some comparisons!
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
They're about the same in quality. The A-Series doesn't offer anything over the D-Series and the sync issues are a pain. It's almost better to get an A-series and do a tube-swap with a broken D-series.
Also, the latest gscartsw's sync regeneration should help with a few consoles on the BKM-68x.
Also, the latest gscartsw's sync regeneration should help with a few consoles on the BKM-68x.
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
The question is on "which level" you want to fix this.
Without modifying the internals to increase compatibility with off spec sync signals or refresh rates, you can always build an external processing chain that will retain highest picture quality while allowing you to normalize the signal specs as far as possible. The general idea here is to linedouble your source signal, adjust the signal as neccesary and then reconvert to 15khz.
This is by far no perfect solution, but it's manageable, not too expensive, it works and for a home setup it's a very viable solution. All given that you already own a A-series BVM along with the 68X of course.
Without modifying the internals to increase compatibility with off spec sync signals or refresh rates, you can always build an external processing chain that will retain highest picture quality while allowing you to normalize the signal specs as far as possible. The general idea here is to linedouble your source signal, adjust the signal as neccesary and then reconvert to 15khz.
This is by far no perfect solution, but it's manageable, not too expensive, it works and for a home setup it's a very viable solution. All given that you already own a A-series BVM along with the 68X of course.
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
Wow... all these issues and a BKM-68X unit in used condition cost a fortune (they were still affordable back in early 2014, but prices skyrocketed since then), I know people here have discussed similar issues with Ikegami monitors, but honestly I have an HTM-1990R and it literally worked with everything I have used it with it so far.RGB-A wrote:NEOGEO MVS: No Sync. No image.
CPS1 Final Fight: No Sync. No image.
Double Dragon Jamma PCB: No Sync. Unstable image.
Super Nintendo PAL (60Hz): No Sync. Unstable image.
Mega Drive PAL (60Hz): No Sync. Unstable image.
Super Nintendo / Super Famicom: Yes Sync. Stable image.
Nintendo 64 PAL (60Hz) (FRA RGB Mod): No Sync. Unstable image. Only work in PAL 50Hz but games are more Slows...
Genesis / Mega Drive NTSC: Yes Sync. Stable image, but on Master System Mode work, but with problem Sync in the Up.
Others PCB Jamma PCB and Arcade Systems: No Sync. Unstable Image and No image.
-
SuperSpongo
- Posts: 319
- Joined: Sat Mar 17, 2018 2:49 pm
- Location: Germany
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
Who is this "We" you speak of? What are YOU gonna do? To me it seems like you want to find someone who solves your specific problem that you have a giant monitor with an expensive card which just isn't as good as the D32.
Sure, it would also benefit the handful of people who have similar setups. But with words like "the glorious paradise SONY BVM-A Series monitors", you are painting a picture that if only this small problem can be solved, suddenly everybody can have a Multiformat 32 inch monitor for 50 Dollars.
The reality is that the prices are higher than ever. There's two BKM-68X cards available on ebay right now. One for 3100 Dollars in the US, one for an equivalent of 2800 Dollars in Germany.
I know I'm being harsh, but I don't think any talented developers are going to shell out 3 grand to develop a solution for the A series anytime soon. My advice would be to cut your losses, sell the thing and buy a superior D24. That's just the way it is.
Sure, it would also benefit the handful of people who have similar setups. But with words like "the glorious paradise SONY BVM-A Series monitors", you are painting a picture that if only this small problem can be solved, suddenly everybody can have a Multiformat 32 inch monitor for 50 Dollars.
The reality is that the prices are higher than ever. There's two BKM-68X cards available on ebay right now. One for 3100 Dollars in the US, one for an equivalent of 2800 Dollars in Germany.
I know I'm being harsh, but I don't think any talented developers are going to shell out 3 grand to develop a solution for the A series anytime soon. My advice would be to cut your losses, sell the thing and buy a superior D24. That's just the way it is.
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
First of all, thank you all for contributing and responding. Hard comments are also very welcome. Everything builds.
It is certainly sad that BVM series A has those problems with synchronization. Any frequency other than PAL 50Hz, and NTSC 60Hz, will be ignored by this monitor. It just doesn't sync, and this really important here because they are the last best CRT monitors in the world that exist and are usually the least used. Certainly an improved revision of the D series at the revision level is always an improvement. These have the most modern and new parts ever manufactured for BVM series.
The BVM of the D series are certainly more attractive because they show practically everything. But this issue is not about them, because we know them well. The issue discussed here is how to equate the A series so that they show the same as the D series.
Like it or not, this is the last great Highend CRT monitor that exists and if there is something about the face of the earth that deserves to be helped it is BVM series A. Especially people like me who have the BVM A 32 model. Personally pay for the around 600USD about 4 years ago, and the BKM-68X cost me the ridiculous price of 30USD. I use the monitor happily with Sega Saturn, Megadrive / Genesis, PC, new generation consoles using DAC HDMI to VGA adapter. 90% of all consoles are seen in BVM series A. Some minority of systems such as Master System, and Pcengine are perfectly seen with external help such as the Extron box, or last generation multiScart boxes.
The real problem in Series A is the absence of: VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC)!
And this is where a solution would have to be found. Because even the most economical TV with the worst image quality in the world with an RGB signal will show all kinds of Arcade Jamma, MVS, and other frequencies outside the normal normal PAL and NTSC.
When SONY created the BVM series A, they thought of a main digital use, and neglected the analog use as an old priority. They, in my opinion, made a mistake in doing that, and by selling the analog video input BKM-68X separately, as an accessory, when it should have come next to the monitor from the factory.
Where is the VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC) at the circuit level in the BVM D series? Is it possible to add it in some way to the BVM A series? That's why I exposed an external solution in some way.
I do not mind playing 10% of systems not compatible with BVM series A on another alternative monitor or CRT screen, but I am calling for a 100% effective solution to be compatible with all systems in series A with BKM- 68X
The solution to climb externally I do not like, it seems an aberration, if I am allowed the term here. The reason for being and existing of these monitors is to reproduce their original 15KHz signal, for example fully respected with a dreamlike analytical image.
I thought of another solution but it seems extreme and I would not, which is to change the quartz of incompatible systems, to replace them with quartz with the NTSC 60Hz standard. This would show the image in an MVS in the BVM series A. In a very extreme case I prefer this to any type of scaling or chain conversion.
If there is any monitor that deserves this call and effort is this. No other. Is this! The best ever created High End BVM reviewed mostly in 32 inches. This monitor will always be with me while it works. His image is the RGB paradise, nothing looks the same. The BVM series D in 32 inches is very difficult to find and expensive, they also suffered from tube deaths, problems with precision in black which was a scandal by SONY that had to assume the guarantee for such an excessively expensive monitor that later in the most recent ones it was corrected before releasing series A. To this it adds that being older, its pieces are older and worn. Certainly the A series is a revision and it is better to correct things, but Sony made the mistake of focusing the A series in a digital and non-analog environment. My BVM-A 32 is from 2007, with little use, and the original tube, without manipulation, or recalibrated from doubtful reliability after a tube replacement as happens in many 32-inch D series.
It is certainly sad that BVM series A has those problems with synchronization. Any frequency other than PAL 50Hz, and NTSC 60Hz, will be ignored by this monitor. It just doesn't sync, and this really important here because they are the last best CRT monitors in the world that exist and are usually the least used. Certainly an improved revision of the D series at the revision level is always an improvement. These have the most modern and new parts ever manufactured for BVM series.
The BVM of the D series are certainly more attractive because they show practically everything. But this issue is not about them, because we know them well. The issue discussed here is how to equate the A series so that they show the same as the D series.
Like it or not, this is the last great Highend CRT monitor that exists and if there is something about the face of the earth that deserves to be helped it is BVM series A. Especially people like me who have the BVM A 32 model. Personally pay for the around 600USD about 4 years ago, and the BKM-68X cost me the ridiculous price of 30USD. I use the monitor happily with Sega Saturn, Megadrive / Genesis, PC, new generation consoles using DAC HDMI to VGA adapter. 90% of all consoles are seen in BVM series A. Some minority of systems such as Master System, and Pcengine are perfectly seen with external help such as the Extron box, or last generation multiScart boxes.
The real problem in Series A is the absence of: VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC)!
And this is where a solution would have to be found. Because even the most economical TV with the worst image quality in the world with an RGB signal will show all kinds of Arcade Jamma, MVS, and other frequencies outside the normal normal PAL and NTSC.
When SONY created the BVM series A, they thought of a main digital use, and neglected the analog use as an old priority. They, in my opinion, made a mistake in doing that, and by selling the analog video input BKM-68X separately, as an accessory, when it should have come next to the monitor from the factory.
Where is the VCR Mode / Automatic Frequency Control (AFC) at the circuit level in the BVM D series? Is it possible to add it in some way to the BVM A series? That's why I exposed an external solution in some way.
I do not mind playing 10% of systems not compatible with BVM series A on another alternative monitor or CRT screen, but I am calling for a 100% effective solution to be compatible with all systems in series A with BKM- 68X
The solution to climb externally I do not like, it seems an aberration, if I am allowed the term here. The reason for being and existing of these monitors is to reproduce their original 15KHz signal, for example fully respected with a dreamlike analytical image.
I thought of another solution but it seems extreme and I would not, which is to change the quartz of incompatible systems, to replace them with quartz with the NTSC 60Hz standard. This would show the image in an MVS in the BVM series A. In a very extreme case I prefer this to any type of scaling or chain conversion.
If there is any monitor that deserves this call and effort is this. No other. Is this! The best ever created High End BVM reviewed mostly in 32 inches. This monitor will always be with me while it works. His image is the RGB paradise, nothing looks the same. The BVM series D in 32 inches is very difficult to find and expensive, they also suffered from tube deaths, problems with precision in black which was a scandal by SONY that had to assume the guarantee for such an excessively expensive monitor that later in the most recent ones it was corrected before releasing series A. To this it adds that being older, its pieces are older and worn. Certainly the A series is a revision and it is better to correct things, but Sony made the mistake of focusing the A series in a digital and non-analog environment. My BVM-A 32 is from 2007, with little use, and the original tube, without manipulation, or recalibrated from doubtful reliability after a tube replacement as happens in many 32-inch D series.
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
That's quite the hyperbole, don't you thinkRGB-A wrote:Like it or not, this is the last great Highend CRT monitor that exists and if there is something about the face of the earth that deserves to be helped it is BVM series A. Especially people like me who have the BVM A 32 model.
If I'm not wrong the upper-skew problem can be solved by using any Extron RGB interface with ADSP (160xi, 164xi, 203xi, 580xi, etc). Another thing, if easy to find, would be to look for the s-video/composite input board since they might have moved the AFC circuity in there from the main boards (just a wild guess, don't hold me to it). As for the inability to sync at all with some PAL consoles (or off-spec refresh rates) that's typical of the A-series, this has nothing to do with the AFC circuit (or lack thereof) and my feeling is that it's not going to be solved anytime soon (but I'd like to be wrong).
Also, while I don't own either of them, I would say that the concept of the A-series being inferior to the D-series because of the lack of AFC circuitry in the main boards is ludicrous and narrow-minded
Re: SONY BVM-A Series only RGB mode with BKM-68X solution Sy
TBH if you're going the A series route I'd say just skip modded PAL consoles all together. Using American or Japanese systems give you far less trouble overall. I haven't used any JAMMA boards or MVS on anything but arcade cabinets when I had one so I cannot comment on that.
I do agree with you (OP) however that the BVM-A series is underrated. I bought my A24 for HD content and fell for it completely. Sure I love my D24 as well but the A24 is essentially perfection as far as overall PQ goes (color accuracy, stability, gamma curve, white balance etc.). However I'm not sure if I'd recommend it for someone looking for a retro gaming monitor, as there are certainly cheaper and more obtainable options out there. At least it's not what you shouldn't primarily seek out for, but if you're ever offered one then I'd certainly say you can consider it.
EDIT: I've heard that the 68X is, despite very picky for 15-24KHz, very tolerable for line frequencies at 31KHz or above. That should certainly be worth keeping in mind for PC gaming.
I do agree with you (OP) however that the BVM-A series is underrated. I bought my A24 for HD content and fell for it completely. Sure I love my D24 as well but the A24 is essentially perfection as far as overall PQ goes (color accuracy, stability, gamma curve, white balance etc.). However I'm not sure if I'd recommend it for someone looking for a retro gaming monitor, as there are certainly cheaper and more obtainable options out there. At least it's not what you shouldn't primarily seek out for, but if you're ever offered one then I'd certainly say you can consider it.
EDIT: I've heard that the 68X is, despite very picky for 15-24KHz, very tolerable for line frequencies at 31KHz or above. That should certainly be worth keeping in mind for PC gaming.