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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:29 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 406
fernan1234 wrote:
Thanks.

I have exactly one machine that I'd be interested to pair with something like this, a PC-FX, which only does S-video at best. I hook it up directly to a BVM with Y/C input and it looks very nice, but of course less sharp and a colors bit duller than RGB would. If a converter like this adequately separates the color signals for the monitor, I'd imagine the result would be an improvement over direct S-video.


Ah. I have a PC-FX myself.

The loss in sharpness and the dullness of the colors you see is the result of the S-Video encoding itself. You'll never get that quality back no matter what is decoding the signals back to RGB.

The Y/C processing inside your BVM is almost certainly more sophisticated and produces a better picture than what's inside the YR-421. It really wouldn't be useful for you. I would never use mine on a monitor that had built-in S-Video support. I only got it because I have three really good Ikegami HTM monitors that have nothing other than RGB/YPbPr inputs on them.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:22 am 


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SamIAm wrote:
Ah. I have a PC-FX myself.

The loss in sharpness and the dullness of the colors you see is the result of the S-Video encoding itself. You'll never get that quality back no matter what is decoding the signals back to RGB.

The Y/C processing inside your BVM is almost certainly more sophisticated and produces a better picture than what's inside the YR-421. It really wouldn't be useful for you. I would never use mine on a monitor that had built-in S-Video support. I only got it because I have three really good Ikegami HTM monitors that have nothing other than RGB/YPbPr inputs on them.


Just curious, are you the guy working on Princess Crown?


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:46 am 



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Lawfer wrote:
Just curious, are you the guy working on Princess Crown?


Aye.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:57 am 


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SamIAm wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
Just curious, are you the guy working on Princess Crown?


Aye.


I see, been waiting for it, good job and good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 12:46 pm 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 406
Thanks! Hope you like it when it's done. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 1:41 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 708
SamIAm wrote:

Ah. I have a PC-FX myself.

The loss in sharpness and the dullness of the colors you see is the result of the S-Video encoding itself. You'll never get that quality back no matter what is decoding the signals back to RGB.

The Y/C processing inside your BVM is almost certainly more sophisticated and produces a better picture than what's inside the YR-421. It really wouldn't be useful for you. I would never use mine on a monitor that had built-in S-Video support. I only got it because I have three really good Ikegami HTM monitors that have nothing other than RGB/YPbPr inputs on them.


I see. I was having some unreasonable hope that the Sony wizards figured out a way to reconstruct, or most likely make a guess of, some of the degradation caused by the S-video encoding.

BTW, on PC-FX I'm currently playing Megami Paradise/Tengoku II. What a unique game! Never seen such a gameplay system anywhere else. It's overall the kind of distinct gameplay that the PC-FX seemed to target (demanding a lot of player interaction and patience, combining multiple game genres, with time tracking and day/season cycles, etc.), like Blue Breaker. It's sad that the PC-FX failed as badly as it did and that in the West it's mostly known as an adult adventure game system. Anyway, in case you haven't, I really recommend checking that game out.

BTW2, thanks for your work in translating Princess Crown, it's a very pretty game and it's nice that it'll reach more players with a translation.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:38 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
We should avoid using composite whenever possible

I feel the same way about Y/C lol

they are both substandard as hell compared to YPbPr/RGB


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:06 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
orange808 wrote:
We should avoid using composite whenever possible

I feel the same way about Y/C lol

they are both substandard as hell compared to YPbPr/RGB


Of course.

But, svideo has a huge advantage over composite. It can be processed and upscaled to a sharp digital display without the aid of a comb filter.

And, *truly* good comb filters are very rare. Truly good ones that handle 240p properly and don't add some lag probably don't exist.
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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:18 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
orange808 wrote:
We should avoid using composite whenever possible

I feel the same way about Y/C lol

they are both substandard as hell compared to YPbPr/RGB


That goes without saying, but in some cases it's unavoidable, for example try to get RGB or YPbPr from an FM Towns Marty, the best you can get will be S-Video.


SamIAm wrote:
I only got it because I have three really good Ikegami HTM monitors that have nothing other than RGB/YPbPr inputs on them.


Same issue here, there ain't even any optional add-on card module to add S-Video either.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:37 pm 



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 11
SamIAm wrote:
Thanks! Hope you like it when it's done. :D


2019 and 2020 are great years for the Saturn, gawdayum. Grandia, Sakura Wars, Lunar, Princess Crown, wireless controllers... whew!


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:32 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 406
Lawfer wrote:
That goes without saying, but in some cases it's unavoidable, for example try to get RGB or YPbPr from an FM Towns Marty, the best you can get will be S-Video.


The PC-FX is similar. It's got four separate chips doing various kinds of video processing, and IIRC two of them work in RGB while two are in YUV. It would be enormously complicated to create some kind of bus-sniffing digital processor like what's available for the NES, and since the potential audience is vanishingly small, it'll mostly likely never happen.

Quote:
Same issue here, there ain't even any optional add-on card module to add S-Video either.


I seem to remember you having a 1990R?

It's a shame, there is a table in some Ikegami literature out there that says S-Video would be available as an "option", but the list of actual expansion boards that I've found doesn't have anything like that. Just a regular old NTSC/PAL board.

(I actually have an NTSC board, but it's broken.)

fernan1234 wrote:
BTW, on PC-FX I'm currently playing Megami Paradise/Tengoku II. What a unique game! Never seen such a gameplay system anywhere else. It's overall the kind of distinct gameplay that the PC-FX seemed to target (demanding a lot of player interaction and patience, combining multiple game genres, with time tracking and day/season cycles, etc.), like Blue Breaker. It's sad that the PC-FX failed as badly as it did and that in the West it's mostly known as an adult adventure game system. Anyway, in case you haven't, I really recommend checking that game out.


That is the game that I would say is the most PC-FX PC-FX game, if that makes any sense (not a typo). It's also interesting in that unlike Blue Breaker and Fire Woman Matoigumi, it was never ported to another console.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:13 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1024
svensonson wrote:
good news! I`ve been waiting for something similar for some time until I came across a corio2.

I used a Corio2 2205 to transcode composite and s-video into ypbpr and even rgbs. C64 and MSX never looked better on a CRT.

I don't think I've ever used CV or YC on my Corio2's. How do you get it to convert without scaling? (I'm assuming you still want to use it in SD since you mentioned a CRT).




SamIAm wrote:
There is another Japan-only product that converts S-Video to RGB called the YR-421. It was actually made by Sony in the late 80s for certain models of their Profeel Pro monitors that didn't have S-Video inputs built in. You can only buy it via auction anymore, but if you're patient, it can be had for 1000-2000 yen, and listings appear surprisingly often.

https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w351139563

I have one of these and it's...OK. To be honest, when running a comparison on a pro monitor that has both S-Video and RGB inputs, the monitor's built-in S-Video inputs are obviously better, even after having recapped the YR-421. Nonetheless, if I were stuck with one monitor that didn't have S-Video inputs, I'd be very happy to have it.

SamIAm wrote:
Sync output is still sync-on-luma, though. I had to mod in an LM1881 inside mine to make it work with my matrix switch.


I've owned two of these YR-412's, could never get them to work right (and it's been so long I honestly forget what was wrong with them). Did you just replace every cap on it? Think I still have one somewhere around here and have a desoldering gun too....

Will also have to double check that I wasn't looping it in/out of my Crosspoint either (pretty sure the first one I got was before I used my Crosspoint for testing everything like I do now), because that would make it not work if it doesn't output csync.




For other units which will do CV and/or YC to RGBS or YPbPr I really like the Kramer FC-4044. I've had three of them so far, and think my first unit needed the largest cap replaced? but then worked perfect. Next two after that (which I still have) were perfect. Can output RGBS or YPbPr as well (I probably used the YPbPr at some point but usually only do RGBS). There's been maybe 6ish on eBay in the last year or so, so not super easy to find but they come up from time to time at least.

Other Kramers can do this as well but all those have been jacked up for me in some way so I can only recommend the 4044.

Extron makes the Extron CD 400 as well, which is a pretty old unit, but the one I scored off eBay looks great. I just use the Kramer because that's rack mountable and the Extron isn't (has a plastic case for some reason). Multiple ones on eBay now, but find one who will accept a 'best offer' for a LOT less than those are up for now.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:47 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 406
Dochartaigh wrote:
I've owned two of these YR-412's, could never get them to work right (and it's been so long I honestly forget what was wrong with them). Did you just replace every cap on it? Think I still have one somewhere around here and have a desoldering gun too....

Will also have to double check that I wasn't looping it in/out of my Crosspoint either (pretty sure the first one I got was before I used my Crosspoint for testing everything like I do now), because that would make it not work if it doesn't output csync.


Yeah, I replaced every cap. I also checked the sync on an oscilloscope, and it was definitely sync-on-luma.

I didn't know about those Kramer units. I'd love to try one. The YR-421 definitely left room for improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:48 am 


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kitty666cats wrote:
SamIAm wrote:
Thanks! Hope you like it when it's done. :D


2019 and 2020 are great years for the Saturn, gawdayum. Grandia, Sakura Wars, Lunar, Princess Crown, wireless controllers... whew!

Princess Crown and Satiator at the very top of the most anticipated upcoming Saturn news, definitely.

(sorry more OT but I couldn't help)
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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Fri Nov 29, 2019 6:22 pm 


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SamIAm wrote:
The PC-FX is similar. It's got four separate chips doing various kinds of video processing, and IIRC two of them work in RGB while two are in YUV. It would be enormously complicated to create some kind of bus-sniffing digital processor like what's available for the NES, and since the potential audience is vanishingly small, it'll mostly likely never happen.


Yeah less popular and most obscure consoles such as the PC-FX and FM Towns Marty who never came outside of Japan and only have games in Japanese as a result (except for 1 or 2 PC-FX games who got a fan-translation) have no RGB modding solutions unlike the most popular ones (NES, N64 etc.)


SamIAm wrote:
I seem to remember you having a 1990R?


Yep that's the one I got.


SamIAm wrote:
It's a shame, there is a table in some Ikegami literature out there that says S-Video would be available as an "option", but the list of actual expansion boards that I've found doesn't have anything like that. Just a regular old NTSC/PAL board.


Interesting! I looked for something like that 2 years ago or so but found zero information on it, might you have the model number? Just curious, cause I thought that it didn't even exist, I think there is one for Composite but like I said for S-Video I found zero info on it so thought that it didn't exist.


Xyga wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
SamIAm wrote:
Thanks! Hope you like it when it's done. :D


2019 and 2020 are great years for the Saturn, gawdayum. Grandia, Sakura Wars, Lunar, Princess Crown, wireless controllers... whew!

Princess Crown and Satiator at the very top of the most anticipated upcoming Saturn news, definitely.

(sorry more OT but I couldn't help)


Lunar? Haven't heard of that, tried to google found zero info. I have both Lunar on PS1 (USA versions).


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Sat Nov 30, 2019 1:49 am 



Joined: 03 Mar 2005
Posts: 406
Lawfer wrote:
Interesting! I looked for something like that 2 years ago or so but found zero information on it, might you have the model number? Just curious, cause I thought that it didn't even exist, I think there is one for Composite but like I said for S-Video I found zero info on it so thought that it didn't exist.


I can't find the the one that says S-Video would be available just now, but I'll keep looking.

http://www.broadcaststore.com/pdf/model ... 5_1505.pdf

This gives a nice list of boards that actually do exist.


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2019 9:31 pm 


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I see an "Input Change" button.

Please tell me that this device can remember the last input it was set to when powered off then back on. Or that the default can be set somehow. Or, if both of those are false, that the default is s-video.

I'm really hoping the Koryuu can simplify my automatic setup. For that to be true I need 2 things.
1. It cannot output any sync signal when there's no input sync.
*It made me really sad that the RetroTink X2 outputs a test pattern by default.
2. It has to either automatically detect which input is active and switch to it. Or, allow me to have 2 separate Koryuu's hooked up that are each poised to handle different inputs.

If #2 is a spectacular failure. I can at least set up a passive transcode from cvbs to s-video. But if that falls apart as well if the default input is cvbs.
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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:39 pm 



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 11
I wonder how this thing would look with my LaserDisc player, as LaserDiscs were natively recorded in composite. Curious!


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 Post subject: Re: Koryuu (Composite & S-Video to YPbPr Transcoder) Coming
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2019 6:41 pm 



Joined: 05 Nov 2019
Posts: 11
Lawfer wrote:
Lunar? Haven't heard of that, tried to google found zero info. I have both Lunar on PS1 (USA versions).


MsTea is the person working on Lunar, some info on it on SegaXtreme but I believe the most info is on the Lunar-Net messageboard


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