GroovyMame on 2nd GPU? - Please help me plan my new build!

[BuckoA51]

Bit of background to start with. I'm lucky enough to have a multisync CRT attached to my PC and I've been playing around with emulators and stuff on it. Currently, with GroovyMAME, I cannot use CRT Emudriver due to me being on an Nvidia card. Instead, I experimented using 640x480 and a scanline generator and honestly the results weren't terrible, but I cannot get windows to send any refresh below 60hz (not even 59.xxx). I'd like to at least take advantage of the refresh rate matching CRT_Emudriver can do.

I wanted to build a new rig in the new year (time and cash permitting). I will absolutely be using this machine for modern gaming, including Gsync on my LG Oled when they push the firmware update out. However, I'd really like to have a GroovyMAME setup too. I want to stick to Nvidia for modern gaming.

My main question is, how viable would it be to build a fast PC with two GPUs? One modern Nvidia GPU for modern games and one ATI GPU for Groovy?

I understand that having two video cards can sometimes reduce PCI express bandwidth, but I could look for a board with 2 x 16x lanes OR disable the card in device manager when not in use (would that work and get the full 16x bandwidth back?)

My second option would be to retrofit my existing PC with a ATI card and simply use that as the Groovy Mame machine, though I won't be able to set frame delay as high in that case.

Building a separate, high spec PC just for Groovy would be difficult. I'm limited on space in this room and I don't think I could realistically budget for buying two very fast Intel systems.

Your thoughts please everyone?

[Fudoh]

Can't answer your question (while I personally think you won't be able to output 15khz from a secondary GPU), but

Building a separate, high spec PC just for Groovy would be difficult. I'm limited on space in this room and I don't think I could realistically budget for buying two very fast Intel systems.

aren't many of the AMD CPUs capable of utilize CRT Emu Driver even without a dedicated GPU? I'm thinking of an Asrock Desk Mini, fit in a capable CPU and use CRT Emu driver on that one.

[Xyga]

Could you please be more specific?
What's that 'multisync CRT' you're talking about, it could mean several things.
Describe your current PC more: OS ? nVidia card ?

(note: nVidia cards do support at least a limited number of custom modes, it's called the 'static' method for Groovy and RA, not as great as the 100% refresh match Emudrivers allow but it works. More worrying would be why you can't use even that method with your CRT, in your place I would investigate)


Anyway can't answer about two different cards on the same PC, but it's usually recommended to make a dedicated machine for Groovy.
An often hinted at setup for instance;
- a used Dell Optiplex (at least SFF size iirc) with an i5-3470 and W7 would probably support most games
- you shove a low profile R7 240 or 250 in (or somethng from the HD series but at least 5000 series, not lower)
- CRT_EMudriver
-

It's just an idea of setup but something in that fashion is much less trouble, doesn't take much room, and doesn't cost too much either (you could manage for like 250 in total I guess, less if you're a good hunter)
W10 should be okay too but I've read about various trouble with it which means more hassle some day by Murphy's law so meh, I personally chose to stick to 7 for my dedicated retro-emu PC.

aren't many of the AMD CPUs capable of utilize CRT Emu Driver even without a dedicated GPU? I'm thinking of an Asrock Desk Mini, fit in a capable CPU and use CRT Emu driver on that one.

APUs are hit or miss, and potentially heavy troubleshooting for semi-hits. I'd be careful.
For instance some recent ready-pc's featuring APUs are not supported even though the brand name 'Vega' is used in the specs.
For older ones it's also dependent on several things like how the mobo was designed by the manufacturer, not all of them have an actual useable VGA out.

[Fudoh]

not all of them have an actual useable VGA out.

is that an actual requirement of CRT_Emu_Driver?

[Xyga]

Not for CRT_Emudriver per-se, it will install on most but the very latest cards/chips I think, but if you want a working 15KHz analogue output supporting low dotclocks with it (= no messing with super resolutions, transcoders and sync issues) then yes it does.

We see a lot of people going for anything but the most straightforward and simple setup for Groovy (which is a strong Intel, discrete Emudrivers-compatible AMD, and W7), well no question they have more trouble making stuff work afterwards.

I only ever recommend the easy/sure route, though I could maybe add the refinement 'lurk if you want ATOM15 compatibility bc not all GPUs support that' afaik.

[Fudoh]

for me it really comes down the chassis size. Even the smalled custom built setup with place for a dedicated GPU is so much bigger than a setup running with integrated graphics.

But talking about it: the Deskmini A300 actually has a VGA output, so that's not a bad start. And matching AM4 SPUs are available with plenty of different graphics cores (R5, R7, Vega 3, Vega 8 and Vega 11). If any of those is capable of proper support for CRT Emu Driver, then this would be a nice choice for a dedicated setup. The case measures a mere 15x15cm.

https://www.asrock.com/nettop/AMD/DeskM ... %20Series/

Do you know up to date ressources where one could check for video modes properly running on the above graphics cores?

EDIT: Calamity's posting on the Asrock A300. What works and what doesn't: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... msg1694140

[Xyga]

If you expect a list there isn't one, APU setups are really black boxes not because of their integrated GPUs but because of the mobos, some people report success, some fail.
How could one know for sure in advance anyway ? mobo manufacturer's docs aren't so comprehensive that they'll tell you "go on with custom modes over vga or hdmi etc, we made it possible so dont worry"

Here's one of Calamity's recent experiments with an Asrock: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.p ... c=159988.0
Scroll down to Reply #32
Quite underwhelming.

for me it really comes down the chassis size.

Yes it seems it's what all people who get into trouble strive for as a priority.
Not saying you can't but you need to make sure, maybe buying the exact same setup as anyone over at BYOAC who built a working one.

Personally I go for compatibility and performance first, convenience comes in third place.
An Optiplex SFF is like 30x30x10, if I wanted slightly smaller I would go custom from a micro-ATX and use my imagination but I doubt I could do much better, or mini-ITX but it's complicated stuff.
Yes, just to keep the option of using a real discrete AMD card, that's how much I don't like/trust APU setups. :p

edit: lol we cross-posted the Asrock story. seriously would you be fine dealing with that ?

EDIT; found some Optiplex 7010 SFF i5-3570 (4cores 3.4~3.8GHz 2000+STP) with W7 or W10 like between 100 and 180 zeni, and AMD R7 240 2GB or R7 250 2GB for 30~50 zeni.
Which means you can have quite the machine (that CPU ain't shit) with one of the best two Low Profile cards featuring analogue out, for slightly under 200 zeni.
Those with an i5-3470 are almost as powerful, just slightly under the symbolic 2000 STP bar, but I doubt that'll make a visible difference.
Same for the R7 240 vs 250, one is probably in the 600~800Mhz ballpark, the other 800~1000Mhz but if you're going to use this on a CRT both should perform the same.
Hell, hunting carefully on the bay you could get one such config for like 150 zeni.
If 30x30x10 is too big, well ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[BuckoA51]

Could you please be more specific?
What's that 'multisync CRT' you're talking about, it could mean several things.

It's a Mitsubishi Megaview XC-3730C that can display 15khz and 31khz modes. It's connected via a HD Fury Nano.

Describe your current PC more: OS ? nVidia card ?

Windows 10 Pro
16 GB Ram
Core i7 4790k 4ghz
GeForce GTX 1080 Ti

(note: nVidia cards do support at least a limited number of custom modes, it's called the 'static' method for Groovy and RA, not as great as the 100% refresh match Emudrivers allow but it works. More worrying would be why you can't use even that method with your CRT, in your place I would investigate)

I have no idea about this. I tried to add a custom mode with refresh rate of 59hz in Nvidia control panel and wasn't having any of it.
Switchres thing just always forces refresh rate to 60hz. I'm using arcade_31 as my monitor in switchres options.

Anyway can't answer about two different cards on the same PC, but it's usually recommended to make a dedicated machine for Groovy.

Seems a shame if I'm building a fast PC for modern games that I can't use that CPU for Groovy for the whole frame_delay thing that makes the emulation really low latency. I read that a very fast CPU is necessary for this on all but the older games?

Maybe I should just try this in my existing PC and see what happens. If it fails, I can always use the card in another build or a re-purposed older PC.

[Xyga]

I have no idea about this. I tried to add a custom mode with refresh rate of 59hz in Nvidia control panel and wasn't having any of it.
Switchres thing just always forces refresh rate to 60hz. I'm using arcade_31 as my monitor in switchres options.

Dunno there, maybe it's the HD Fury, or the arcade_31 setting, you're gonna have to ask the specialists at BYOAC.

You'd expect to be able to create several 640x480@**Hz modes, but if it's 59 maybe one already labelled as such exists (for 59.94) and you ought to erase that one before creating your own real 59Hz mode.
Anyway if 58, 57, 56 etc don't work either, then something's in the way (just hope it's not the MegaView that would be awful)

Seems a shame if I'm building a fast PC for modern games that I can't use that CPU for Groovy for the whole frame_delay thing that makes the emulation really low latency. I read that a very fast CPU is necessary for this on all but the older games?

Maybe I should just try this in my existing PC and see what happens. If it fails, I can always use the card in another build or a re-purposed older PC.

Frame delay is extra demanding ON FLAT PANELS. ^^
But on CRTs it's quite okay, check my previous post edit about Optiplexes, there should be no problem with even those old i5's and R7's pushing frame_delay to 7~8 on most games but the heavier ones like Taito Gnet, Sega STV etc. Dunno how much on Cave CV1000 but I'd bet practically the same 7~8 in the best case, probabaly 6~7 in the worst, but both cases mean you have less than half a frame of lag anyway, which is blazing fast.

I understand one would want only one PC, but in your case you should maybe just swap that 1080 Ti for a Vega 64, though you would lose out and I don't know if LG have plans for FreeSync support on your OLED side...

If you ever find how to add an AMD to your PC and successfully use it for proper Groovy, well that'll solve your problem and it'll be interesting to read about later if you share the story. ^^

[SamIAm]

I recently picked up an SSF-sized Optiplex, with an i5-4570 and an HD 5450 bought separately, on Xyga's suggestion. I'm pretty happy with it! It might not be fashionably small, but in terms of pure utility the size is very easy to work with, inside and out. Here in Japan, the total cost was about ￥11,000 including shipping, and I'm currently considering whether to drop a little more on an SSD.

[Xyga]

I recently picked up an SSF-sized Optiplex, with an i5-4570 and an HD 5450 bought separately, on Xyga's suggestion. I'm pretty happy with it! It might not be fashionably small, but in terms of pure utility the size is very easy to work with, inside and out. Here in Japan, the total cost was about ￥11,000 including shipping, and I'm currently considering whether to drop a little more on an SSD.

Glad you found yours!

What OS did it come with ? (or none maybe)

It's tough finding parts this cheap in the west though not impossible through auctions.

How's the frame_delay performance on heavy games like the late Cave CV1000 ?

SSF-sized

You too can't help but make that typo ?


EDIT: look at this guy upgrade a 7010 SSF, it's the size of a console and child's play to customize: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7K2rslHnac
I have plans for a higher-end emu rig, otherwise I would pick up one of those now for the pleasure and ease of it, just ideal for a Groovy CRT setup (also good for several more emulators)
Damned Pi's and APUs still don't match the level of performance, accuracy, and convenience a proper PC setup with W7/10, a discrete AMD+Emudrivers grants, so if a little more size is the tradeoff, it is massively at the user's advantage.

[Syntax]

I'm pretty sure that SSF build would not work.
The PSU in them are extremely low capacity and usually die on much smaller cards.

Ive heard nothing but trouble from people trying to use them in gaming builds but maybe they have progressed.


Looking through the comments on youtube I find

"The gtx 1050 ti needs a minimum of 300watts. Did you get any problems with the 240watts PSU?"


Recently I had a similar project, needed a PC for DOSBox games and had no space for it.

I had a P4 Windows 2000 case id found on roadside years back and decided to fit a low profile Dell into it.
Now it fits nicely under my Sony Mutiscan and suits the color too. USB 3.0 on the front, all the bells and whistles

Whole setup cost around $100 AUD

Spoiler

[/img]

[Fudoh]

"The gtx 1050 ti needs a minimum of 300watts. Did you get any problems with the 240watts PSU?"

video cards without a dedicated power connector have a limited draw of max. 75 watts. Even with a 240W PSU, it should easily run, especially since there's most likely only a 45W or 65W CPU inside the machine.

[Xyga]

@Syntax

Who recommends a 1050 Ti ? (edit: okay, I've linked that video only to show the bulk and ease of use of the SFF optiplex, not to recommend a GPU)

We're talking about low-profile R7 240 or 250 (the Dell OEM GPU was a R7 250 by the way, and highest CPU was i7 3770 I think)

That's all you need for CRT setup anyway, even lesser models can do.

Recommending an old Optiplex was never meant for anything but that, not for a general gaming PC for modern PC games. ^^

Also; can you seriously recommend a P4 today ? >< Would it run CV1000 games with high frame_delay ? plus MAME is slightly multi-core optimized these days, on a single core you're losing maybe 10~30% performance depending on the driver)


@Fudoh, I think more modern LP cards like the RX 460, 550, 560 will work (w/ a transcoder tho), but they're unnecessary if we're only talking MAME and stuff like that.
Welp, I think those do >FreeSync if that mtters, but then what's the point of building a PC for Emudrivers...

[Syntax]

@Syntax

Also; can you seriously recommend a P4 today ? >< Would it run CV1000 games with high frame_delay ? plus MAME is slightly multi-core optimized these days, on a single core you're losing maybe 10~30% performance depending on the driver)

Take a closer look.
Its a Dell Optiplex 390 with an upgraded i5 2400 and GT 710 inside the P4 case.
Absolutely munches Mame and Dosbox. Silent and super low power consumption compared to my gaming rig. They were a great suggestion.
The whole reason I did it is because of how painful running games on the P4 was lol.

[SamIAm]

Glad you found yours!

What OS did it come with ? (or none maybe)

Windows 10.

It's tough finding parts this cheap in the west though not impossible through auctions.

Here I was thinking the opposite was true. I didn't check ebay thoroughly, but it did seem to me that Optiplexes were going for a bit less there, actually.

How's the frame_delay performance on heavy games like the late Cave CV1000 ?

Heh, you're way ahead of me. Right now, I'm just sitting down with this thing for the first time and trying to shovel all of the excess crap out of Windows 10. This system is not even going to be connected to the internet, so I'm really going scorched-earth on it.

You too can't help but make that typo ?

Doh!

[Xyga]

Take a closer look.
Its a Dell Optiplex 390 with an upgraded i5 2400 and GT 710 inside the P4 case.

Look where? sorry I've missed the part where you tell/show about that upgrade.

Anyway out of curiousity how's the performance on that one, does that i5 run the CV1000 games?
And if by chance you're using Groovy how's the frame_delay performance ?

(I always ask people since it's the most important question for sorting out the various configurations ^^)

Heh, you're way ahead of me. Right now, I'm just sitting down with this thing for the first time and trying to shovel all of the excess crap out of Windows 10.

Oh my, yes that will take some time.

[BuckoA51]

You'd expect to be able to create several 640x480@**Hz modes, but if it's 59 maybe one already labelled as such exists (for 59.94) and you ought to erase that one before creating your own real 59Hz mode.
Anyway if 58, 57, 56 etc don't work either, then something's in the way (just hope it's not the MegaView that would be awful)

Oh no the monitor is fine, it's synced to all kinds of things including PAL consoles. It's probably me doing something wrong or perhaps Windows, I don't know.

Frame delay is extra demanding ON FLAT PANELS. ^^

That I did not realise, okay then maybe a small PC is the best way to go, I could stuff it in behind my PS2 or something

[HDgaming42]

Right now, I'm just sitting down with this thing for the first time and trying to shovel all of the excess crap out of Windows 10. This system is not even going to be connected to the internet, so I'm really going scorched-earth on it.

You really owe it to yourself to check out the win10 decrapifier script if you haven't already. You run it during the initial setup phase of a fresh install and it's amazing. Cleanest (and still functional) Win 10 I've ever used:

https://community.spiceworks.com/script ... -18xx-19xx

It also results in new users having the same, clean desktop/start menu. No need to battle Candy Crush, etc each time you add a user.

Highly customizable.

[Xyga]

^ this is awesome.

[HDgaming42]

^ this is awesome.

the only trick is not to get too overzealous. There are apps that have deeper hooks into the OS than you'd first imagine. Here's my (to me) functional line 85:

$GoodApps = "alarms|store|calculator|sticky|windows.photos|soundrecorder|mspaint|screensketch|xbox|zunevideo"

[buttersoft]

In theory, if you can run two different drivers, there's no reason one of them couldn't be crt_emudriver. I'd grab a really, really cheap 5450, or something else low-end capable of EDID emulation, and give it a shot, personally. As long as you don't mind having to reinstall windows if something goes horribly wrong

[Xyga]

Decided to pick a bottom-priced Optiplex 7010 i5-3570 W7 from the bay, only 124€ shipping incl.
but the product page was so dodgy I'm not even sure what I have purchased.
There were several options with an i7-3770, but the STP wasn't much better yet the base TDP less interesting, for an increased cost it wasn't worth.
Will know when it gets there.

Also won an XFX R7 250 2GB for 45€ shipping incl.
Again no precise description and no picture of what I actually bought, so it'll be another surprise (there are several variants of this card, some real 128bit 1000Hz, some inferior, dunno for sure which one I get)
R7 240 or R5 230 are more common and would do for most people, some are even fan-less, even several older HD series are fine (5000 series and up) as long as you stick to CRT, but I want to test the limits of such a setup even on LCD, hence the 'real' R7 250 pick (the Dell OEM isn't one apparently, and more on the level of a 230 or 240) plus the 250 might not be compatible with ATOM-15 so that model might be a no-no for some despite being the most powerul.
There's always the J-PAC option but the price is still ridiculous.

That's an attempt at getting a quite potent machine at sub-200 zeni budget, here 169, leaving room for acquiring a pre-built VGA>SCART lead or UMSA whatever.
I don't need such cable myself since I already got one, but this is just to demonstrate.
arcade-express offer shipping incl. closes at 27€ for a simple one, 31€ with added audio out.
(I bid people who plan to mess with c-sync in vmmaker good luck, my philosophy is to keep it simple)

Total exactly 200€ (169 in my particular case)
Again; that's assuming the ebay risk-taking will be in my/your favor.
(since I didn't need the cable I should have spent a little more to buy from safer-looking sellers methinks, could have still maintained sub-200, welp, we'll see)

[SamIAm]

I finally got my Optiplex and Groovymame to the point where I can sit back and cruise with them. While I haven't done any stress-tests, I'm already very pleased - the games I want to play run without any hitches, the 15khz output on a CRT looks totally authentic, and even without any tweaking, the input lag feels very low. The system itself is so small (and quiet) that I barely notice it, too. For the money I spent, I'm very satisfied.

I had a bit of trouble setting up EDID emulation with my HD 5450, which I'm inclined to think is due to some incompatibility with the Japanese system and OS, but I've essentially gotten around it.

If I ever get an SDD and reinstall Windows, I'll be sure to do all that decrapifying jazz. For now, just targeting the most likely suspects - pre-installed programs, programs loaded on startup, and scheduled events - I've gotten the boot time down quite low. Thanks for the recommendation, though.

[BuckoA51]

Windows 10 seems to start pretty fast anyway, other than removing apps to save room is there really a lot to be gained?

[SamIAm]

It sure as heck is faster now than the first few times I booted it.

[BuckoA51]

To anyone considering this, you need to remember CRT Emudriver is kind of a hack, and needs you to put your PC in test signing mode and disable secure boot. Probably not the greatest idea if you plan to use your PC for day to day work and web access.

I'm now going to use a separate PC because of this.

[Dochartaigh]

To anyone considering this, you need to remember CRT Emudriver is kind of a hack, and needs you to put your PC in test signing mode and disable secure boot. Probably not the greatest idea if you plan to use your PC for day to day work and web access.

I'm now going to use a separate PC because of this.

I actually use mine like a regular PC (with the regular 4K video signal coming from the MB's HDMI port and integrated graphics chip) and it browses the web and runs Adobe design programs just fine.

[Xyga]

Yeah I do that too although it's not my 'main' computer and I definitely don't use it everyday.
EDIT: iirc Calamity has his own computer on Emudriver too.

I was planning to turn it into my main tho (no longer just an emu pc), which is why I though 'hell why not grab an Optiplex too'

And this is where the update comes...

...both the Optiplex and R7 purchases failed !

. the former was the wrong product (USFF version)
. the latter was DOA

Returned the Dell, kept the AMD, got full refunds ship.incl. for both.
For the card I guess it got mistreated by either carrier or customs Xray, dunno.

ANYWAY buying used computer parts on eBay is always risky, but what I've learned there in particular is that things like those Optiplexes are mainly found from trashy sellers who don't check their descriptions/pics/products, nor know what they are selling anyway.
You can find the one you want at very low price, but it'll be luck if it's the right one that's delivered or if it's not partly or totally broken.
I've contacted several sellers, and they were all clueless about their own Optiplex merchandise.

I still maintain that it's a good idea for a simple inexpensive relatively compact GroovyMAME setup, the problem is eBay is a real garbage dump these days.
Stores dedicated to refurbished PC parts are probably better places to look, but of course they're more expensive...

[BuckoA51]

I got a good deal on a new i7 Optiplex through the business, spent way more than I intended but it's a nice machine for sure. I still can't do frame delay to 9 in all games (I think system 24 games were struggling) but I'm very happy with it.

If the tax man reads this, yes, a Mame PC is essential for the running of videogameperfection.com