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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:35 pm 


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At this price I'd expect a polished product. Where I foresee a potential hangup is in the OSD presentation. Didn't professor abrasive say he's not really experienced at making GUI's? If it's a simple everdrive text implementation, it can't really compete with the more polished OSD of the MODE. I thought he said that it can be skinned, and he was hoping someone would step up to the challenge, but I'm not sure if that's the case yet. If not, you're not getting everything the MODE gives you plus the convenience of not having to open the console.

The Satiator costs $47 more than the MODE. The MODE's not plug & Play, requiring removal of the CD drive, which is a major downside for a lot of people. Plug the satiator into the VCD slot on the back and your good to go. Everything can remain stock. The CD drive will still work. That's attractive. I assume he's charging a small premium for the convenience.

Hell, people are paying $600+ for an UltraHDMI modded N64 on e-bay right now. There's noting wrong with charging the going rate for the service you provide, even if the profit margins are ludicrous. But if I pay the permium, I expect the same and more than the competition. So I don't want to sacrifice on GUI presentation. I do at least want to see it running before I pull the trigger.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Aug 17, 2020 11:44 pm 


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ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Anyone buying this is literally text book definition of sunken cost fallacy.

$15 off is a great complementary piece for patreon members.

Why? I plan on buying one and I haven't paid him a cent yet. Patreons may only get a $15 discount, but they get sales priority. The rest of us have to wait. If I was a patreon supporter, I would have only done so to support the effort, having never expected services in return for my "donation." This is a bonus he had no requirement to extend.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:09 am 


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I'm still interested, mostly because I'd like to keep the disc drive.

But at the moment, the MODE does have a few advantages for me. Firstly, being able to use an AR cart with the MODE is a pretty big deal to me. Can't quite do that with the Satiator. Secondly, the MODE is cheaper. The Satiator also has an issue with Japanese Saturns where you must open and close the lid for it to boot, depending on your BIOS, but supposedly this is being worked on. Minor setback, but not a dealbreaker.

I've not supported Prof. Abrasive on Patreon at any point, and yet it still has my attention. I don't think it's fair to count anyone out who wants it - it's their money anyway.

I think there's room for improvement with the Satiator, though. Apparently, he'll be providing a better deal for his Patreon supporters with an update in the next couple days, so that's at least a boon.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:26 am 


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RIP-Felix wrote:
If it's a simple everdrive text implementation, it can't really compete with the more polished OSD of the MODE


I don't get why people always dunk on Everdrive menus. They're great! Easy to understand, readable fonts & contrasting colors, fast to navigate, all screen-space dedicated to the list of games, no animations, no sound effects, no logos, zero BS. The last thing I want is some 'skinned' menu. Choosing a game in a flashcard isn't an 'experience', it's something you spend 5sec. on and then move on to your game. Spending tons of effort (that only makes things more cluttered...) on that makes about as much sense as producing an expensive, beautiful case for a device that is installed in my console and that I'll (if everything goes right) never have to look at again.

PixelPhoenix wrote:
Firstly, being able to use an AR cart with the MODE is a pretty big deal to me. Can't quite do that with the Satiator.


Haven't heard that one, why can't you use an AR + Satiator?


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:36 am 


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I'm someone who likes a good menu. In any case, the MODE is going through growing pains on the Saturn side, with many people having a variety of issues. Satiator, with no USB interface to load games, and reliant on SD cards, is gonna be even more expensive. Much rather have a HDD option these days to prevent fragmentation.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:51 am 


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ASDR wrote:
...I don't get why people always dunk on Everdrive menus. They're great! Easy to understand, readable fonts & contrasting colors, fast to navigate, all screen-space dedicated to the list of games, no animations, no sound effects, no logos, zero BS. The last thing I want is some 'skinned' menu. Choosing a game in a flashcard isn't an 'experience', it's something you spend 5sec. on and then move on to your game...

You cant underestimate the importance of every little thing the user has to interact with, especially the first things they see when starting a console. I prefer a minimalistic menu that is easy to read and use, but I want more than white text on a black background. Think SD2SNES vs Mega Everdrive. That 5 seconds before you start a game is part of the experience. It's the reason I choose not to fast boot PS1 when emulating - I want to see the iconic BIOS animation. Everytime I see it I'm like, "Ah yeah, bring the booyah."


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:02 am 



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Although I don't mind white text on a black background at all (RMENU v0.2 for the Rhea/Phoebe looks just fine to me) , if there is a more involved menu I prefer it to look clean and feel like something that would've appeared on the original console.

The MODE menu for example looks very "inauthentic" and uses a terrible font that's difficult to read. On the other hand, I think PSIO looks great here:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:09 am 


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RIP-Felix wrote:
You cant underestimate the importance of every little thing the user has to interact with, especially the first things they see when starting a console. I prefer a minimalistic menu that is easy to read and use, but I want more than white text on a black background. Think SD2SNES vs Mega Everdrive. That 5 seconds before you start a game is part of the experience. It's the reason I choose not to fast boot PS1 when emulating - I want to see the iconic BIOS animation. Everytime I see it I'm like, "Ah yeah, bring the booyah."


Every time I boot my Saturn I think 'that Japanese logo looks soooo much cooler than the western one', so I get it :-) But regarding the SD2SNES, that just makes me go 'why is 25% of the screen space wasted on a logo?'. I truly think the Everdrive menus are great! I dislike those super playful / fancy menus I've seen on TO and Darksoft products.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:30 am 



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bahamutfan64 wrote:
Although I don't mind white text on a black background at all (RMENU v0.2 for the Rhea/Phoebe looks just fine to me) , if there is a more involved menu I prefer it to look clean and feel like something that would've appeared on the original console.

The MODE menu for example looks very "inauthentic" and uses a terrible font that's difficult to read. On the other hand, I think PSIO looks great here:

Image


Those background images were community member contributions, however credit does go to the PSIO team for enabling the user to create and set backgrounds, and those in particular look great since they nicely replicate the original user interface of the PSOne/PS.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 6:34 am 



Joined: 17 Sep 2012
Posts: 401
Greg2600 wrote:
As I complained on another forum, he JUST said he was posting to the public from now on, and puts this behind the paywall.

Anybody know how many are in his queue?


I saw a couple people say they were in the 700's. So they won't be getting theirs until the get the 1k resupply after the 100 initial run.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:05 am 


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According to the comments, some people are at place ~1400 in the queue. I'm on place 128. I've donated 2$ each month since Aug 2017.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 12:42 pm 


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I'm in the first batch so I'll definitely be jumping on it, but I'm certainly not happy about the price. Given the amount of money pulled in via Patreon over the last several years, I had made the assumption that would have offset the price quite a bit. Shame that isn't the case.

The price doesn't seem *too* unreasonable given everything you get (a quality shell and box). Those obviously cost money to manufacture. The earlier comparison to the MODE's price is appropriate as well given the convenience factor of not having to mod the console in any way. There are other convenience factors too, like the easy way of sharing the cart with someone else. I have a brother with a Saturn. We both go through phases with the platform. At one moment I'll binge out on it, then I'll get my fill and play a bunch of other systems for a while. In those moments I can then take the cart out, loan it to my brother for a bit, then simply get it back later when I want to binge out again. Not having to mod the console means I can still use the disc drive in those moments where I don't have the cart in my possession.

I thought the Action Replay was supposed to still work in conjunction with it?
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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 7:15 pm 


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Last I heard AR should work, just not aware if any beta testers have tried it.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:42 pm 



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Professor Abrasive's patreon mentioned that Pseudo Saturn Kai support would be suspended. Might have stemmed from that since it was planned as an alternative menu for the Satiator.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 8:57 pm 



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I'm 1433.

I'm not too bothered as I'll have the benefit of the first 1000 people putting it through its paces so I'll know by the time a resupply comes around whether it is worth my money.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 9:55 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
Every time I boot my Saturn I think 'that Japanese logo looks soooo much cooler than the western one', so I get it :-) But regarding the SD2SNES, that just makes me go 'why is 25% of the screen space wasted on a logo?'. I truly think the Everdrive menus are great! I dislike those super playful / fancy menus I've seen on TO and Darksoft products.

That's fair. To each their own. I hope there's an option to set a custom backround like the Everdrive64, or something similar. This way I can have my nice clutterd GUI and you can have your clean and simple one.

Austin wrote:
...There are other convenience factors too, like the easy way of sharing the cart with someone else. I have a brother with a Saturn...Not having to mod the console means I can still use the disc drive in those moments where I don't have the cart in my possession.
That's a good point...

Me: "Hey man, I brought my MODE! Hold on while I install it...[performs surgery]...unscrew that, pop this open, don't need that, this goes there...and voila! Okay we're ready to play!"

Friend: "What did you do to my Saturn, He said with a abhorrent look on his face!?"


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:19 pm 


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eightbitminiboss wrote:
Professor Abrasive's patreon mentioned that Pseudo Saturn Kai support would be suspended. Might have stemmed from that since it was planned as an alternative menu for the Satiator.


The Kai guy is busy still on Fenrir implementation, that's part of the reason. Prof did offer him a dev board whenever he was ready.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:21 pm 


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RIP-Felix wrote:
Austin wrote:
...There are other convenience factors too, like the easy way of sharing the cart with someone else. I have a brother with a Saturn...Not having to mod the console means I can still use the disc drive in those moments where I don't have the cart in my possession.
That's a good point...

Me: "Hey man, I brought my MODE! Hold on while I install it...[performs surgery]...unscrew that, pop this open, don't need that, this goes there...and voila! Okay we're ready to play!"

Friend: "What did you do to my Saturn, He said with a abhorrent look on his face!?"


One of the things I really find off putting about Fenrir & Rhea/Phoebe is that they are specific to the 20 vs 21 pin Saturn. I think for the latter you even have to change some solder jumpers for the specific drive type. This means when my Saturn dies I not only have the difficulty of sourcing an imported NTSC one, I now also have to get a specific model that matches my ODE. Everybody that has messaged eBay sellers before knows how low the response rate is. Nobody wants to pop the case open and tell you the board revision. But that stuff can be really crucial as certain ODEs, RGB/HDMI mods only work on certain board revisions. So I'm always very happy when devices like the Phantom modchips are designed in a way that they work on all models.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Thu Aug 20, 2020 1:10 am 


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Here's an answer Prof. A. gave on Patreon to the whole cost thing...

Quote:
I'll do a bit of a FAQ on this announcement in the coming days, but in the mean time, some exposition. Exact costs aside, the markup is needed in part to cover the production ramp. I've diligently saved every dollar from Patreon - separate bank accounts and everything - and it's not nearly enough to make a big batch. Right now I'm putting in orders for the longer lead time items, and then I need sales to buy parts, sort out manufacture, pay the logistics people... If the Satiators were priced at cost, I'd be stuck doing them in series, and it'd take 6 months to a year to cover the Patreon orders. As it is I am looking at dipping into my personal savings to complete the next batch promptly.


In terms of the discount, he did $15 as an average because his web store wouldn't allow multiple values. Apparently he spent a day coming up with a personalized value instead dependent on length of support. Look folks the price is what it is. He gave up the idea of assembling these himself a long time ago. COVID has thrown a wrench in his plans, making it likely that he has to put a lot of money up front now. Patreon is a tip platform, it is not kickstarter, which is why I did not participate. Had he put up product rewards up front, I would have.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 8:58 pm 


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Greg2600 wrote:
Here's an answer Prof. A. gave on Patreon to the whole cost thing...

Quote:
I'll do a bit of a FAQ on this announcement in the coming days, but in the mean time, some exposition. Exact costs aside, the markup is needed in part to cover the production ramp. I've diligently saved every dollar from Patreon - separate bank accounts and everything - and it's not nearly enough to make a big batch. Right now I'm putting in orders for the longer lead time items, and then I need sales to buy parts, sort out manufacture, pay the logistics people... If the Satiators were priced at cost, I'd be stuck doing them in series, and it'd take 6 months to a year to cover the Patreon orders. As it is I am looking at dipping into my personal savings to complete the next batch promptly.


In terms of the discount, he did $15 as an average because his web store wouldn't allow multiple values. Apparently he spent a day coming up with a personalized value instead dependent on length of support. Look folks the price is what it is. He gave up the idea of assembling these himself a long time ago. COVID has thrown a wrench in his plans, making it likely that he has to put a lot of money up front now. Patreon is a tip platform, it is not kickstarter, which is why I did not participate. Had he put up product rewards up front, I would have.

Soooo...Patreon supporters foot the bill for future production? Patreons "donate" to helped get it started, in return for whatever the creator decides to trickle down. In this case, they pay to read a BLOG, overpay for the prestige to buy it first and subsidize a lower price for everyone else later (assuming He ever does lower the price)?

If so, I can see why creators love Patreon. A side project that would never get made otherwise can receive funding by crowdsourcing many everyday people willing to make a small donation to in order to fund a niche maker. The creator can retain 100% equity! Democratize the investment process through crowdsourced donations, instead of forfeiting equity to venture capitalists.

I don't mean to paint a negative picture here. If you like a creator and want to help them retain complete freedom and control of their product, without having any strings attached to your (non-caritable) donation, them by all means "support" them on patreon. This must be why Patreon is so popular, it's the option with the fewest strings attached, and many creators are able to keep creating because of it. Basically, Patreon is the online equivalent of a cardboard sign. At least that's what it feels like every time someone on youtube says, "If you like my videos, please like, comment, subscribe...and consider supporting me on Patreon, which really helps me out."


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:08 pm 


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The patreon model works well for people producing a constant stream of regular content (where the content is the product), and is fair. It doesn't work so well for someone who is just working on a product, that's what kickstarter et al are for. The problem with Prof Abrasive's model (although he may not have ever intended or even seen it this way at all) is that the money stops when the product is released.. There is financial incentive to not finish it.

I feel like the $15 discount must be a bit of a slap in the face.. As many could have put significantly more than that into the project already.


Last edited by Kez on Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Fri Aug 21, 2020 9:12 pm 


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Did he not pause Patreon contributions at some point a year ago or something, when he admitted he would not be able to work on it for months?


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Sat Aug 22, 2020 11:27 pm 


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He modified the $15 discount. Every patron gets that at a minimum, but you get more depending on how long/how much you supported over the years. It looks like I'm getting $27 off as opposed to just $15.

Regarding the Patreon talk (not related to the Satiator), I support creators whom's content I enjoy. I treat it as, "I like what you do and I do not want you to stop. So here's a monthly donation to keep the content coming."

Patreon wouldn't be necessary if ad revenue paid the bills, but for many creators it does not, hence crowdfunding. Creators that are serious about what they do and provide constant content always have a lot on their plate. Constantly making content is a lot of work. Patreon is a reasonable trade off. It is what it is.
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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 3:23 pm 


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https://www.patreon.com/posts/faq-40787196

Long form FAQ posted yesterday.

  • supports images in BIN/CUE format (single- and multi-BIN), and ISO files. It supports on-the-fly region patching of games, so you don't need to modify your games to play them out of region.
  • acts as a "system disc", allowing you to boot CD-Rs, if for some reason you really want to do that.
  • compatible with both RAM carts and the backup save cartridge.
  • unaffected by 50/60 Hz switches, and by modchips.

Coming features.

  • Saturns with BIOS 1.00, booting into the Satiator menu requires opening and closing the CD drive lid. I already have a fix for this and it just needs a little bit of integration work.
  • will be a save manager integrated to the menu, so that you can transfer game saves from the Saturn's memory to the SD card and vice versa. This will also work for the backup cartridge, if you have one.
  • Multi-disc games will be supported. Opening and closing the Saturn's real drive lid will be used to indicate to the Satiator that you want to switch discs.
  • AR not supported AS IS, but AR also stores its firmware on Flash chips - it can be reprogrammed at will. So my plan here is to develop an alternative firmware for the AR to embrace the Satiator. This is actually an opportunity disguised as a problem: there are a number of cool features which can be implemented once you have a little bit of storage in the cart slot. This will be open source, however it eventuates. In the mean time, it's possible to use an AR as a RAM cartridge by flashing it with an empty firmware - which is what I run on my development system.

Compatibility spreadsheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NsgnKeMwA-ATlyKZfL3R44d8E_O9sFlWdXSnltFkE_A/edit?usp=sharing


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:49 pm 



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Greg2600 wrote:


That's more issues than I had expected, and this is only testing through the small USA library. There's still a lot more to test in the rather huge Japan library (and really the main reason to invest this much time and resource on a Saturn). Seems like we should expect that some time will be needed for compatibility to mature.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 4:53 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
That's more issues than I had expected, and this is only testing through the small USA library.


There are tabs for other regions as well, lots of Japanese games have been tested. Still, looks like the testing has been cursory.. bound to be more issues presenting themselves as people delve deeper into the games. Some pretty important games with issues, too.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Mon Aug 24, 2020 6:09 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Greg2600 wrote:


That's more issues than I had expected, and this is only testing through the small USA library. There's still a lot more to test in the rather huge Japan library (and really the main reason to invest this much time and resource on a Saturn). Seems like we should expect that some time will be needed for compatibility to mature.


Actually most of those were corrected by a newer firmware. The games have a second line which shows they work. Seems to me like a substantial # of actual games in both NTSC libraries were tested without flaws.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 5:21 am 


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 11:23 am 


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Order emails went out this morning to the first 100.
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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution
PostPosted: Tue Aug 25, 2020 12:35 pm 


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Ordered mine today, shipping was extra and there's taxes on top, so definitely not good value, but whatever.
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