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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 28, 2020 11:39 pm 


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Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 69
Location: New Jersey
XtraSmiley wrote:
Bob may not be a Patreon donator so he might not know what is going on, or he may know, but since only paying Patreon's are now getting updates, maybe he felt he shouldn't share the info.

Or maybe, despite this big update, no real info is forthcoming, so why stir the pot now...


I've read many comments on various forums of people who were on Patreon but gave up awhile ago, which is understandable.

RIP-Felix wrote:
The best strategy if you want the least headache, in terms of continuing support, is to release the Satiator in a finalized state. Prof. Abrasive won't have to make board revisions, issue recalls, accept as many returns, or re-tool the assembly line. This is good for customers too, because it means he can focus more attention on software/firmware support, but more importantly ramping up production without a hitch. This is the worst strategy if you're trying to beat competitors to market, because it takes longer.

Now, if the manufacturing and distribution is ready to go and the software is good enough, then it should be ready for release. With continuing software/firmware support the compatibility could be dialed in afterwards. If He wants the software/firmware at 100% before release, that might be a bit unreasonable and signal he wants to be done with the project and move on with his life. I'm not sure that isn't the case.


I'm pretty sure he finalized the hardware last year if not earlier. When he would take quite prolonged breaks due to real life matters, I figured okay, but this has been in beta for quite some time. Meanwhile you had Fenrir come from nowhere and runs. Hell, Krikzz designed and launched the Mega Everdrive Pro with CD support in less than 8 months. This took almost 18 months just to finally get it to beta, which was over 6 months ago.

Elrinth wrote:
hopefully this will get sold to others than patreons at some point.


Well he is supposedly setup for a full scale manufacture/distribution, so I don't see why he won't be able to produce large quantities.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 4:03 am 


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Greg2600 wrote:
I'm pretty sure he finalized the hardware last year if not earlier. When he would take quite prolonged breaks due to real life matters, I figured okay, but this has been in beta for quite some time. Meanwhile you had Fenrir come from nowhere and runs. Hell, Krikzz designed and launched the Mega Everdrive Pro with CD support in less than 8 months. This took almost 18 months just to finally get it to beta, which was over 6 months ago.
As the beta continues to run down the compatibility list, is it not possible that bugs requiring a hardware revision could pop up? I don't know, but if you're being extra careful, it'd be nice to be sure first. Especially, if your goal is to release it in a final state with near 100% compatibility.

As for the Mega Everdrive's timetable or any other device and maker, it's not fair to make comparisons. I got A's in statistics without trying, but Integral Calculus ate me alive! Math is math, right? HELL NO! Apples to oranges. Everyone is different, some things come easy and go fast, others beat the life out of you. That's the way it goes.

Honestly, the other ODE's don't appeal to me. I don't want to remove my CD drive or even have to open the console, if I don't have to (I mod/restore my consoles all the time, ability's not the point). I have plenty of other projects occupying my time, so this will be nice to add to the list when it finally does come out. So I'm fine with the wait. BTW, I've been waiting longer than 18 months that's for sure. It's been years since I first heard about this project...actually let me check...yeah it was in 2016 I first saw this video. So it's been 4 years. But he started tinkering with the saturn back in 2012, which eventually led to this project organically. He never really set out with that intention, like other makers did. His approach is unique and technically impressive. Moreover, his work reverse engineering the CD subsystem has given the emulation community more insight into how the Saturn works, something that CPU decapping efforts failed to do (because of the architecture). This has advantaged Saturn emulation in recent years, which has made huge strides in terms of accyracy. If this is the only contribution he makes to the retro gaming community, it's plenty.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 12:16 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 494
XtraSmiley wrote:
Listai wrote:
Greg2600 wrote:
Appreciate the updates folks on this! Especially the copy/paste from April which was really a thorough update from the Prof but for whatever the reason Retro RGB Bob made it sound kind of moot.


Yeah - I thought Bob's most recent coverage in the weekly roundup was also sub par. Despite Prof's two most recent updates being incredibly detailed and outlining exactly where the Satiator is the production process Bob's response was basically "I thought these were done already?"


Bob may not be a Patreon donator so he might not know what is going on, or he may know, but since only paying Patreon's are now getting updates, maybe he felt he shouldn't share the info.

Or maybe, despite this big update, no real info is forthcoming, so why stir the pot now...



I'm still a Patreon donor, but you're correct, I just didn't feel the need to stir the pot again. My perspective on this might be wrong, but I'm tired of giving detailed, hope-filled updates, just to have more months of silence. I've been super sympathetic because I know how hard it is to get a product into production (especially when you're trying to do it right with test equipment, erc), but I think we're past the point of "it's still coming, just wait!".

I mean no disrespect to Professor Abrasive or the Satiator project when I say that, I'm just being honest: It should have been done a long time ago and I don't want to continually make excuses for it. I don't have time to check these forums often, but if anyone thinks I'm wrong about this, feel free to let me know. I might not change my mind, but respectfully-worded opinions are ALWAYS apprecaited.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 3:20 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 242
Location: The Netherlands
With this patreon stuff he's basically got himself an employer, so it doesn't really sound benificial at all to end a steady incomestream soon.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 6:16 pm 


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Posts: 78
spmbx wrote:
With this patreon stuff he's basically got himself an employer, so it doesn't really sound benificial at all to end a steady incomestream soon.

He has a better job with a more stable paycheck. It's hard to convince anyone to spend tens of thousands of dollars to bring a product to market, out of pocket. That's where fund raising efforts come in.

retrorgb wrote:
...I've been super sympathetic because I know how hard it is to get a product into production (especially when you're trying to do it right with test equipment, erc), but I think we're past the point of "it's still coming, just wait!".

In your 2017 interview with him, Professor Abrasive said He didn't want to go the Kickstarter or Indiegogo route because it would force expectations, schedules, and stress that "doesn't suit the way he develops his personal projects." It's not like he's bait and switching us, he never made any scheduling promise. You did ask, but it was among a few other questions. This allows interviewees to easily evade the question, by answering them instead. Regardless, I got the message perfectly clear. This is his baby and no one will tell him when it's ready to be born. He has provided updates of progress the entire way, it's just that people get too excited when they see a working prototype, a plastic case, a beta test, etc. Understandably so, but that doesn't mean he's anywhere near ready to release.

I'm speaking generally now. While it's nice that makers & content/creators can have a group of dedicated fans showing their support in a manner that more directly incentivizes them, without Youtube playing games with the algorithm or demonetizing videos, it also places pressure on them to perform. People pledge money as if they're expecting something in return. If that's the reason your thinking of donating, then don't. Just buy the product when it sells. Then there's a clear contract for exchange and you won't feel cheated. To be fair, Patreon does offer tiers and often there are perks, but it's still a donation. You're free to stop at any time for any reason, just as the creator is not required to offer you anything in return. That's not even the case here, Professor Abrasive gives us valuable insight into the process of developing a product that is often conducted behind closed doors. There may be $5 worth of parts, but it takes years to engineer, expensive manufacturing/tooling, a headache setting up distribution, years of continuing support, a system in place to handle returns, etc. All of which you have to factor into price. It's a no win scenario. People just see a 1000% markup on a product years overdue. I mean, what did you expect? That's what this project is, a modding journal that ends in a niche product relatively few people will buy. Even with Patreon, there's no real incentive to rush to market. And the other ODE's are completely different. So they're not even competition.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:31 pm 



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
Posts: 242
Location: The Netherlands
I can't see the benjamins but seeing as he currently has 1255 patrons he's pulling in at least 1255usd (pre-tax) in each month (but in reality it's a lot more). His first post was over 40 months ago. He didnt have quite as many patrons on the beginning, but i would guess he's made at least 30k to 40k total on this project from patreon alone without even selling a single satiator. I just see 0 incentive to actually release any product this way, if anything it'll just destroy a comfortable cashflow coming in.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:39 pm 



Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Posts: 178
Location: St Louis, IL, USA
retrorgb wrote:

I'm still a Patreon donor, but you're correct, I just didn't feel the need to stir the pot again. My perspective on this might be wrong, but I'm tired of giving detailed, hope-filled updates, just to have more months of silence. I've been super sympathetic because I know how hard it is to get a product into production (especially when you're trying to do it right with test equipment, erc), but I think we're past the point of "it's still coming, just wait!".

I mean no disrespect to Professor Abrasive or the Satiator project when I say that, I'm just being honest: It should have been done a long time ago and I don't want to continually make excuses for it. I don't have time to check these forums often, but if anyone thinks I'm wrong about this, feel free to let me know. I might not change my mind, but respectfully-worded opinions are ALWAYS apprecaited.


Thanks for the update Bob.

We're all big boys and girls. We understand Patreon is giving our money to someone as support, nothing more. Promises are not being made and whatever item the person is working on may never see the light of day. It's our choice to support.

That being said, if I were a Patreon support of this project (I am not), I would have pulled the plug a long time ago.

I support creators by buying their products. I'm not rich enough to support their life while they develop said product. That's built into the cost of the final product. That's why items don't cost what their BOG are, they are BOG plus development.

I'm still hopeful this comes out and is awesome. More choice is always better for our hobby.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:54 am 


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Joined: 22 Feb 2013
Posts: 69
Location: New Jersey
spmbx wrote:
I can't see the benjamins but seeing as he currently has 1255 patrons he's pulling in at least 1255usd (pre-tax) in each month (but in reality it's a lot more). His first post was over 40 months ago. He didnt have quite as many patrons on the beginning, but i would guess he's made at least 30k to 40k total on this project from patreon alone without even selling a single satiator. I just see 0 incentive to actually release any product this way, if anything it'll just destroy a comfortable cashflow coming in.


I know little about Patreon (probably will never fund anyone on there), but is it possible that there's 1200+ members yet maybe 300 are still actively "paying" him? I'm not sure if you get booted from the supporters list.

RIP-Felix wrote:
Honestly, the other ODE's don't appeal to me. I don't want to remove my CD drive or even have to open the console, if I don't have to (I mod/restore my consoles all the time, ability's not the point). I have plenty of other projects occupying my time, so this will be nice to add to the list when it finally does come out. So I'm fine with the wait. BTW, I've been waiting longer than 18 months that's for sure. It's been years since I first heard about this project...actually let me check...yeah it was in 2016 I first saw this video. So it's been 4 years. But he started tinkering with the saturn back in 2012, which eventually led to this project organically. He never really set out with that intention, like other makers did. His approach is unique and technically impressive. Moreover, his work reverse engineering the CD subsystem has given the emulation community more insight into how the Saturn works, something that CPU decapping efforts failed to do (because of the architecture). This has advantaged Saturn emulation in recent years, which has made huge strides in terms of accuracy. If this is the only contribution he makes to the retro gaming community, it's plenty.


I've been waiting since he first appeared on the scene on Assemblergames.com. I too would rather not remove the drive on my Saturn, but the MODE has a great menu, is on the market now, and has better storage capabilities. I can't even conceive what the size of the full Saturn library is, but there's no SD Card available now that would likely fit it. He indicated quite some time ago that the Satiator hardware was DONE DONE DONE. He had some issues with getting the Beta PCB's done, which took seemingly forever to straighten out.

retrorgb wrote:
I mean no disrespect to Professor Abrasive or the Satiator project when I say that, I'm just being honest: It should have been done a long time ago and I don't want to continually make excuses for it. I don't have time to check these forums often, but if anyone thinks I'm wrong about this, feel free to let me know. I might not change my mind, but respectfully-worded opinions are ALWAYS appreciated.


For someone in your position (as a press/media source) that makes sense. I on the other hand, am free to openly complain! A few years ago when Prof. was mired in new work projects, a move, and an infant that had arrived, I had no issue with the delay. However, the last 2 years have been very disappointing, and I feel like what has held him back is his perfectionism. He's often alluded that this is something he himself tussles with over and over again. But you look at the Mike Chi's of the world, or as I said Krikzz, they take this stuff from design to production in like no time flat. They've got lives too, but they understand these are all homebrew projects, and you get it running what you feel are the key stuff, then you put it out there. If there are bugs or features missing, you work on those once people have it in their hands.

I don't feel the Prof. delays are to milk Patreon supporters, it's his stubbornness. He also stopped giving regular updates to the public. I really hope he gets it out there and I can actually buy one, but my gosh this has been a masterclass in how NOT to develop homebrew hardware. The Fenrir came out of nowhere, and has gone through at least 2 production/sales runs. The MODE is here now as well. What has been the Satiator's response to being third fiddle? Silence. Maybe he's telling Patreon people that it's gonna be here in August or September or whatever, but nobody there has said anything. Oh well, he's lost a ton of potential sales with this delay. If it had come out last year, he'd have sold thousands of them by now.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:23 pm 


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Professor Abrasive made a post showing off the box for the Satiator. He also stated he will be making all of his posts public from here on out: https://www.patreon.com/posts/pandemic-38781159

Greg2600 wrote:
I know little about Patreon (probably will never fund anyone on there), but is it possible that there's 1200+ members yet maybe 300 are still actively "paying" him? I'm not sure if you get booted from the supporters list.


The list of patrons you see on his profile are the active/paying ones. When a patron leaves or their credit card is declined, they are removed from that number until they pay again.
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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:57 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 614
Greg2600 wrote:
I've been waiting since he first appeared on the scene on Assemblergames.com. I too would rather not remove the drive on my Saturn, but the MODE has a great menu, is on the market now, and has better storage capabilities. I can't even conceive what the size of the full Saturn library is, but there's no SD Card available now that would likely fit it. He indicated quite some time ago that the Satiator hardware was DONE DONE DONE. He had some issues with getting the Beta PCB's done, which took seemingly forever to straighten out.


You can get Micro SD cards at 512 GB or even 1 TB if you're willing to put out the cash for it. Considering each game would fit on a standard CD at no more than 700 MB per game, that's surely enough to fit at least 99% of what people would actually want to play? I have no stake in this, I'm just saying. Though I have been following the progress of the Satiator for some time, I can already play burned discs, so the main interest for me is preserving the drive rather than the discs.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:14 pm 


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The box design is cute as fuck, I like it so much!

Image

^ Kinda reminds me of the amazing box for this old YPbPr switch, lol
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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:26 pm 


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Image

Did he read this thread?

https://www.patreon.com/posts/pandemic-38781159


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:18 pm 


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kitty666cats wrote:
The box design is cute as fuck, I like it so much!


Yeah it's awesome, I dig the Japanese kitsch vibes
Image
'NO disc' lol


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:57 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 985
Gunstar wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
The box design is cute as fuck, I like it so much!


Yeah it's awesome, I dig the Japanese kitsch vibes
Image
'NO disc' lol


This owns.


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:26 pm 


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:lol:

Omg, this is so awesome. Image Image


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:23 pm 


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10/10 box art


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 Post subject: Re: Satiator - Saturn ODE solution (in Beta)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:42 pm 


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Appeal to the largest market, huh? Kawaii AF!


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