shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sun Oct 20, 2019 9:23 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 385
Location: UK
Decided to try out a few light gun games at home, since I've got the means to and I never really had the chance to experience the whole thing back in the day.
I got a Logic 3 Predator light gun for Saturn and PS1 as it seemed like a good one to start with. On the Saturn it works great and Virtua Cop is pretty fun.
Found out the hard way that it doesn't work very well on a PS2 ( running PS1 games of course ). It won't register at all in Time Crisis, in Elemental Gearbolt it won't register the bullets firing and in Project Horned Owl it kinda works but i'm sure that you're not supposed to hold the trigger for few seconds and then release to fire? Is there a gun out there that works okay for PS1 games on the PS2? And more importantly one that is compatible with the different types of light gun games? I don't mind if its 3rd party as long as the quality and feel is nice. Basically I don't want to have to get an original Guncon 1 then also another one for the Konami games etc... I've already gotten used to the fact that PS1 and PS2 will require separate guns and that's that. Are the Guncons usually compatible with the other type of non Guncon games on their respective consoles? (PS1/PS2)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2019 5:43 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
There are plenty of 3rd party guns with a guncon / guncon 2 / normal switch which are made to work with all light gun games for the PS1 and PS2. I have 19 of them and they all suck. If there are any accurate 3rd party guns that registers shots reliably, I have not found it yet. I can't recommend any of them. I have tried them will old and new monitors, curved and flat, big and small and they are just bad.

The official Namco Guncon 1 and Guncon 2 guns are the best home light guns I have ever used. You should use them instead of 3rd party guns, even if it means buying 3 instead of 1. Assuming you have a suitably bright monitor, they register shots reliably all the way to the screen edges and they are accurate. The crosshairs stay where you aim on the calibration screen and are rock solid (no shaking or teleporting).

The guncon 1 will work with some PS2 gc2 games like Vampire Night and TC2 but not all of them. It might be the one to start with. I can't speak on the official Konami guns yet but I am waiting for one to be delivered this week. I am hoping it will work better than my current 3rd party guns...

If you really want to take it up a notch, I recommend looking up Syntax's one light gun to rule them all thread.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 8:16 am 


User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 385
Location: UK
Fair enough! Guess I'll just pick up a G-Con 1 and 2 for now. The Konami guns are kinda rare in the UK so will see if one appears on eBay in the future.
Thanks for your help!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2019 4:49 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
werk91 wrote:
Fair enough! Guess I'll just pick up a G-Con 1 and 2 for now. The Konami guns are kinda rare in the UK so will see if one appears on eBay in the future.
Thanks for your help!


I'm sure one will turn up on ebay eventually. I had to look for a while before I found a Konami gun at a decent price. They usually ask for way too much.

I'd recommend waiting a few days until I can confirm if they are worth the effort. Light gun games are just not worth playing if the gun isn't accurate or doesn't register shots reliably. Plus, a lot of the older Konami light gun games are playable in mame so it might still be the way to go.

I also want to see if it's possible to wire the Konami gun pcb to my arcade recoil guns. I'm not sure I could live with using those bright green hyperblasters. But I kinda want to try the Japanese version of police 911 with the motion tracking thing.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:00 am 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Manchester, UK
If you are playing PAL versions of the games, the PS1 Guncon works with all the Namco PS2 games.
I know TC3 and Crisis Zone NTSC versions don't work with it for some reason.
And the Konami Justifier is called the Hyper Blaster over here, it's not so great either! I patched Die Hard Trilogy to use the Guncon and that worked a lot better.
_________________
The Unknown? I'm the one who knows!
My shmup achievements | and my Superplays!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 10:08 am 


User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Posts: 385
Location: UK
I stay away from PAL games generally, especially if they don't offer 60hz support. My NTSC PS2 has a modchip so it can play them but we all know why NTSC-U/J is much better. If there's patched ISOs that force the Konami games to work with Guncons then there's not much point to get a Hyper Blaster/ Justifier I guess. I don't mind owning few guns, but I don't want a collection of every single one out there :mrgreen:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 6:04 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
Smraedis wrote:
If you are playing PAL versions of the games, the PS1 Guncon works with all the Namco PS2 games.
I know TC3 and Crisis Zone NTSC versions don't work with it for some reason.
And the Konami Justifier is called the Hyper Blaster over here, it's not so great either! I patched Die Hard Trilogy to use the Guncon and that worked a lot better.



Please can you provide more info on how you patched Die Hard to work with the GC2? And, can it be done on other games?

On Die Hard, does the GC2 function as well as it does on Namco games or is it limited by the game software?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 7:59 pm 



Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 238
Location: North West - UK
You guys might be interested in the Sinden Lightgun for use on modern lcd displays with games running from an emulation source.
http://www.sindenlightgun.com/

There is also a side project to use the light gun on PS1 and PS2 hardware.
http://www.sindenlightgun.com/blog/playstation-1-and-2-original-console-sinden-lightgun-support/


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2019 9:47 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
pcb_revival wrote:
You guys might be interested in the Sinden Lightgun for use on modern lcd displays with games running from an emulation source.
http://www.sindenlightgun.com/

There is also a side project to use the light gun on PS1 and PS2 hardware.
http://www.sindenlightgun.com/blog/playstation-1-and-2-original-console-sinden-lightgun-support/


I've been following the Sinden development since it was a Kickstarter. It's one of three new "light guns" for 2019. It's exciting to see new products in this space. It's a shame they're all 3rd party though. We could do with Sony and Microsoft to get behind one to see a proper revival of the genre.

I don't know anyone who has taken delivery of a Sinden gun yet so I'll keep watching for now. Obviously the guy making them says they are as accurate as real light guns etc but they all say that. I like to hear real user reviews.

The tech seems to add a white border around the screen to find it's position instead of IR sensors. In theory, they should be capable of accuracy that is comparable to arcade IR guns that use 10-12*sensors positioned all around the bezel. It should offer better flexibility in where you stand than current home IR guns too.

Still, any new tech would have to seriously kick ass for me to replace my real light guns on a CRT. I'm curious to see how it will perform on consoles with no decent light gun options like the Dreamcast and for Virtua Cop 3 on a modded Xbox.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 4:57 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2018
Posts: 69
USA guncon2s will work on JPN games right?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 11:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Manchester, UK
werk91 wrote:
I stay away from PAL games generally, especially if they don't offer 60hz support. My NTSC PS2 has a modchip so it can play them but we all know why NTSC-U/J is much better. If there's patched ISOs that force the Konami games to work with Guncons then there's not much point to get a Hyper Blaster/ Justifier I guess. I don't mind owning few guns, but I don't want a collection of every single one out there :mrgreen:

Yeah the NTSC versions are always better!
The patches are here: https://github.com/mirror/nuvee/tree/master/ps1%20-%20guncon%20conversions
Classicgamer wrote:
Please can you provide more info on how you patched Die Hard to work with the GC2? And, can it be done on other games?

On Die Hard, does the GC2 function as well as it does on Namco games or is it limited by the game software?

Link is above, it only works with the Guncon1.
It is somewhat limited by the game, because the screen doesn't flash on every shot. Also there is no calibration screen, so I had to just adapt to the aiming difference.
Video playing the patched NTSC version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40RMztgXK0s
Compared to my old video playing unpatched PAL version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT6Ef2S ... A6E774F131

Cannonballs wrote:
USA guncon2s will work on JPN games right?

Yeah, they are not region locked like the DC guns seem to be.
_________________
The Unknown? I'm the one who knows!
My shmup achievements | and my Superplays!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:05 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1497
Smraedis wrote:
Cannonballs wrote:
USA guncon2s will work on JPN games right?

Yeah, they are not region locked like the DC guns seem to be.

The Dreamcast guns aren't region-locked in the traditional sense; it's a limited-scope software lockout. Almost all of the US light gun games on the Dreamcast were programmed to recognize the official light gun and then not allow its use.

I read somewhere that it will work if you boot the game with the gun disconnected, then connect it once you're at the main menu, it will work, but I don't have one of those light guns, so I can't test the lockout behavior or verify the workaround myself.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:02 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
Smraedis wrote:
werk91 wrote:
I stay away from PAL games generally, especially if they don't offer 60hz support. My NTSC PS2 has a modchip so it can play them but we all know why NTSC-U/J is much better. If there's patched ISOs that force the Konami games to work with Guncons then there's not much point to get a Hyper Blaster/ Justifier I guess. I don't mind owning few guns, but I don't want a collection of every single one out there :mrgreen:

Yeah the NTSC versions are always better!
The patches are here: https://github.com/mirror/nuvee/tree/master/ps1%20-%20guncon%20conversions
Classicgamer wrote:
Please can you provide more info on how you patched Die Hard to work with the GC2? And, can it be done on other games?

On Die Hard, does the GC2 function as well as it does on Namco games or is it limited by the game software?

Link is above, it only works with the Guncon1.
It is somewhat limited by the game, because the screen doesn't flash on every shot. Also there is no calibration screen, so I had to just adapt to the aiming difference.
Video playing the patched NTSC version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40RMztgXK0s
Compared to my old video playing unpatched PAL version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT6Ef2S ... A6E774F131

Cannonballs wrote:
USA guncon2s will work on JPN games right?

Yeah, they are not region locked like the DC guns seem to be.


OK thanks for the info. Using a Guncon 1 is no issue as I have one and they are decent. It just sounds like that patch is incomplete. All the GC1 and GC2 games I have require calibration for the guns to be accurate. I am guessing that any motivation to finish the patch died with CRT tech

Also, it doesn't sound like it mods the way the light gun works with the game. Those Konami hyper blasters work like the old-school light guns such as the Nes Zapper and Master System phaser. It just plugs into a regular joypad port with no further connections. The newer light guns like the guncon 1 and 2 or the Act Labs guns are fed the sync signal directly and register shots differently.

Still, it's an interesting exercise to test how much of light gun accuracy is in the hardware VS the software. The official Namco guns are certainly well made and they have superior lenses which allow more light through but.... It seems to be the pairing with Namco's software that makes the secret sauce.

Perhaps it's better to use PC emulators for Konami light gun games. The wingun GC2 drivers for Windows 7 has a calibration option and PS1 emulation is fairly complete if you have a decent PC. Plus, some of the Konami arcade games are playable in mame.

My Hyper Blaster just arrived so I plan to do some testing to see how well it performs if wired to a Konami arcade gun. I have an old Crypt Killer arcade gun somewhere.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2019 6:12 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
Smraedis wrote:
werk91 wrote:
I stay away from PAL games generally, especially if they don't offer 60hz support. My NTSC PS2 has a modchip so it can play them but we all know why NTSC-U/J is much better. If there's patched ISOs that force the Konami games to work with Guncons then there's not much point to get a Hyper Blaster/ Justifier I guess. I don't mind owning few guns, but I don't want a collection of every single one out there :mrgreen:

Yeah the NTSC versions are always better!
The patches are here: https://github.com/mirror/nuvee/tree/master/ps1%20-%20guncon%20conversions
Classicgamer wrote:
Please can you provide more info on how you patched Die Hard to work with the GC2? And, can it be done on other games?

On Die Hard, does the GC2 function as well as it does on Namco games or is it limited by the game software?

Link is above, it only works with the Guncon1.
It is somewhat limited by the game, because the screen doesn't flash on every shot. Also there is no calibration screen, so I had to just adapt to the aiming difference.
Video playing the patched NTSC version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40RMztgXK0s
Compared to my old video playing unpatched PAL version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IT6Ef2S ... A6E774F131

Cannonballs wrote:
USA guncon2s will work on JPN games right?

Yeah, they are not region locked like the DC guns seem to be.


I just watch the videos to see if I could see the difference but it's hard to tell much without seeing the gun sights in the shot to see where shots land in relation to the aim. It makes it hard to tell what, if any improvements there were.

Obviously there is a difference in game speed and screen real estate between the NTSC and Pal version. I just wonder if the NTSC patch effects how the light gun works. I.e. I don't know if they changed the code on the pal disc to work with the different res and refresh rate. Were both video's made on the same pal console and using the same pal disc as the source?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:30 am 



Joined: 29 Oct 2011
Posts: 56
What lightgun do you recommend for Xbox. Recently I found a copy of Starsky & Hutch and it sounds like a great coop game.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2019 9:01 am 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 1126
Location: Manchester, UK
Classicgamer wrote:
OK thanks for the info. Using a Guncon 1 is no issue as I have one and they are decent. It just sounds like that patch is incomplete. All the GC1 and GC2 games I have require calibration for the guns to be accurate. I am guessing that any motivation to finish the patch died with CRT tech

Also, it doesn't sound like it mods the way the light gun works with the game. Those Konami hyper blasters work like the old-school light guns such as the Nes Zapper and Master System phaser. It just plugs into a regular joypad port with no further connections. The newer light guns like the guncon 1 and 2 or the Act Labs guns are fed the sync signal directly and register shots differently.
Yeah the purpose of the patches is to allow the Guncon to work with the games. Die Hard doesn't have any calibration screen at all, so that is why there isn't one. I've linked the patches so then people don't need to buy the older guns alongside the Guncon1.
I think the patches were made so they could be played on emulation, and they do work well with it.
Sadly when playing on real hardware, as the screen doesn't flash on every shot, the gun isn't as accurate as it could be, but that is more of a game issue than a controller issue. You can see that in the videos I made. I've patched both the PAL and NTSC versions, they both play the same controller wise, but prefer the NTSC version due to the speed, and the screen flashing while slowdown is happening on the PAL version sure gives me headaches!

I tried WinGun many years ago, it worked pretty well for me, but it just wasn't accurate enough.
_________________
The Unknown? I'm the one who knows!
My shmup achievements | and my Superplays!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 4:39 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
The latest version of wingun works reasonably well if you use the right gun. It is still limited by the software though. I found it to be decent with groovymame once it was set up properly (in mame settings). It was definitely better for Time Crisis than my Aimtrak. It's not perfect though.

I haven't tried it with a PS2 or PS1 emulator yet. I keep meaning to so I can try playing Time Crisis 3 in 480p.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:41 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2011
Posts: 1315
Location: Bedfordshire, England.
Classicgamer wrote:
pcb_revival wrote:
You guys might be interested in the Sinden Lightgun for use on modern lcd displays with games running from an emulation source.
http://www.sindenlightgun.com/

There is also a side project to use the light gun on PS1 and PS2 hardware.
http://www.sindenlightgun.com/blog/playstation-1-and-2-original-console-sinden-lightgun-support/


I've been following the Sinden development since it was a Kickstarter. It's one of three new "light guns" for 2019.


What are the other 2 lightgun's for 2019?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 1:46 am 



Joined: 01 Jul 2015
Posts: 137
imagine owning a bc ps3 (hardware)
imagine buying vampire night on ps2 to finally play
then imagine trying to perfectly calibrate for hours, wondering if its your tv
then burning a backup to try that and to see if its your legit game thats the cause
then imagine giving up but doing one final thing: checking the bc wiki and seeing vampire night has known calibration issues

per the wiki:
"Yes - On the Guncon 2 calibration screen, the user is unable to properly calibrate the Guncon 2."

its crap like this thats gonna make me sell my BC PS3 and just grab a PS2 instead. i find it weird that ninja assault has ZERO calibration issues, but vampire night is damn unplayable

interestingly enough the other bc models (60/80gig):

"Yes - At various point throughout the title, various graphics randomly jitter."

nothing about compatibility issues, but this variance in compatibility make me uncomfortable. i love the ps3 for its 480p forcing and cfw but i will likely just sell my bc ps3 and pool that towards a modded ps2.

also i want to add for anyone curious using a ps3..... if you wanted to set the guncon calibration to "progressive" you would hold the trigger then push select (while aiming away from the screen). this would be a useful feature if it was actually doable when forcing ps3 to 480p but you cant do it while the ps3 is in 480p. only in when 480i, which is useless


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Light gun games compatibility
PostPosted: Wed Oct 09, 2019 2:37 am 



Joined: 30 Oct 2018
Posts: 69
kassj0peja wrote:
What lightgun do you recommend for Xbox. Recently I found a copy of Starsky & Hutch and it sounds like a great coop game.


Is there only lightgun for the Xbox?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 20 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: energizerfellow‚ÄĆ, fernan1234, Kez, Ryoandr and 10 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group