Adapters, Upscalers, Cables, Linedoublers ... but ...

[kassj0peja]

... what is still missing?

Apart from "older" devices like the OSSC and Retrotink 2x there are some other interesting options to operate old consoles on our preferred screens.

The MClassic was shipped this weekend and should arrive soon and today Mike Chi and retrogamingcables announced the RAD2x for various consoles. Mike Chi also released the RGB2COMP a few days ago and supposedly is working on a COMP2RGB too. Videogameperfection should release the Koryuu anytime soon too.

Very exciting times but what product you need or want is still missing.

Similar to the RAD2X which is based on the technology of the Retrotink 2x I would love to see a more universal solution which allows to plug in a RGB Scart cable.

Additionally I think a cheaper Retrotink 2x lite with only S-Video and Composite would be useful for some setups too.

[ldeveraux]

....today Mike Chi and retrogamingcables announced the RAD2x for various consoles.

I hadn't heard about this until now, so I just read up on it. I already have all RGB consoles with SCART/Component into an OSSC like many people at Shmups. I'm not trying to spend $50 per cable to terminate in HDMI and eliminate the OSSC. Would anyone do that?

[fernan1234]

....today Mike Chi and retrogamingcables announced the RAD2x for various consoles.

I hadn't heard about this until now, so I just read up on it. I already have all RGB consoles with SCART/Component into an OSSC like many people at Shmups. I'm not trying to spend $50 per cable to terminate in HDMI and eliminate the OSSC. Would anyone do that?

Here's RetroRGB's video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyE85OFGQpM

What it seems to have that no other options do (with the exception of older XRGB units?) is almost instant 240p/480i transitions.

[Sirotaca]

What it seems to have that no other options do (with the exception of older XRGB units?) is almost instant 240p/480i transitions.

The OSSC and the RetroTINK-2X (which the RAD2X cables are derived from) also have nearly instant transitions, but most TVs take a couple of seconds to resync after ANY interruption, so I wouldn't expect these cables to perform any differently. Capture cards tend to be much faster at resyncing.

As for the original topic, I'd like to see a compact universal RF demodulator with support for US, Japanese, and PAL frequencies for situations where you can't or don't want to modify the console.

[nmalinoski]

A wishlist? Oh, dear.

To start, the community still seems to be missing products that can handle TOSLINK for audio. None of the OSSC, Framemeister, RetroTINK products, superg's products, Pound's cables, or second-hand recommendations like the Extron DSC 301 HD are capable of pairing the analogue video they receive with digital audio (TOSLINK in most cases), which could be relevant to anyone with a PS2, Xbox, non-HDMI/Xenon Xbox 360; anyone with an HDMI-capable console with TOSLINK output (PS3, first-gen PS4, PS4 Pro, Xbox 360, Xbox One/S/X); anyone who utilizes the TOSLINK output on a PC; or any console modified with TOSLINK output (SNES at least; I think there are also TOSLINK mods for the PS1, GameCube, and Saturn at least ). If you have a surround setup like I do, it's especially relevant, because that's the only way you can get surround sound out of the Xbox.

Some support for S/PDIF via TOSLINK and/or coax in switchers exists, but it's rare. I have an Audio Authority 1154A, which is an automatic switcher that will handle digital audio via TOSLINK and coax (and there's a later, more-expensive 1154B model that also does that), and I believe there was a manually-switched ShinyBow model with TOSLINK, and someone did develop a TOSLINK board for the gscartsw (albeit a very small run, as far as I can tell), but that's all I've found in the past few years that I've been in this community.

I have read that some people are finding success with standalone TOSLINK switchers, but it concerns me that having discrete devices like that means specific video inputs cannot be associated with specific TOSLINK inputs, and I think that introduces a risk of getting video for one console and audio from another.

Additionally, one problem I've had trying to use TOSLINK with an OSSC is that, while I can route the TOSLINK output from my component switch around the OSSC, directly into my receiver, the OSSC always bundles an audio signal with its HDMI output, which prevents my AVR from falling back to TOSLINK. If I was just using one input on the OSSC, I'd route analogue audio around the OSSC as well; but I have analogue audio sources on both AV1 and AV2, which makes that impractical.

To that end, I think the community could use a newer OSSC with TOSLINK inputs in addition to analogue inputs (please no TRS/mini TOSLINK combo jacks), with support in the firmware for prioritizing TOSLINK audio over analogue when it's available.

I'd also like to see the layout of such an OSSC changed, so that all of the ports are on the back. It could be arranged, from right to left: AV1's SCART, TOSLINK, and audio breakout jacks; AV2's RCA jacks, ideally a 3x2 block, so we can negate the need for an RCA->TRS adapter, and even better if one of those positions can be the TOSLINK input; AV3's DE-15, TOSLINK, and 3.5mm TRS jacks; and then the HDMI output, a TOSLINK output (for compatibility with receivers that don't support audio over HDMI), and power. I know some people would also like to see a configurable DE-15 jack for analogue output; and there's a handful of us that want remote control, be it via USB, serial, and/or Ethernet; so those should be options as well.

Secondly, there's some demand for a gamer-focused HDMI switcher. This is becoming more relevant, as newer consoles support HDMI natively, and older consoles are getting HDMI mods (GameCube, Wii, N64, and Dreamcast already have them, with one for the PS1 in development, one for the PS2 on the horizon, and the original Xbox is a prime candidate).

As DirkSwizzler has proved by spending a bunch of time and money on numerous HDMI switchers and audio extractors, not every HDMI processor behaves the same. If there was a community-driven HDMI switcher with an open-source firmware, then we could have at least some control or influence over how that switcher functions; and I imagine it would be possible to build something with enough HDMI ports to satisfy most users, audio extraction and/or injection for people who need it, remote control (via USB, serial, and/or Ethernet), and potentially even the ability to configure automatic and/or matrix switching.

And, lastly, I think there could be some usefulness in a community-built alternative to Extron's RGB interfaces; something that could accept sync-on-luma and sync-on-composite, in addition to clean composite sync and sync-on-green, would immediately have an advantage over Extron's products. This would be immediately relevant to anyone wanting to use all video modes in RGB from an unmodified PS2, as well as the typical sync conversion use cases. Being a community device, it could be built with whatever inputs and outputs that might be needed; in addition to the usual I/O, it could be built with a SCART input, and it could, a la the BeharBros Toro, have a SCART output that always output RGBS. It could also be fitted with the usual niceties, like an LCD readout of the input signal, knobs for image position adjustment (could even remember position based on the input signal), and something like sync regeneration.

If it's cheap enough, it could easily replace Extron's RGB interfaces in anyone's setup, negate the need for inline sync strippers in medium and larger setups, and/or provide a simple compatibility layer for anyone who wants to use their retro gaming equipment with something like a CrossPoint.

As for the original topic, I'd like to see a compact universal RF demodulator with support for US, Japanese, and PAL frequencies for situations where you can't or don't want to modify the console.

This. You can get tuners fairly easily, but they tend to be limited to a single format (The rackmount tuner I have is NTSC-only); something that could handle all of and automatically detect and switch between NTSC, PAL, SECAM, and their variants, and demodulate stereo (where available), and output via composite (typical) and YPbPr (better for integration with the OSSC) would be a winner. It doesn't matter that it'll still look and sound like crap; the point is compatibility, not quality.

[orange808]

The older XRGB units only provide a seamless transition if you're directly connected to a CRT. A digital device will have to sync up to a change in the output.

Probably need a video processor that always outputs one signal to get perfectly seamless transitions. You can't have frame lock and seamless transitions with any current gear I know of.

The Silicon Optix IA-100 is the best performer I've owned that handles 240p properly and switches instantly to quality deinterlaced 480i, but there's probably more options. All them will likely be based on Faroudja deinterlacing.

[orange808]

Blonder Tongue and Videotek built rack unit demodulators that were multiformat. They are beyond useless now. Should be inexpensive.

I have a Videotek somewhere, but I switched to a Sony VCR. I only use NTSC and Sony tuners do a better job cleaning up noise.

[Guspaz]

One device I'd like to see some day is an HDMI switch, as you said.

Dream product:

- 16 inputs
- 2 outputs (with or without matrix, personally I'd be fine with just cloned)
- Autoswitching that works (maybe treat an all-black signal as "off" and just latch on to whatever the most recent input with a non-black image is)
- At least 4K60 support, ideally HDMI 2.1 for future proofing, passing through VRR
- No lag/delay/processing
- At least one S/PDIF and/or TOSLINK input for audio injection
- At least one 3.5mm jack for analog audio output
- Doesn't cause issues with off-spec signals (like the OSSC)

More realistic product:

- 16 inputs
- Autoswitching that works (maybe treat an all-black signal as "off" and just latch on to whatever the most recent input with a non-black image is)
- No lag/delay/processing
- Doesn't cause issues with off-spec signals (like the OSSC)

[nmalinoski]

....today Mike Chi and retrogamingcables announced the RAD2x for various consoles.

I hadn't heard about this until now, so I just read up on it. I already have all RGB consoles with SCART/Component into an OSSC like many people at Shmups. I'm not trying to spend $50 per cable to terminate in HDMI and eliminate the OSSC. Would anyone do that?

Here's RetroRGB's video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyE85OFGQpM

What it seems to have that no other options do (with the exception of older XRGB units?) is almost instant 240p/480i transitions.

I wonder what the reason is for having fixed dongles on the console end. If the firmware isn't any different between the different models, I would think that it would be more user-friendly to allow people to buy one unit and then any number of dongles for whatever consoles they have. If I'm the kind of person that just wants to use one or two compatible consoles (like a SNES and a Saturn), then I imagine it would be far cheaper to buy the converter unit and two dongles. Would an interconnect like that would cause too much signal degradation?

[ldeveraux]

One device I'd like to see some day is an HDMI switch, as you said.

Dream product:

- 16 inputs
- 2 outputs (with or without matrix, personally I'd be fine with just cloned)
- Autoswitching that works (maybe treat an all-black signal as "off" and just latch on to whatever the most recent input with a non-black image is)
- At least 4K60 support, ideally HDMI 2.1 for future proofing, passing through VRR
- No lag/delay/processing
- At least one S/PDIF and/or TOSLINK input for audio injection
- At least one 3.5mm jack for analog audio output
- Doesn't cause issues with off-spec signals (like the OSSC)

More realistic product:

- 16 inputs
- Autoswitching that works (maybe treat an all-black signal as "off" and just latch on to whatever the most recent input with a non-black image is)
- No lag/delay/processing
- Doesn't cause issues with off-spec signals (like the OSSC)

Your wish is my command!
https://www.retrorgb.com/17-port-hdmi-o ... -sale.html

I know, it's not 4k, homemade, 3D printed, manual switch, etc. But it sure is cool, and 17 inputs! It's really 4x 5-port switches tied together. I actually bought one when it went on sale, I use it to tie all my HDMI together at my gaming TV. Not only do I have video games from all eras, but also bluray, various streaming boxes, PC input, yada yada. I don't even use the touchscreen much, I programmed the IR commands to switch on my Harmony remote.

But I digress; I agree with your above requests. I know @dirkswizzler has had luck with the new HDFury, but those are too expensive to consider buying 3-4 of.

[Hoagtech]

I would like to see an OSSC 2 that handles 9x interferes for 4K and toslink/rca audio outputs

. Also having an HDMI input with that supports 4K input.

One more thing a built in DAC that bypasses HDCP would save me hassle of using a crappy Tendak and routing that to a cheap hdmi switch to bypass the digital handshake.

And no limititations for 240p on other inputs like VGA or component would make my day.

[rama]

Gbscontrol does some of the things mentioned here. I'm honestly always a little disappointed that no one seems to ever try it.
It's all open source and the dev thread for it is right here in this subforum. It has been active for years now.

Here's the intro blurp from the readme:

This project provides an alternative control software for Tvia Trueview5725 based upscalers / video converter boards.
Gbscontrol provides a complete replacement of the original solution, offering many improvements:

- very low lag
- sharp and defined upscaling, comparing well to other -expensive- units
- no synchronization loss switching 240p/480i (output runs independent from input, sync to display never drops)
- on demand motion adaptive deinterlacer that engages automatically and only when needed
- works with almost anything: 8 bit consoles, 16/32 bit consoles, 2000s consoles, home computers, etc
- little compromise, eventhough the hardware is very affordable (less than $30 typically)
- lots of useful features and image enhancements
- optional control interface via web browser, utilizing the ESP8266 WiFi capabilities
- good color reproduction with auto gain and auto offset for the tripple 8 bit @ 160MHz ADC
- optional bypass capability to, for example, transcode Component to RGB/HV in high quality

Supported standards are NTSC / PAL, the EDTV and HD formats, as well as VGA from 192p to 1600x1200 (earliest DOS, home computers, PC). Sources can be connected via RGB/HV (VGA), RGBS (game consoles, SCART) or Component Video (YUV). Various variations are supported, such as the PlayStation 2's VGA modes that run over Component cables.

The one thing it doesn't do is an out of the box experience, users have to pair it with an ESP8266 by soldering 5 wires.
The other thing is HDMI. Users can pair it with a $5 VGA to HDMI dongle that has a very easy job of transcoding the gbscontrol output.
This also takes care of combining audio with the video stream.

Sometimes I think that the low price of the complete solution makes it seem inferior.
It's not. It's a pretty awesome device

https://github.com/ramapcsx2/gbs-control

[Rotanibor]

Are there any high-quality and color accurate RGB to S-Video converters out there? This is something I frequently find myself needing.

[orange808]

Are there any high-quality and color accurate RGB to S-Video converters out there? This is something I frequently find myself needing.

The Time Harvest Supergun does it in a neat plug and play package that can sit on a shelf. Results look fine.

Don't know if it's perfection. Then again, few things are.

[orange808]

@Fudoh
Do you have a GBS scaler built?

I wouldn't normally ask this, but there's a promise of a high quality comb filter and high quality deinterlacing.

Is that something we could honestly expect?

[ldeveraux]

Here's RetroRGB's video on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyE85OFGQp

From reading his blog post about it, I get the impression that he either had a say in the design, or is otherwise getting a kickback from promoting it. I could be wrong, but that's my impression. That could explain why it's the "ONLY plug & play HDMI cables I’d recommend"

[Gunstar]

Gbscontrol does some of the things mentioned here. I'm honestly always a little disappointed that no one seems to ever try it.
It's all open source and the dev thread for it is right here in this subforum. It has been active for years now.

I keep meaning to explore this option and see how well it plays with the OSSC, it seems like it would tick some of the things I'd like to solve. Your work on the GBS is really amazing.

So since this is a wishlist thread I'd like an all-in-one box (or OSSC2) that has the following:
-Togglable 240p/480i buffer for seamless transitioning (I would be okay giving up a frame or two in games where I feel the timing is not essential, RPGs etc)
-Extron RGB style Horizontal and Vertical centering controls
-An interlacing option that prioritises picture quality over speed (as a partner to bob-deinterlacing where I might want speed over PQ)
-Downscaling 480p/i (or higher?) to 240p. I know there are existing devices that do this, and some of the other features I've listed, but they're not easily obtainable

[Xyga]

GBScontrol indeed looks very attractive, except for one major issue; it's not for everyone, basically it is like most open souce projects: you need a minimum of electronics building and programming knowledge to even begin to understand what's written on the wiki (went to the 'how to build' page and was like "what? is there something that's supposed to be obvious here? who is that adressed to?" what's with the sync thing now am I supposed to look into that too?" etc)

In short; pre-built and pre-installed it would sell like hot cakes.
Otherwise don't expect popularity beyond the small niche of nerds who will typically utter "are you kidding me this is so easy! anyone can understand and do that much! [on my planet]"

Honestly what most people rubbernecking this project expected, is that GBS-es flashed with a new greatly improved firmware would start selling somewhere, the end result is too far away from that, and today even if it's not ideal for interlaced sources the OSSC is easily available to everyone for not that much more money considering it is an all-inclusive plug-and-play solution.

#harshreality

[nmalinoski]

GBScontrol indeed looks very attractive, except for one major issue; it's not for everyone, basically it is like most open souce projects: you need a minimum of electronics building and programming knowledge to even begin to understand what's written on the wiki (went to the 'how to build' page and was like "what? is there something that's supposed to be obvious here? who is that adressed to?" what's with the sync thing now am I supposed to look into that too?" etc)

In short; pre-built and pre-installed it would sell like hot cakes.
Otherwise don't expect popularity beyond the small niche of nerds who will typically utter "are you kidding me this is so easy! anyone can understand and do that much! [on my planet]"

Honestly what most people rubbernecking this project expected, is that GBS-es flashed with a new greatly improved firmware would start selling somewhere, the end result is too far away from that, and today even if it's not ideal for interlaced sources the OSSC is easily available to everyone for not that much more money considering it is an all-inclusive plug-and-play solution.

#harshreality

This. I don't want to bother with the GBS gear because it requires me to buy a bunch of stuff and do modifications before it becomes usable; there's no polish.

Also, having to buy a VGA to HDMI converter to get HDMI support is not ideal; an ideal solution would not involve another digital->analogue->digital conversion.

[werk91]

Yup, gotta admit I expected by now that someone would've started offering pre-flashed GBS units. I still have a stock GBS from years ago and at one point was even considering going the custom FW route.
Even though I am a software programmer and probably could pull it all off... I really would much rather spend a bit extra and get something like an OSSC. Time is money too

[rama]

Yeah, I get that.
I'm just one guy doing all this though, trying to get the project some exposure.
My hope is that someone does indeed pick it up, partner or whatever, and does the hardware / convenience part.
That's why it's open source, documented, ready to pick up and use (to developers at least).

The software is the expensive upfront costs part in this, and it's all done.
I'm also still adding and improving features, making it ever more versatile.

Anyway, about that VGA to HDMI step:
General wisdom seems to be that all AD conversions must be destructive.
Well, at a cable "length" of 5cm, with the high quality DACs in the GBS and the modern AD chips in HDMI dongle like these

the conversion is of good quality.
It might be better even than running a regular VGA cable into a mediocre VGA port on a flat screen.
The result is certainly on par with any other non-pixel perfect upscaler out there.

[DirkSwizzler]

Things that would be awesome in descending order of awesomeness:

-An OSSC that doesn't output any signal or +5V when there's no input signal. The default grayscale really screws up a LOT of HDMI autoswitching opportunities.
-An OSSC that could integrate SPDIF into it's output. I'm currently getting around this by using a jtech digital embedder. But it's an extra HDMI hop and the compatibility is only 95% instead of perfect.
-An OSSC that could do 960p in a 1080p frame. My TV screws up on this. And the HDFury X4 isn't a perfect fix (and I still haven't lag tested it).
-A good set of analog to analog transcoders for rf,composite,s-video, and component to RGB that don't output any signal when inactive. There's a lot of ad-hoc solutions outside of component. And all the component to rgb transcoders have at least 1 significant flaw.
-A priority based HDMI autoswitch with 2 full outputs. And hopefully an audio-only 3rd hdmi output. Right now I'm using an extra HDMI hop to get my dual video outputs, and another hop to get audio-only output. If I could plug the OSSC into exactly 1 switch that does those things. My resync time on resolution switch would be significantly reduced.
-An OSSC that can natively output 4K. Just to remove TV scaling from the equation entirely. There are a few HDFury products that can scale 1080p to 4K. But there's a mixed bag of drawbacks there.

[Guspaz]

Some of those (like the test pattern thing) could possibly be fixed in firmware.

[DirkSwizzler]

Some of those (like the test pattern thing) could possibly be fixed in firmware.

Yeah, I thought so too. Which is why I put in the request 13 months ago :/

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52158&p=1331238#p1331238

Understandeably, that's not going to clear up the 5v constant output. But that seems much more solveable with hardware mods. And I'm willing to bet some hdmi switchers will reject 5v without accompanying data.

[nmalinoski]

Some of those (like the test pattern thing) could possibly be fixed in firmware.

Not showing the test pattern on startup could definitely be an option fixable with a firmware change, but I would want to see that come with the ability to hold both BTN0 and BTN1 when powering on the OSSC to do a factory reset.

The test image can be very useful in debugging video problems, and, if you're not getting video out of the OSSC, it would be convenient to do a quick factory reset (or at least a reset of that specific option) to ensure the OSSC is displaying the test image.

[werk91]

Since this is the only thread the new RAD2X linedouble cables by RGC have been mentioned... How will the results be if I grab one of these for my PS2, to use the deinterlaced output on a PVM?
Obviously will convert the HDMI output to Component with a simple transcoder box. I can see they're meant to be basically the same internals of the RetroTink 2x so I'm expecting a decent flicker free image.
Light gun support will no longer be present but if I want to play such a game I can just swap the cable back to my RGB Scart one

[makar1]

Since this is the only thread the new RAD2X linedouble cables by RGC have been mentioned... How will the results be if I grab one of these for my PS2, to use the deinterlaced output on a PVM?
Obviously will convert the HDMI output to Component with a simple transcoder box. I can see they're meant to be basically the same internals of the RetroTink 2x so I'm expecting a decent flicker free image.
Light gun support will no longer be present but if I want to play such a game I can just swap the cable back to my RGB Scart one

You'll just end up with bob de-interlaced flicker rather than native 480i flicker. The only way to get a flicker free image is to output 480p in games that support it.