CRT for ntsc consoles in EU

[nullifer]

Hello,

I currently live in EU, but I own all NTSC-UC consoles.
What kind of options would I have when it comes to CRTs?

[Guspaz]

Any professional monitor (like a PVM) should be able to handle both NTSC and PAL. Though, check the brochure first.

[Xyga]

No, that's good for people living in N-A but here in Europe we still have tons of used consumer CRTs with RGB SCART input that take both PAL and NTSC (even though only 50Hz is written on the back label), and they can be found for peanuts or even free.
Nothing more easy and convenient than that as many of the PAL consoles output SCART too anyway (and many sets feature S-Video & Composite along for your NTSC consoles. Component is different though, real progressive scan is not a thing here)

If you went for a pro/broadcast monitor, unless a lucky find, you'd pay stupid prices even for a 14", as the internet sharks have now long smelled retrogamer blood, and even completely rinsed units in need of heavy servicing can sell for hundreds.
With used consumers on the other hand there is much less risk of buyer's remorse, you can try several and keep the one(s) you like best.

So unless Italy has a specific law to force people to recycle old electronics ASAP until none is left in the wild, 4:3 consumers of various sizes 14", 21", 25", 29" can be found in second hand electronics shops, junk, classifieds, or just rummaging around in your neighborhood.

Just absolutely avoid the 16:9 and 100Hz models, and note that older than mid-90's sets often lack the NTSC compatibility (there aren't many of those left tho).
A few mid-90's-2000's sets can still lack NTSC compatibility though, it happens sometimes to find one, I've been had with Grundig once, but those should be in minority.

Also if I were you I would avoid the large flat tube ones like the fancy early 2000's Sony, since they tend to have terrible geometry issues that are very hard to fix. And they're significantly heavier than average.

[nullifer]

No, that's good for people living in N-A but here in Europe we still have tons of used consumer CRTs with RGB SCART input that take both PAL and NTSC (even though only 50Hz is written on the back label), and they can be found for peanuts or even free.
Nothing more easy and convenient than that as many of the PAL consoles output SCART too anyway (and many sets feature S-Video & Composite along for your NTSC consoles. Component is different though, real progressive scan is not a thing here)

If you went for a pro/broadcast monitor, unless a lucky find, you'd pay stupid prices even for a 14", as the internet sharks have now long smelled retrogamer blood, and even completely rinsed units in need of heavy servicing can sell for hundreds.
With used consumers on the other hand there is much less risk of buyer's remorse, you can try several and keep the one(s) you like best.

So unless Italy has a specific law to force people to recycle old electronics ASAP until none is left in the wild, 4:3 consumers of various sizes 14", 21", 25", 29" can be found in second hand electronics shops, junk, classifieds, or just rummaging around in your neighborhood.

Just absolutely avoid the 16:9 and 100Hz models, and note that older than mid-90's sets often lack the NTSC compatibility (there aren't many of those left tho).
A few mid-90's-2000's sets can still lack NTSC compatibility though, it happens sometimes to find one, I've been had with Grundig once, but those should be in minority.

Also if I were you I would avoid the large flat tube ones like the fancy early 2000's Sony, since they tend to have terrible geometry issues that are very hard to fix. And they're significantly heavier than average.

So stay away from this for example?

[Xyga]

Not necessarily, if you can really confirm two things;

- it's not 100Hz
- geometry is good

then you can go.

But honestly the only consumer flat Trinitrons I've seen age well are the 14" and 21".
The 29" (actually 27") can age badly: really disastrous geometry, and very off convergence I forgot to mention.

Not that other brands and curved tubes can't have the same issues, but once you get a large flat Trinitron that happens to be bad, you basically acquire a 50Kg paper press, because they're so hard to fix/service.

A bit older Trinitrons (like the end-90's with black casing) featuring a slightly curved tube are better IMO, though probably harder to find today.

[nullifer]

Not necessarily, if you can really confirm two things;

- it's not 100Hz
- geometry is good

then you can go.

But honestly the only consumer flat Trinitrons I've seen age well are the 14" and 21".
The 29" (actually 27") can age badly: really disastrous geometry, and very off convergence I forgot to mention.

Not that other brands and curved tubes can't have the same issues, but once you get a large flat Trinitron that happens to be bad, you basically acquire a 50Kg paper press, because they're so hard to fix/service.

A bit older Trinitrons (like the end-90's with black casing) featuring a slightly curved tube are better IMO, though probably harder to find today.

Honestly if I can't get my hands on a larger PVM, i'm looking to get something in the 30" range for consumer CRT.
The Larger older Trinitrons would be ok?

[Xyga]

Yes but there are no 30"-or-bigger 4:3 consumer CRTs in Europe, at best the ones labelled 29" that are actually 27".

Only the rear-projection ones are bigger, good luck find a working one though, they're pretty much all trash now.

EDIT; honestly try anything that's cheap or free and looks in good-enough shape, don't limit yourself to Sony, that's the mistake a lot of people make. The best used large consumer CRTs I've found were completely random picks, my lagest is a 29" low-end BlueSky from the early 2000's that cost me nothing and does amazing compared to all the large Sony's I've found around, and that's a much more satisfying solution than a massively overpriced PVM, of which many around neeed insane servicing.
Sony is the retrogamer's cult trap.

[nullifer]

Yes but there are no 30"-or-bigger 4:3 consumer CRTs in Europe, at best the ones labelled 29" that are actually 27".

Only the rear-projection ones are bigger, good luck find a working one though, they're pretty much all trash now.

That trinitron in the picture is a 35" and another one i've seen is 39"

[Xyga]

That trinitron in the picture is a 35" and another one i've seen is 39"

Never seen any consumer 4:3 of that size around ever, on sale or used. And the one in the pic doesn't look like it.

EDIT: they may exist, if so I've never seen one, they must be extremely rare. And flat ? I doubt so, not in Europe at least, and 39" is even more unlikely.
The only ones of that size I've seen were in arcades.

[DejahThoris]

That trinitron in the picture is a 35" and another one i've seen is 39"

Never seen any consumer 4:3 of that size around ever, on sale or used. And the one in the pic doesn't look like it.

EDIT: they may exist, if so I've never seen one, they must be extremely rare. And flat ? I doubt so, not in Europe at least, and 39" is even more unlikely.
The only ones of that size I've seen were in arcades.

In the US 39" 4:3 consumer sets were a thing. Not super popular, but you see them on and off. But I don't think I've ever seen flat one over 36".

[Xyga]

Yeah (weren't there even bigger ones in the US?), extra large 4:3 CRTs any category were not common here, again only the rear-projection, and if bigger than 27/29 consumers were actually around somewhere in Europe, they must be even harder to find than pro models like the Mitsubishi's.
@nullifier; if you've actually found one then I defnitely want to see the info (but it can't be that Trini in the pic)

[DejahThoris]

I've never seen one bigger than 40". But maybe?

We didn't get anything else large in 4:3. No consumer plasmas (NEC/Hitachi Pro displays may be the only ones I'm aware of at all), no large 4:3 LCDs either. Just rear projection and CRT's where 32/36 were fairly common.

[MKL]

Yes but there are no 30"-or-bigger 4:3 consumer CRTs in Europe, at best the ones labelled 29" that are actually 27".

Of course there are. The biggest Sonys are the 34" (32" viewable) models made in 1993-94 with the AE-2 chassis. This is one of them:

https://www.ebay.it/itm/293216197455

Then Sony went back to 29" as the biggest 4:3 size with the exception of the flat model KV-34FQ75.

With other brands like Grundig you can go up to up 37" (35V).

[Xyga]

Well 'of course' is not what comes to mind, definitely exceptional sizes series that must have sold in small quantities as I've never seen any not even the shadow of one in about 6 or 7 EU countries I've been to, not a single one, though that ebay link one maybe rings a bell from gamoover now that I see it. But the KV-34FQ75 is the most surprising here.

That's great then, hope neither is 100Hz though.

[Classicgamer]

Yes but there are no 30"-or-bigger 4:3 consumer CRTs in Europe, at best the ones labelled 29" that are actually 27".

Only the rear-projection ones are bigger, good luck find a working one though, they're pretty much all trash now.

EDIT; honestly try anything that's cheap or free and looks in good-enough shape, don't limit yourself to Sony, that's the mistake a lot of people make. The best used large consumer CRTs I've found were completely random picks, my lagest is a 29" low-end BlueSky from the early 2000's that cost me nothing and does amazing compared to all the large Sony's I've found around, and that's a much more satisfying solution than a massively overpriced PVM, of which many around neeed insane servicing.
Sony is the retrogamer's cult trap.

That's not true. Our neighbor had a 32" and 40" Sony Trinitron when I lived in the UK. I'm sure there were others too. 30" was definitely not the ceiling.

[Xyga]

Next thing you guys are going to tell me they were growing on trees, and that would be bullshit, of course, but you will anyway.

[Classicgamer]

Not necessarily, if you can really confirm two things;

- it's not 100Hz
- geometry is good

then you can go.

But honestly the only consumer flat Trinitrons I've seen age well are the 14" and 21".
The 29" (actually 27") can age badly: really disastrous geometry, and very off convergence I forgot to mention.

Not that other brands and curved tubes can't have the same issues, but once you get a large flat Trinitron that happens to be bad, you basically acquire a 50Kg paper press, because they're so hard to fix/service.




Honestly if I can't get my hands on a larger PVM, i'm looking to get something in the 30" range for consumer CRT.
The Larger older Trinitrons would be ok?

Every Sony Trinitron I ever owned (in the UK) from the early 90's onwards was both NTSC compatible and had RGB scart. The only exception was the 14" Trinitron in my bedroom which had 60hz RGB scart but not NTSC.

There are definitely other brands with RGB scart but it's not the guarantee that it is with Sony Trinitrons. Most mid to high end Toshiba, Panasonic and Sharp CRT's were 60hz and RGB compatible but I have also seen CRT tv's from all of those brands with no RGB or NTSC.

So, you can still go for other brands but my advice would be to try before you buy if you need NTSC and RGB compatibility. There were some amazing Sharp models with curved screens and RGB that I rate above all others for vintage gaming. I would make sure to stick to Japanese brands though.

I also agree with the poster that said older Trinitrons with the black case were better than the later flat fine pitch silver models.

[MKL]

Our neighbor had a 32" and 40" Sony Trinitron when I lived in the UK.

No, those sizes never existed in Europe/UK.

[Classicgamer]

Yes they did. We used to go round there to watch football because he had the biggest TV.
Nothing is ever going to convince me that I didn't see what I saw.

While it's going to be hard to prove what Crt TV my neighbor had 25 years ago, I can show various Pal region CRTs in larger sizes than the 30" ceiling claim.

For example, this guy in Australia (a 240v 50hz pal region) likes to review old CRT tv's with RGB scart (for gaming). This video shows a 37" pal Mitsubishi (with rgb scart):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2TTVGdsB0E

He shows a number of larger pal CRT's but I chose this video because we had that model in my college classrooms. Most RGB scart tv's in oz are EU models.

This is another showing a similar size Grundig. Grundig is a German brand) also with RGB scart.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwognv5HhDE

This is all academic as there is very little chance of finding a larger crt TV with RGB scart going cheap. And, even if they were cheap and plentiful it would probably be better to stick to a 27" (sold as 29" in Europe) or a 23" (sold as 25"). mid 90's Trinitrons in those sizes are still easy to find in the UK and it's probably the same across western Europe. I threw one away there myself recently.

[Xyga]

Beliving they existed is not the problem anymore, we've seen proof here so that's fine, but they were definitely a rare sight then, you were just lucky.

My guess is there were only a handful of models, little production and short distribution networks (above-average AV stores?), that's how I'd explain that despite having seen maybe thousands of consumer CRTs I've still missed those larger 4:3, like most people do until they see one much later on the internet.

(Funnily reminds me of when someone told me about about contrabass saxophones and I thought he dreamt it, until I saw one in Germany lol)

I kind of understand why though, for most carriers and retail even rear-projection TVs were much less hassle.

[MKL]

Yes they did. We used to go round there to watch football because he had the biggest TV.
Nothing is ever going to convince me that I didn't see what I saw.

Your recollections are irrelevant as there is no European Sony bigger than 34". And you don't need to tell me there is a 37" Grundig after I said that myself.

[Taiyaki]

So stay away from this for example?

Most CRT's I remember seeing in France that were made post late 90's were NTSC compatible from what I remember (especially if a Japanese brand I would think).

Removed the pic in order to keep the post clean, but that's exactly the kind of tv I'd recommend personally. Doesn't have to be Sony, but any flat crt gives out a far better picture in my experience. Those Wega tubes are particularly impressive in terms of brightness and colors, (signature traits of aperture grille tubes). Curved tubes with shadow masks run on three different guns (red, blue and green) for the beam and often times one or two of start going bad which affects colors in a big way. I think the only reason to go curved is if that's what you feel nostalgic for (the mask has a very special appeal to many gamers).

As Xyga said flat are more prone to geometrical issues (even when new out of the box), which often times can only be resolved from the inside. There are tons of geometrical settings available on the deflection board section of the service menu, so sometimes you can get the job done with those, but generally it's hard to get all the corners right without manually applying permalloy strips or via rings). That being said curved tend to be dimmer and also suffer from convergence and sometimes geometrical issues, so there's no perfect solution, and often times if you want to improve the set you end up having to open it up anyway.

Basically go for the kind of picture you're aiming for. If the last crt's you used were curved, you'll probably like those better, if you had flat from the 2000 era, then you'll probably want those, and if you don't have any particular preference try the different types of tubes to see which you like best (aperture grille, shadow mask, invar etc).

[Xyga]

Honestly the flat Trinitrons, when the geometry's fucked enough, you won't get away with service menu and magnet strips, you'll have to redo it from scratch manipulating the yoke with he screen facing a mirror.
I've seen enough in that sorry state and they needed that level of service, that's why I don't recommend, or tell people to be very careful (absolutely try before buying, disregard those that have anything more serious than very minor distortion)
And from what I've witnessed they have as much convergence issues as the curved if not more, large flat Trinitrons are a mess, anyone has to weigh this before getting one because what's picture quality next to all that trouble ?
The only sets aging even worse than this I've seen were the late 'slim tube' TV's. With those even the 21" should be avoided.

[Lawfer]

Hello,

I currently live in EU, but I own all NTSC-UC consoles.
What kind of options would I have when it comes to CRTs?

Most TVs made at the end of the 90's should be able to handle NTSC.

[Xyga]

From the mid-90's rather, with only a few exceptions here and there.

[Taiyaki]

Honestly the flat Trinitrons, when the geometry's fucked enough, you won't get away with service menu and magnet strips, you'll have to redo it from scratch manipulating the yoke with he screen facing a mirror.
I've seen enough in that sorry state and they needed that level of service, that's why I don't recommend, or tell people to be very careful (absolutely try before buying, disregard those that have anything more serious than very minor distortion)
And from what I've witnessed they have as much convergence issues as the curved if not more, large flat Trinitrons are a mess, anyone has to weigh this before getting one because what's picture quality next to all that trouble ?
The only sets aging even worse than this I've seen were the late 'slim tube' TV's. With those even the 21" should be avoided.

That's not exactly my experience, but those big tv's always have terrible problems regardless of whether aperture grille or shadow mask imo. I find the geometry/convergence on mid size sets tend to be noticeably better. On the majority of flat sets I've opened up, half an hour in the service menu and adding some permalloy strips to finish the corner and the job is generally done, resulting in an excellent balance in both geometry and convergence. I've only ever had one case that really needed some ring adjustments because an entire edge (not a corner) was out of alignment. Either way though yes, people should test the tv's thoroughly first, especially if picking up a heavy weight.

[Classicgamer]

Honestly the flat Trinitrons, when the geometry's fucked enough, you won't get away with service menu and magnet strips, you'll have to redo it from scratch manipulating the yoke with he screen facing a mirror.
I've seen enough in that sorry state and they needed that level of service, that's why I don't recommend, or tell people to be very careful (absolutely try before buying, disregard those that have anything more serious than very minor distortion)
And from what I've witnessed they have as much convergence issues as the curved if not more, large flat Trinitrons are a mess, anyone has to weigh this before getting one because what's picture quality next to all that trouble ?
The only sets aging even worse than this I've seen were the late 'slim tube' TV's. With those even the 21" should be avoided.

That's not exactly my experience, but those big tv's always have terrible problems regardless of whether aperture grille or shadow mask imo. I find the geometry/convergence on mid size sets tend to be noticeably better. On the majority of flat sets I've opened up, half an hour in the service menu and adding some permalloy strips to finish the corner and the job is generally done, resulting in an excellent balance in both geometry and convergence. I've only ever had one case that really needed some ring adjustments because an entire edge (not a corner) was out of alignment. Either way though yes, people should test the tv's thoroughly first, especially if picking up a heavy weight.

There was always the tube lottery (similar to today's panel lottery) so you could both be right. It's also worth noting that Trinitrons came in a broad range of prices - from the entry level (for a Sony) up to the high end uber expensive.

I've seen a lot of variation from one TV to another. Some of that variation is from the factory and other times it's down to how it was treated. The ones with 20,000+ hours on the tube often start to show it with things like worsening geometry issues. It's one of the things that all those CRT caps kits on ebay are meant to help (apparently).

Also, Sony had a bunch of different tube factories all over the world. It's not much of a stretch to assume quality differed a little from one location to another.

[Classicgamer]

Hello,

I currently live in EU, but I own all NTSC-UC consoles.
What kind of options would I have when it comes to CRTs?

Most TVs made at the end of the 90's should be able to handle NTSC.

There is no guarantee. There were plenty of cheap crt's that couldn't handle NTSC or 60hz, or RGB.

Also, some that claimed to be NTSC compatible were only NTSC 4.43 and not NTSC 3.58. With NTSC 4.43, American consoles will play but with black borders as if they were a Pal console.

So.... It's always best to try before buying to be safe... Especially if it's not a quality Japanese brand.

As a side note, most consoles don't need NTSC color if the TV can handle a 60hz RGB signal.