Retrotink 2x only for 240p and 480i content

[kassj0peja]

Surprisingly there is now topic for the Retrotink 2x and I did not want it to post in another topic.

With the upcoming MClassic I did a lot of research how do use some more modern retro consoles (again (I have not used them actually in the last few years).

I know there are superior internal HDMI solutions for Gamecube and Dreamcast but I also came across the Retrotink 2x which outputs a 480p signal that can be upscaled to 1440p with the MClassic.

The problem is the Retrotink does only support input signals 240i, 240p and 480i. Most PS2 games only support 480i and PAL Xbox and PAL GC too. So am I correct if I say that for these three consoles (besides older generations) the Retrotink makes sense?

But how does a combination of a 480i console (with component cable and Retrotink) compare its HDMI modded counterpart?

I am wondering because with the upcoming component cables from retrogamingcables.uk (Gamecube & Dreamcast) and the existing ones for Xbox the Retrotink could be a more interesting solution compared to HDMI mods or the OSSC.

[Fudoh]

Feeding just 480i when the source system would also support 480p does impact the quality quite a bit. If you get an OSSC instead you wouldn't have to worry about that. For 480p component output (e.g. from an original XBox or a PS2 with games that support it), you can add a cheap component to HDMI converter (without scaling) in between if you like to use the mClassic with a source like that.

[kassj0peja]

And these cheap converters dont produce any lag? That is one of the advantages of the Retrotink 2x

[orange808]

And these cheap converters dont produce any lag? That is one of the advantages of the Retrotink 2x

Nope. They don't add latency.

If you passthrough 480i from the Retrotink to the display for proper deinterlacing, that will add lag.

If you use the Retrotink2x for bob deinterlacing it won't as good.

But, if you send 480p directly from the console, through a cheap component to HDMI, and into the display, it will probably always look better than 480i.

[Galgomite]

I would recommend going cheap if you want a solution for a 480i console. There are excellent scalers for 240P and 480P but nothing deserves a lot of money for 480i yet... The results I’ve seen are “Pretty good but very expensive” or “Pretty good but with dropouts.”

In other words a $30 hdmi adapter from Amazon won’t be too far off from the best hardware solution available, until something new comes along.

We discussed a similar topic a few months back, if you want to see what was suggested:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63962

[orange808]

What specific inexpensive gear handles 480i deinterlacing well?

[makar1]

It doesn't make any sense to use the Retrotink with a PAL Gamecube, given that the analogue AV port only outputs Composite and RGB.

The external HDMI adapters e.g. Carby let you directly output 576i either directly or bob-deinterlaced. You can also use Swiss to force progressive output in most PAL games.

[RIP-Felix]

I'm pretty sure those cheap component to HDMI converters pass 480i through to the TV. Then the TV will deinterlace it. That is where major lag is usually introduced. That the point of the Retrotink2x and OSSC. They can bob deinterlace 480i -> 480p, not as accurate, but virtually lagless. Then the TV can take the 480p signal and upscale to the screen's native resolution without a major hit to input lag.

The mClassic requires a source input of 480p or above. It doesn't do any deinterlacing on it's own, so I doubt it would work with those cheap adapters for any console producing passing through 240p or 480i. You'd just get a black screen.

I just got an OSSC. A retrotink + mClassic is more expensive. Just start with the solution and save money in the end.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[BONKERS]

Some TV's don't add that much lag with 480i deinterlacing. Only way to check though is with something like the Time Sleuth.
Chances are, the lag added may be "good enough" to be playable for you.

Some Tvs also do different de-interlacing whether they are in 4:4:4/Game Mode or not too. One of my TVs uses a deinterlacing mode that flickers a bit more (Un aware if it is bob) when in game mode to keep the lag down. It looks decent enough.


I bought a DVDO device this past year and for 480i content it's pretty decent for 30FPS games. 60FPS games don't look as nice in motion (I don't know if it does a different method with 60i content. As it has a light for Film Mode that engages with some 30FPS content where the deinterlace looks nicer). But it's an older one with VGA out only. So still analog.

[nmalinoski]

Some Tvs also do different de-interlacing whether they are in 4:4:4/Game Mode or not too. One of my TVs uses a deinterlacing mode that flickers a bit more (Un aware if it is bob) when in game mode to keep the lag down. It looks decent enough.

This is what happens with my decade-old Samsung LCD; I always keep it in Game Mode, and there's no visual difference between 480i passthrough and bob-deinterlaced 480i from my OSSC.

[Galgomite]

Console-specific hdmi adapter cables like the Level Hike one for Saturn are serviceable for both 240p and 480i games. They deinterlace adequately and avoid dropouts altogether.

[Fudoh]

Console-specific hdmi adapter cables like the Level Hike one for Saturn are serviceable for both 240p and 480i games.

first: I haven't tried any of the LevelHike cables, but I recently stumbled across a youtube video which had some footage and the deinterlacer on those is clearly not magaging the 240p very well. And by this I don't mean the usual 480i-mistreatment seen on a myriad of Scart to HDMI upscalers, but I'm talking about heavy line shudder.

In the video here you can see Gunhed on the PCE (which is usually scrolling vertically quite smoothly, but here it's choppy as hell) and shortly after that you see Bonk (horizontally scrolling) and you can clearly see all the horizontal lines (e.g. the ground) jumping up and down. https://youtu.be/bamqdlXfLiQ?t=356

I guess the Saturn version of the cable isn't any different.

[orange808]

That's almost as bad as the Barco Imagepro HD bob deinterlacing. Almost.

[RIP-Felix]

I know there are superior internal HDMI solutions for Gamecube and Dreamcast but I also came across the Retrotink 2x which outputs a 480p signal that can be upscaled to 1440p with the MClassic.

The problem is the Retrotink does only support input signals 240i, 240p and 480i. Most PS2 games only support 480i and PAL Xbox and PAL GC too. So am I correct if I say that for these three consoles (besides older generations) the Retrotink makes sense?

The mClassic will cause image degradation from it's image processing. It will crush some darks to black and oversaturate colors. The artificial sharpening will cause ringing artifacts too. However, most viewers I've asked like the result. These are tricks designed to fool the average observer that the image is sharper and more colorful, when in reality there is less information. If you like the effect, great! You usually lose the ability to utilize these features on your TV in game mode, because they cause a hit to input latency. Offloading the job to the mClassic seems like an interesting idea. However, if you don't like the effect, you can't turn off the "enhancements". It's all or nothing. The upscaling and antialiasing are the features I'd be interested in, but I want a way to toggle the image processing. Your milage may vary, and that's fine.

But how does a combination of a 480i console (with component cable and Retrotink) compare its HDMI modded counterpart?

I am wondering because with the upcoming component cables from retrogamingcables.uk (Gamecube & Dreamcast) and the existing ones for Xbox the Retrotink could be a more interesting solution compared to HDMI mods or the OSSC.

By way of example, I'll use my ultraHDMI modded N64 and DCHDMI modded Dreamcast. If you remember the video jump from composite to s-video, the difference between component via RetroTink2x and a truly Digital-to-Digital 1080p integer scaled image is about equal. In my opinion, it's that far of a step up from 480p. Now if you were to use the OSSC to output 960p, then the jump from that to the HDMI mod's image is not as great of a leap. Similarly, I would have to say that mClassic does a good enough job of upscaling 480p-1080p to make me say the difference between that combo and the HDMI mods is not that far. One thing I appreciate most about the HDMI mods is that they clean up noise I was unable to completely remove from the analog signals, even with well built cables for each console. However, the jump up from what I got from the OSSC to what I get from the HDMI mods is a luxury for the price they demand. A step up for sure, but an expensive one. As I said previously, the mClassic + RetroTink is still going to be more expensive than the OSSC, but won't produce a better result. So that's not a substitute.

Console --[480i via component]--> RetroTink2x --[Bob-deinterlaced 480p via HDMI]--> TV = Pretty dam good! The excess lag should be reduced to what the TV can't help, which is the main thing. The TV's upscale from 480p-->the native screen resolution (lets say 4K) will not be as sharp as it could be however, since they typically don't perform a nearest neighbor like integer scale. Instead sharp edges get blurred slightly. The effect gets worse the further upscale has to go, 240p-->8k will be blurrier than 240p-->4k or 480p-->1080p and etc.

Console --[1080p via a Digital to Digital HDMI mod]--> TV = Best possible solution. The excess lag should be reduced to what the TV can't help. The TV's upscale from 1080p-->4K will not be as sharp as it could be, but much better since it only has to scale 2x to 2160p. Most 4K sets do this very well. Also, because your HDMI mod takes the video signal directly off the Digital chip before it ever gets converted to analog by the DAC, the signal is truly lossless. HDMI mods specifically tailored to a console's peculiarities offer a major improvement, but for a premium price.

I would say the OSSC is the middle ground for the budget minded. You don't get composite or s-video like with the RetroTink, so you'll have to decide if the RetroTink2x is also needed (like for the NES). The SNES and N64 can be RGB modded to work with the OSSC.

[Galgomite]

Console-specific hdmi adapter cables like the Level Hike one for Saturn are serviceable for both 240p and 480i games.

first: I haven't tried any of the LevelHike cables, but I recently stumbled across a youtube video which had some footage and the deinterlacer on those is clearly not magaging the 240p very well. And by this I don't mean the usual 480i-mistreatment seen on a myriad of Scart to HDMI upscalers, but I'm talking about heavy line shudder.

In the video here you can see Gunhed on the PCE (which is usually scrolling vertically quite smoothly, but here it's choppy as hell) and shortly after that you see Bonk (horizontally scrolling) and you can clearly see all the horizontal lines (e.g. the ground) jumping up and down. https://youtu.be/bamqdlXfLiQ?t=356

I guess the Saturn version of the cable isn't any different.

I am I am not saying that the cable is the second coming, my point was that there is no solution that’s worth a lot of money if you are buying for a 480i console. This one at least can deliver video transitions with zero dropouts. There are 100 scalars better-suited for the PC engine but it’s apples and oranges.

[Fudoh]

but it’s apples and oranges.

no, actually it's apples (Retrotink), oranges (your next best Scart to HDMI converter) and cow dung (this particular cable).

[orange808]

There certainly are solutions worth a little money.

Off the top of my head, a Silicon Optix IA-100 can handle 240p and 480i properly and it transitions very very quickly without dropping sync with the display. Deinterlacing is respectable. SOIA tops out at 720p, so add an iScan Micro and you have fast 1080p upscaling.

Best image quality? No. (The SOIA softens 240p and the Micro adds a little ringing)
Lowest lag? No.
Frame rate conversion? Yes. (Of course, because it transitions quickly!)

But, it beats the crap out of that cable. Add a low lag display and you're in business.

[Galgomite]

but it’s apples and oranges.

no, actually it's apples (Retrotink), oranges (your next best Scart to HDMI converter) and cow dung (this particular cable).

So the best option for ps2 is bob deinterlacing and dropouts any time there’s a resolution change? I say again, it’s a good idea to save money and go cheap until something truly good arrives.

[Galgomite]

There certainly are solutions worth a little money.

But would you buy all that stuff, now, in this person’s case, if you suspected that something better was around the corner, say, in the next two years? Because I’m hearing an awful lot of criticism of a $40 cable (based on an entirely different cable).

[orange808]

But would you buy all that stuff, now, in this person’s case, if you suspected that something better was around the corner, say, in the next two years? Because I’m hearing an awful lot of criticism of a $40 cable (based on an entirely different cable).

Well, I already did buy all that stuff. That's how I know it works.

The golden age of 480i deinterlacing is over. Why would I believe there's a new high quality 480i deinterlacing machine coming?

Furthermore, nothing recognizes 240p, anymore.

So, what's coming? I don't think that's going to happen. It could, but I seriously doubt it.

A machine that deinferlaces well, properly recognizes 240p, and offers seamless switching? I doubt it.

Both Anchor Bay and Silicon Optix have been spread to the wind and lost in time. Sony doesn't build video processors. Sony, DVDO, and HQV deinterlacing were the high point of 480i processing. Sony is all that remains and they aren't building video processors.

On top of requiring great deinterlacing, you also need 240p support and seamless signal switching of SD video on the same wire.

That's a whole lot of features that almost nobody needs in 2019.

So, yeah, I'd buy that stuff. There aren't many (any?) other options and a new unit would appeal to very few people.

---------------

@Fudoh: Is console > SOIA > iscan micro > display the only 1080p seamless transition 240p/480i solution? AFAIK, it is.

[Galgomite]

Orange808 I get it, and I own a ton of gear myself. But we’re in the golden age of 240p scaling, are we not? That’s not thanks to gear built for 1990s movie buffs. There’s no reason to think that the best 480i deinterlacing for gaming isn’t ahead of us. In the short term, an OSSC-type device that can utilize adaptive sync would solve every usability problem for 480i consoles by eliminating dropouts. That would be a good start.

[orange808]

What we really need is hacks of the roms in question. Kill the problem at the source and let the community download the fixes for free.

I still believe that's how these edge case roms will eventually be handled.