Gaming on 77" Oled

[Fudoh]

not impressive at all. Two 24" Dells at my PC and still the same trusty FALD Sony LCD for movies. Planned upgrades are a 49" 32:9 to replace the two 24" monitors and a 65" or 77" OLED for movies, but what kept my from upgrading so far is that while LG is obviously the choice right now, I'm *really* used to Sony's motionflow and the LGs are really bad in this department.

[strayan]

lol how did you get used to motionflow?!

[Fudoh]

Sony has a VERY subtle motionflow setting, which is combined with (and neccessary for) BFI and a strobing blacklight -- without causing any undesired video look. But it's fantastic at smoothing out 24fps content, e.g. for scrolling credits or pans across the screen.

[Classicgamer]

Yeah, having spent a good amount of time with my 77" LG Oled, their smooth motion settings are not great. With that said, I discovered a few things that helped significantly.

First, the biggest complaint you see with LGs processing is the stuttering phenomenon. Essentially, the image appears to freeze momentarily and then jump a few frames on certain content when their smooth motion settings are turned on. Like most people online, I would have assumed the problem was a floor in LGs processing which could not be turned off. But, it only appeared several weeks after I got it. If it was a built in problem, I would have seen it immediately.

So, I played around with all the settings that were apparently responsible and even with everything turned off, there was no change. I then tried 60hz video and 24fps film sources and no change. I tried different apps and again, no change. I tried unplugging my media player and turning it back on and bingo, I was back to perfect motion. And, a seemingly unfixable issue with noise on the Walking Dead also vanished like the snows of yesteryear. So, if issues are not helped or even effected by the TV's settings, there is a good chance that problems are in the source, not the TV.

The people who seemed most effected were those who used the built-in smart TV apps. I recommend investing in a semi decent media player for the best results with LG tvs. I use an Nvidia Shield. It's buggy and sometimes irritating but it handles 1080p and 4k streaming far better than a fire stick or built-in smart TV. I would have built a media pc with a latest gen gpu if I was doing it again.

With a decent streaming box, switching to user selectable motion settings actually gives you a good amount of control to get the right balance between image clarity and avoiding horrible "soap opera effects". I hate obvious interpolation but I was able to achieve pleasing results with both film and video sources. Even older 4:3 TV shows like Farscape look good. The image is natural-looking, smooth motion, no visible judder and free from blur.

Oh, and it's also important to update the firmware with LG tv's as soon as they arrive. Their software is very buggy (almost unfinished) and they seem to solve various issues with each update.

Personally, I think the LG oleds are a better choice overall than the Sony models but they are close enough on price that you should just get the one you like best (especially if it's not for gaming). They both sell a fantastic 77" movie screen.

[vol.2]

Any thoughts about improvements in blanking/rolling/refresh with mled? Does turning on individual led pixels equal an efficient way to control motion blur?

[Classicgamer]

Any thoughts about improvements in blanking/rolling/refresh with mled? Does turning on individual led pixels equal an efficient way to control motion blur?

Nobody outside of Samsung and Sony really knows for sure yet. If you read the account of Sony's mled movie night demo, it sounds like motion blur is as least as much of an issue with mled as it is for LCD and Oled. Even with specially made 48fps content and with interpolation on, the guy still reported seeing blur and jitter. But... It was just a prototype.

We have no real data on what is possible with Mled in terms on pixel response time. Being able to turn individual pixels full on and full off helps contrast but not blur and jitter. Oled can also turn pixels full on / full off but still suffers from motion blur (but not as bad as on LCD).

I am sure that for film and video content they will figure out how to manage any such issues with processing. The question for us is what happens for gaming where the options are currently more limited. Perhaps, it is far enough into the future that lag free motion smoothing and scaling will be a thing (as a built in feature) by then.

[Classicgamer]

not impressive at all. Two 24" Dells at my PC and still the same trusty FALD Sony LCD for movies. Planned upgrades are a 49" 32:9 to replace the two 24" monitors and a 65" or 77" OLED for movies, but what kept my from upgrading so far is that while LG is obviously the choice right now, I'm *really* used to Sony's motionflow and the LGs are really bad in this department.

Have you ever used one of the 32:9 monitors? I have been wondering what sort of image size and zoom controls they have to see if they might have a use for two-player time crisis 4 on the PS3.

Namco, in their infinite wisdom, chose to not include the link or online mode used in the arcade and previous home TC games. Playing with a friend involves a terrible tiny split screen mode. It's upsetting even on my 77" TV. If those 32:9 monitors have any sort of zoom options then perhaps it would be possible to get two full height 24" 4:3 images side by side.

[Fudoh]

But it's still ONE PS3 delivering the image, right ? The monitors won't have the neccessary picture controls to do that. They're all rather limited in that regard, even compared to TVs.

Also, the image on your 77" should still be bigger than on a 49" ultra-ultra-wide, don't you think ?

A neat setup would be to large screens and a video processor each to "take out" the relevant picture area for each player and display it on its own screen (masking away the other player's screen area). Could be fun and wouldn't really be this expensive. Should be manageable at the same total cost as one of those 49" monitors would cost on its own ......already taking a note in my mind to realize such a setup at one point in the future

[Classicgamer]

But it's still ONE PS3 delivering the image, right ? The monitors won't have the neccessary picture controls to do that. They're all rather limited in that regard, even compared to TVs.

Also, the image on your 77" should still be bigger than on a 49" ultra-ultra-wide, don't you think ?

A neat setup would be to large screens and a video processor each to "take out" the relevant picture area for each player and display it on its own screen (masking away the other player's screen area). Could be fun and wouldn't really be this expensive. Should be manageable at the same total cost as one of those 49" monitors would cost on its own ......already taking a note in my mind to realize such a setup at one point in the future

That's a shame that they don't have more controls to make those monitors useful. I know that 21:9 tv's have an extra zoom capability to make 2.35:1 movies fill the screen. I was hoping these monitors had at least that.

One of the problems with their split screen mode on TC games is that they preserve the aspect ratio so neither side makes use of the full screen height or width. Even on a large TV, you end up playing on a postage stamp screen.

Do you know of any processors that give you that much control over the screen size, shape and position? It would require a lot of digital stretching.

My other ideas were to try it on a PC with a PS3 emulator and then extend a 1280p desktop across two 480p crt monitors. Or, using a VGA splitter to put the screen on two projectors and making each side's play area fill a 50" 4:3 rear projection screen.

[Fudoh]

Do you know of any processors that give you that much control over the screen size, shape and position? It would require a lot of digital stretching.

Extron DSC 301 and anything else from the same line. You can zoom in to any screen portion you like and a 480p screen area is good enough to get really good results after upscaling.

[orange808]

Could also go with a picture in picture (PIP) video processor.

[Classicgamer]

Do you know of any processors that give you that much control over the screen size, shape and position? It would require a lot of digital stretching.

Extron DSC 301 and anything else from the same line. You can zoom in to any screen portion you like and a 480p screen area is good enough to get really good results after upscaling.

Would you need two of them to put it on two separate screens or do they have the capability to split a single image across two screens? Thinking out loud, two screens would be the most cost effective and arcade authentic option if it was possible. Especially as I already own two 480p capable crt monitors and I have never seen the 21:9 display I like best for less than $20,000 (LG's 105" 21:9 tv).

But, if anyone is looking for ideas for my birthday gift, I'll take one of these please:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNHoiopW1-g

It might be the only TV large enough to create an arcade-like two player experience on a single screen for the PS3 version of TC4.

TC4 is an odd duck in terms of scaling. If you set the PS3 to 480p, it looks and moves like the arcade maintaining 60fps and in 4:3. Even though the coin-op was based on PS2 hardware, it drops the frame rate a lot in 720p. Plus 720p outputs in 16:9. So, you'd want one 21:9 screen for two player 4:3 480p or one 32:9 for two player 720p 16:9.

[Classicgamer]

Could also go with a picture in picture (PIP) video processor.

Do they sell those separately for digital TV's? I only ever saw them on old CRT tv's for the purpose of showing two separate sources on one screen. Not for splitting one source across two and manipulating the image size.

How do these one work?

[orange808]

Could also go with a picture in picture (PIP) video processor.

Do they sell those separately for digital TV's? I only ever saw them on old CRT tv's for the purpose of showing two separate sources on one screen. Not for splitting one source across two and manipulating the image size.

How do these one work?

Lots of machines have it.

Let me look over my reasonably priced gear and see which one is good enough.

1080p or 720p input, select two areas of the input, and output two scaled windows inside a 1080p frame, right?

[Fudoh]

For a "one PS3 > two displays" setup you'd need two processors. But something like the Extron 301 is $100, so it's not too expensive. As said, you could probably build a 2x55" LCD setup for $1000 (2 displays + 2 processors).

If you already got two matching displays around, you just need the processors (plus two HDMI to VGA converters for $20 a piece).

[Classicgamer]

Could also go with a picture in picture (PIP) video processor.

Do they sell those separately for digital TV's? I only ever saw them on old CRT tv's for the purpose of showing two separate sources on one screen. Not for splitting one source across two and manipulating the image size.

How do these one work?

Lots of machines have it.

Let me look over my reasonably priced gear and see which one is good enough.

1080p or 720p input, select two areas of the input, and output two scaled windows inside a 1080p frame, right?

It would be taking one 480p 4:3 (or 720p 16:9 image) and putting half the image on one monitor and the other half on a second monitor. Then, zooming in on the image to make each one fill the screen.

Or

Taking that one 480p or 720p Image and zooming in on it on a single 21:9 or 32:9 monitor to make each player's screen area fill the vertical space - effectively giving you two decent size full screen 4:3 images.

The aim is to take this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeS_EF9mb-U

And make it look and feel more like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKAzKb3o4Fo

[Fudoh]

A pip processor would allow you to merge two sources on one screen - not what you're looking for.

If money isn't an issue, you'd take a video wall processor. That's a unit that takes one source signal and splits it into 2, 3 or 4 signals (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48297 ).

But splitting the signal first, using two seperate processors and then two screens gives you the same results and the Extrons are cheaper than a single video wall processor.

HDCP might be an issue with the PS3, but there're workarounds for that (e.g. using a 720p component output from your PS3, then adding a YUV to HDMI converter ($20) before splitting the HDMI signal and routing it to the processors).

[Classicgamer]

For a "one PS3 > two displays" setup you'd need two processors. But something like the Extron 301 is $100, so it's not too expensive. As said, you could probably build a 2x55" LCD setup for $1000 (2 displays + 2 processors).

If you already got two matching displays around, you just need the processors (plus two HDMI to VGA converters for $20 a piece).

I just checked ebay and they seem to be readily available at that price so, for me, it sounds like two Extron DSC 301s would be the cheapest and best option. I already have a pair of nice size 4:3 monitors and I have two HDMI to VGA converters in my draw. I would just need to buy a vga splitter and the two Extron devices.

It's certainly cheaper than buying a dual TC4 arcade cab.

I can't find any YouTube videos showing the DSC in action. Do you own one? It would be good to confirm it can zoom in to make one small square fill the screen. I'd feel a lot better if you've tested it's zoom capabilities first hand. Making a square covering 1/4 of the screen completely fill it is a lot of zooming / scaling.

I'm getting kinda excited about this project now. I have been wanting to replace that awful orange shell on my Guncon 3 with an arcade recoil gun for a while. I've been putting it off because of the two player limitations.

[orange808]

About video wall machines: The Datapath x4 was sold under multiple rebranded names and you might be able to pick one of those up cheap. That would do multiple screens. I bought a Datapathx4 clone for $89usd and sold my proper Datapathx4 for a hefty profit. Although, buyers may be getting more savvy now. The difference between the procesors is the name printed on the front. It's like four hundred bucks fell out of the sky..

About PIP: I am almost certain the C2-1T-750 could produce two scaled windows from the same source. That might work to get it all on one screen. I think I paid $75usd for that. Although, I see prices have since gone insane.

Of course, Fudoh's recommendation on the Extron DSC 301 HD is a pretty good solution, too.

[Classicgamer]

A pip processor would allow you to merge two sources on one screen - not what you're looking for.

If money isn't an issue, you'd take a video wall processor. That's a unit that takes one source signal and splits it into 2, 3 or 4 signals (e.g. viewtopic.php?f=6&t=48297 ).

But splitting the signal first, using two seperate processors and then two screens gives you the same results and the Extrons are cheaper than a single video wall processor.

HDCP might be an issue with the PS3, but there're workarounds for that (e.g. using a 720p component output from your PS3, then adding a YUV to HDMI converter ($20) before splitting the HDMI signal and routing it to the processors).

I have never had an HDCP issue with games on my PS3. I use my PS3 on my tri-sync CRT (in 480p) using an HDMI to VGA digital to analog converter for games like Capcom vs SNK 2. I have only seen HDCP issues with movies. Have you found issues with some games?

The main concern with TC4 on the PS3 is the drop in resolution and possibly framerate in split screen mode. I should probably do a little testing to see how it looks in 480p split screen to make sure it's passable. It won't look any nicer after scaling...

As a second choice, I have an Nvidia Quadro K5000 and a Quadro 6000 GPU. Splitting a PS3 emulator across two screens using Nvidia Mosaic should work without losing too much if the output res is limited to 480p. From memory, mosaic has some limited screen resizing options but probably not enough.

[vol.2]

ClassicGamer and Fudoh, what about the XHEAD-2 for PVP stuff? http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xhead-2.html

Could broadcast it in HD and zoom in your side of the screen? They cost a fortune tho.

[orange808]

If you're going to invest real money and send everything down one wire, Aurora's IPX-TC3-Pro is a better all around solution for gaming--despite some compression caveats.

[Classicgamer]

That would be a serious cost increase. The price range on ebay goes from $1800 up to $3500.

As a solution for two player Time Crisis 4, it stops being worth it once the price reaches what you could find a used duel TC4 arcade cab for.

Do you know anyone that bought one for gaming? It looks like a serious piece of kit.

[Guspaz]

Samsung just announced that they're investing $11 billion in QD-OLED production for televisions, so it looks like QD-OLED won out over microled for their next big TV push:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/14989/sa ... production

Who knows how the power consumption or burn-in will compare (blue is the least efficient and shortest lived OLED type), but their approach is expected to at least have the potential to dramatically reduce manufacturing costs due to both requiring only three quarters as many subpixels, and a little more than half as many panel layers. The problem is that all those cost savings could be eaten up by the additional manufacturing difficulties of their more sophisticated solution as compared to LG's WOLED.

[fernan1234]

Man, when will we get consumer true RGB OLED panels? WOLED sucks. Maybe this new Samsung approach will be better.

[Guspaz]

There isn't any inherent quality difference between WOLED and RGB OLED, though, just increased power draw, so why is it that big of a concern?

EDIT: To be clear, LG's WOLED televisions have four subpixels for every pixel, it's not the same as older displays that had a lower number of subpixels per pixel.

[Bahn Yuki]

https://youtu.be/sicOeppXvHQ

[thebeautifulones]

anything 3d from the PS3 gen or newer belongs on the largest HD flat screen you can find.

A lot of it looks best on a CRT PC monitor. I use big screens and projectors too, but they're often not where these games look best

[Fudoh]

@Bahn Yuki:

awesome. How low does the supported refresh rate range reach on the LG?
Already tried a game of 54Hz Raiden II or 55Hz R-Type in MAME?

[Xyga]

Can the C9 be forced to 4K@61Hz or 62Hz on Windows desktop and then run VRR normally?

(dunno if that's necessary on that TV but this is a workaround for 60Hz-capped VRR monitors, it allows to move up the upper vrr limit because VRR typically disables itself with sources closest to 60 like 59.6* up to 60.** In such cases what you actually see is either vsynced or tearing 60Hz, not VRR. Setting the desktop to 61Hz fixes this, only on displays that support it though)