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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Dec 10, 2019 8:05 am 


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XtraSmiley wrote:
I have two Knuckle Bash PCBs (Japanes and Korean) and a Snow Bros. 2 on the way from overseas. I'd be happy to test, but I'd need some info on what you're looking for exactly. As I posted before, I think my Outzone works with my HAS to an OSSC... but maybe I was crazy before.

That sounds great :)

Simply check if you can get a stable picture with the OSSC on default settings. If not, try increasing H.samplerate very liberally (1000+) and see if you can get an (intermittent) picture this way.
The latter would mean that the game has the Sync glitch responsible for the OSSC incompatibility. In addition, it would confirm the aforementioned thesis.

If you have an oscilloscope, you can ensure that it's indeed the problem discussed here by measuring the Csync signal. Look for the Vblank area and measure the period p1-5 as shown in this image: click

Results for Knuckle Bash and Snow Bros. 2 would be interesting, I don't think the difference between the Japanese and Korean version of Knuckle Bash should matter, but you can of course try both if you wish.

No need for examining Out Zone as that's Toaplan V1 hardware. These games all work with the OSSC as far as I have seen!


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:33 pm 


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thchardcore wrote:
There is a man designing a scaler called the A1. He apparently is making an arcade based line doubler focused on compatibility. I am curious to what extent he considered these boards.


Hi there, I'm making this. I struggled a lot with Batsugun, and when I saw this thread I gave up :) As you guys already know, the issue is that the vsync period is not a proper multiple of normal lines.

I use a different ADC than the OSSC (ad9984a), but the problem is the same. The PLL chugs along happily during coast with 64.00 periods, but of course when hsync is stable again, it's not not where it's supposed to be and and takes a little time for it to adjust to the new hsync position.

The retro scaler A1 is analog out, as that's what I need for my Naomi Universal 31k only cabinet, and has attenuation and stuff to eat arcade signals directly.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2019 7:53 pm 


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^ Hi, just read through the corresponding thread over at A-P and the thread here, impressive work :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:36 pm 


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invzim wrote:
I use a different ADC than the OSSC (ad9984a), but the problem is the same. The PLL chugs along happily during coast with 64.00 periods, but of course when hsync is stable again, it's not not where it's supposed to be and and takes a little time for it to adjust to the new hsync position.

The retro scaler A1 is analog out, as that's what I need for my Naomi Universal 31k only cabinet, and has attenuation and stuff to eat arcade signals directly.
That's great news! Is the generated double-rate hsync stable enough for various monitors (CRTs should be at least fairly tolerant)?

XtraSmiley wrote:
I have two Knuckle Bash PCBs (Japanes and Korean) and a Snow Bros. 2 on the way from overseas. I'd be happy to test, but I'd need some info on what you're looking for exactly. As I posted before, I think my Outzone works with my HAS to an OSSC... but maybe I was crazy before.
Any updates on Knuckle Bash? I managed to find a place selling that PCB for a fair price, but would prefer to know whether it's in the group of wacky sync Toaplan V2 PCBs before buying.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:51 pm 


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marqs wrote:
That's great news! Is the generated double-rate hsync stable enough for various monitors (CRTs should be at least fairly tolerant)?


Thanks :) Double h-sync seem to work fine, no LCD issues reported in that respect yet - the issue with LCD's is mostly missing vertical lines on games with low refresh/high line count. For CRT's it's all good.

https://irkenlabs.com/retro-scaler-a1/tested-sources


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 8:20 pm 



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I tested last night with CPS3. Works without issues.

One thing, is there anyway to adjust the brightness slightly? It seems the auto adjustment is on the low side as it doesn't account for scanlines. Without scanlines it would be the perfect brightness level.
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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 1:52 am 



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marqs wrote:
invzim wrote:
I use a different ADC than the OSSC (ad9984a), but the problem is the same. The PLL chugs along happily during coast with 64.00 periods, but of course when hsync is stable again, it's not not where it's supposed to be and and takes a little time for it to adjust to the new hsync position.

The retro scaler A1 is analog out, as that's what I need for my Naomi Universal 31k only cabinet, and has attenuation and stuff to eat arcade signals directly.
That's great news! Is the generated double-rate hsync stable enough for various monitors (CRTs should be at least fairly tolerant)?

XtraSmiley wrote:
I have two Knuckle Bash PCBs (Japanes and Korean) and a Snow Bros. 2 on the way from overseas. I'd be happy to test, but I'd need some info on what you're looking for exactly. As I posted before, I think my Outzone works with my HAS to an OSSC... but maybe I was crazy before.
Any updates on Knuckle Bash? I managed to find a place selling that PCB for a fair price, but would prefer to know whether it's in the group of wacky sync Toaplan V2 PCBs before buying.


Sorry for the delay, it took me awhile to find my two PCBs, I'll look extra hard this weekend when I return home from my trip. Give me 2 days!


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:11 pm 



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OK, so I found the Japanese Knuckle Bash PCB (still looking for Korean one).

When plugged in I get the red and green LEDs on the OSSC with nothing displayed on the TV.

I'm using a HAS supergun which works fine via SCART to RetroTINK RGB2COMP box to component into a NTSC TV.

To the OSSC via the same SCART cable however, on a fresh .85a FW I get this on the screen:

AV1: RGBS 263p
15.61kHz 59.41Hz

And I tried raising the H.samplerate to 1000, 1100, and 1200 with no affect (although please explain which H.samperate I should be adjusting).

Sorry, I do not have a scope, but am happy to try any settings you like with what I have.

EDIT 1: I should add that I forgot the FW update wipes my old settings, so when I put it on 3x mode generic, the OSSC green light stays on and the red light does go off, but still nothing on my TV (to include not seeing the OSSC OSD or sound).

I also popped in a Strikers 1945 PCB which works fine on the same settings.

EDIT 2: Hmm, since I'm not an expert in the OSSC, what "Adv. timing" setting should I be under when I move the H.samplerate to 1k, 1.1k, 1.2k, etc? I'm using Line 3x mode, set in Generic 4:3?

EDIT 3: By the way, I'm not crazy, my Outzone works great. Did the settings reset on the OSSC, then tried OZ. Works fine on start up, 2x, 3x, and 5x generic modes. Only issue is screen is cut off a bit on the bottom of my TV (right of the game, as in player 2's side). Had to set it to 3x mode with v.backporch to 29 to get both sides (top and bottom of TV; left and right game screen) to fit.

***Since this isn't the hardware everyone in this thread is taking about though, I guess I need to find my Fixeight and Truxton 2 now to test, but I'm sure I'll have same results as the experts here. My Snow Brothers 2 won't arrive for about 60 days however.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:48 am 


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Thanks for your tests, and - mea culpa! My OSSC was in Line 3x/320x240 optim mode the whole time, because like you I was not able to get any image at all using Generic 4:3. Successfully managed to mask that.
All the results I posted here have this as as baseline, everything else default, then changes from that as I posted them.

So Line 3x/320x240 optim it is. Dial it in, then go to "Adv. timing - 320x240" and set an H.samplerate of or around 1250 for example. Using that, you may be able to get something, like an intermittent image, provided your TV is not too picky and cooperates.
However, with the OSSC-compatible Toaplan V2 games, you typically already get a nice (at least stable and otherwise free of major errors) picture on all-defaults/Generic 4:3. That was always my experience.
Since this was not the case for your Knuckle Bash, I think this is already a big sign that it is incompatible.

However to be sure it definitely wouldn't hurt if you tried 320x240 optim also. With H.samplerate at or around 1250, if you only see about the right half of the image, the conspicuous wave pattern near the upper border that can be seen in some examples posted in this thread, and extreme pixel flicker/dithering, then I think we can be pretty sure that Knuckle Bash has the Csync fault even without an Oscilloscope measurement. If you manage to coax an image out of the OSSC and TV, a photo or short video would be welcome if possible.

So you're saying that the Knuckle Bash image is completely fine on your TV through the RetroTINK RGB2COMP? Do you use the OSSC on the same TV?

And I'm curious as to how Snow Bros. 2 will fare, tell us when it arrived :D


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 6:04 pm 



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Both the following PCBs work with a HAS to RetroTINK SCART2COMP to a CRT TV (no OSSC in the chain).

Here are the results with HAS to OSSC to Sharp LCD TV. OSSC FW .85a reset settings.

Japanese Knuckle Bash:

Default: Red and Green LED on, screen black.
Line3x 320x240 default: Red and Green LED on, screen black.
Line3x 320x240 with H. samplerate set to 1250.00: Green LED on, screen black.
Line3x 320x240 with H. samplerate set to 1400.00: Green LED on, screen black.

OSSC LCD Screen:
AV1: RGBS 263p
15.60kHz 59.34Hz

--------------------------------------

Korean Knuckle Bash:

Default: Red and Green LED on, screen black.
Line3x 320x240 default: Red and Green LED on, screen black.
Line3x 320x240 with H. samplerate set to 1250.00: Green LED on, screen black.
Line3x 320x240 with H. samplerate set to 1400.00: Green LED on, screen black.

OSSC LCD Screen:
AV1: RGBS 263p
15.61kHz 59.37Hz


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:10 pm 


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That looks like your LCD TV is too choosy (granted, the signal should be quite off-spec).
Starting with the default 431.0 and going up, from which H.samplerate onward does the red LED turn off? On my setup, with V-V, it turns off at 501.00. Using H.s.rate adj, it turns off at 500.15 exactly.
As one last measure, could you try on another display instead, preferably a PC monitor, by any chance?


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:51 pm 



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6t8k wrote:
That looks like your LCD TV is too choosy (granted, the signal should be quite off-spec).
Starting with the default 431.0 and going up, from which H.samplerate onward does the red LED turn off? On my setup, with V-V, it turns off at 501.00. Using H.s.rate adj, it turns off at 500.15 exactly.
As one last measure, could you try on another display instead, preferably a PC monitor, by any chance?


Yes, my TV is VERY picky! :(

I'll try a computer LCD and another older LCD when I'm able to dig them out, but it might be a long time. I hope at least for now Marqs has enough information to determine if he needs to buy a Knuckle Bash. I'd be happy to mail him one for testing, but I'm not sure shipping is worth it from the US.

Off of memory, I feel like around 600 is when the red light went off, but oddly it was on again around 700-900, then off again. This is memory only, but like I remember because I thought it was odd that the red light would go off at 600, but then back on again.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:17 pm 


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It never hurts having more information available before making a judgement, but of course one has to weigh that against the effort involved obtaining it.
That said, thanks to your observations so far, I'm pretty sure at this point that Knuckle Bash has the same Sync problem as discussed here.
This goes well with the fact that it writes the same values to the 0Eh scroll register of the GP9001 as other Toaplan V2 PCBs that have the Sync quirk.

Right, the red LED turns on again between the 715-730 area for me. Then it turns off again at around 1050, but one has to wait about 5s until this happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:31 am 


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For the incompatible games, the aforementioned "video controller init" (?) values that are written to the GP9001 0Eh scroll register, can be found in the program ROMs:



However for the games that are compatible and listed here (Truxton 2, Teki Paki, Pipi & Bibis), the ROMs don't contain the corresponding values.

Hex string for incompatible games: 0202 0302 0042
Hex string for compatible games: 0300 0200 0040

Ghox and Shippu Mahou Daisakusen both contain neither, my guess is that both would be compatible.
As mentioned earlier, through deduction based on the MAME src, Teki Paki is expected to be compatible, while Snow Bros. 2 is expected to be incompatible. The expectation that Knuckle Bash is incompatible was confirmed.

So what would happen if someone were to replace, say (0202 0302 0042) in vfive with (0300 0200 0040), burn it onto an EPROM and see what happens? It runs fine in MAME at least (it looks like this aspect is not emulated anyway).
Would be interesting to see if the game boots at all without errors. I'd be willing to try that, but first I have to see if I have the correct EPROM type lying around. Good thing Toaplan always socketed the program ROM ex-factory.


Last edited by 6t8k on Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:19 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 7:34 am 



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This is super interesting. If I had access to a programmer, I would be trying this now.
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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 12:09 pm 


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I had no spare 27C4002, but pertinent goods are on their way.

thchardcore: get one! They're really not hard things to operate, and can come in handy in many situations even beyond arcade games. I procrastinated long enough myself before I got one...


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:26 pm 



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6t8k, awesome efforts, thank you!

I have found my Fixeight. Any value in testing it? I believe we know it has the issue already, but if you like I can test it as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:33 pm 


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Well it's simple, if we have the luck of somebody asking to test, I'm not gonna say don't am I ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:21 pm 



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6t8k wrote:
Well it's simple, if we have the luck of somebody asking to test, I'm not gonna say don't am I ;)


OK, I assume I should do it just like the KB? Same settings?


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:36 pm 


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Yep!


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:17 am 



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6t8k wrote:
I had no spare 27C4002, but pertinent goods are on their way.

thchardcore: get one! They're really not hard things to operate, and can come in handy in many situations even beyond arcade games. I procrastinated long enough myself before I got one...


Thank you for the motivation push. About time I got one with this hobby and nearly 50 boards. Also, thank you for all your time and effort looking into this, I certainly appreciate it and was afraid these games would end up unplayable in the modern world on real hardware.
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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:52 pm 


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Honestly... I wouldn't have thought. Would you look at that! Image Image Image

ImageImage

Video capture

Line x 3 / 320x240 optim, H.samplerate=432.
Otherwise, nothing was changed from default settings.
The footage wasn't recorded with optimal OSSC settings. Most notably, sampling phase was not properly adjusted, so the image could be sharper even.

LCD display:
AV1: RGBS 263p
15.61kHz 59.37Hz

Source info:
Prof.1 320x240
263p 454455

Measurements of sync signal:

Spoiler: show
Channel 1: Jamma Csync out, Channel 2: U36 pin 18 (Hsync as output by GP9001)
Image

Jamma Csync out, Vsync falling edge
Image

Jamma Csync out, next falling edge
Image

1.983994ms - 1.663996ms = 320μs (p1-5) !


I've played the game for a short while, everything works and looks as it should. Could not discover any problem.
It's so weird though... it must obviously make some other difference as well, otherwise Toaplan wouldn't have changed these GP9001 "initialization vectors"?
I may try this with Dogyuun too.

thchardcore: Thanks in return for your (and Smiley's) words of encouragement! Always happy to hear there are others besides me who care for this stuff :)


Last edited by 6t8k on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:59 pm 


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6t8k wrote:
Honestly... I wouldn't have thought. Would you look at that!


Very nice work, can you please share the exact patch details of what you did ? I.e. which EPROM, offset, old value, new value ?
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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:00 pm 


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^ Yes, I plan to release IPS patches. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:00 pm 



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Incredible work!


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:06 pm 


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6t8k wrote:
^ Yes, I plan to release IPS patches. :)


Most brilliant!
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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:12 pm 


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Basically, to reproduce this, search the values in the program ROM and replace them as described in this post.
Other than Fixeight, there is only one occurence in each OSSC-incompatible game.

Then burn the file onto an ST M27C4002 and swap it with the original program ROM on the PCB.


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:29 pm 


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6t8k wrote:
Basically, to reproduce this, search the values in the program ROM and replace them as described in this post.
Other than Fixeight, there is only one occurence in each OSSC-incompatible game.

Then burn the file onto an ST M27C4002 and swap it with the original program ROM on the PCB.


Thanks :D

Now as you mentioned, what do these values actually do ?

Do they affect game timing, vertical retrace, interrupt latency ?

If someone has a nice NANAO monitor and the superslow camera option on their phone maybe some videos will show the issue ?
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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:01 pm 


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Yeah, that is the question. The only thing I know about it is from that spot in the MAME source linked above, where these values are mentioned to configure the GP9001 in some way.
It's certainly possible that it would've been enough to change only one specific byte within that "configuration string" to achieve this.
What's more, right now the possibility cannot be excluded that this change might have unintended side-effects that are not yet foreseen. But we don't know how that configuration aspect works.

The GP9001 is the proprietary video controller chip used by the Toaplan V2 hardware and to my knowledge its inner workings are mostly undocumented (with MAME imitating it).
At least for Knuckle Bash, there are schematics that document the pins and contacts to other components.

I'm sure there are many people who know more about that than me, however!


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 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 10, 2020 2:48 pm 



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I can only speculate, but the different configurations might be there to allow interfacing to different hardware.
Some configuration might simplify a circuit or it might make it more compatible with certain monitors.
I don't think there's going to be any difference in gameplay, as the anomaly is tied to VSync and happens in VBlank.


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