shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Sat Dec 07, 2019 11:03 am View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:06 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
I bought a Dogyuun PCB that is giving me audio but no video. I'm using a HAS supergun and OSSC with dozens of other PCBs and they all work fine. Is there anything peculiar about Dogyuun that could require changing settings on the OSSC?

EDIT: Suspicions confirmed! It works on my Framemeister but not on my OSSC. This is really strange because the OSSC works with every one of my other PCBs. Any idea what OSSC settings to try changing?


Last edited by shmupsrocks on Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun -- audio but no video
PostPosted: Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:17 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
Changing h.samplerate to within about 1050-1200 in OSSC brings up the video but it's cut off on the bottom and right sides and distorted on the left side. Interestingly, this is the same behavior I get from F3 PCBs except in order to get those to work I have to also change H-PLL pre-coast and H-PLL post-coast to within 2-4 and h.samplerate to exactly 1190.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun -- audio but no video
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 5:49 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
I switched from SCART to HD15 into the OSSC to get F3 working reliably but unfortunately that doesn't get Dogyuun working reliably. So Dogyuun works into the Framemeister but not into the OSSC. Any ideas?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun -- audio but no video
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:33 pm 



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Communism's New Home (CA, USA)
I would like an answer as well. I tried the Extron 301 HD, but still no cigar.
_________________
I enjoy jamma games more than anything on console.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun -- audio but no video
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2019 8:55 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
You're trying to get Dogyuun working on the OSSC too? Misery loves company. :)


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun -- audio but no video
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:32 am 



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Communism's New Home (CA, USA)
shmupsrocks wrote:
You're trying to get Dogyuun working on the OSSC too? Misery loves company. :)


Batsugun. Fixeight and V-V. Same hardware and wonky sink signal.
_________________
I enjoy jamma games more than anything on console.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 1:43 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
Anybody using one of these with an OSSC?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:13 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1378
Well, this is why people recap an XRGB-1 and keep it hooked up.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 3:17 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
Is the lag as bad as the XRGB-mini?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:53 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7052
Location: block
orange808 wrote:
Well, this is why people recap an XRGB-1 and keep it hooked up.

Not even that actually.
I am watching that fun saga with a bucket of popcorn, waiting to see how many more times and more threads thchardcore will ask the same question, and how many devices that can't solve his problem he will buy.
And also how much longer the joke with the OSSC will last before marqs & co update the wiki with a statement about those boards.
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:57 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
Ah ok so it's a known issue and it doesn't sound like marqs can fix it for the OSSC. Any similar boards that will also never work on the OSSC?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 6:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 08 Jan 2016
Posts: 556
Location: San Jose, CA
Can we try to characterize the problem? is it a matter of H or V sync rate compatibility, or the sync signal itself, or what?

I have a Dogyuun board, so when I get home I can maybe try seeing what's up with it and the OSSC. If it can be resolved at all, I'm sure it can be done without a lot of signal processing shit in a big conga line.
_________________
Making Gimmick! exAct * Mix
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 7:58 pm 



Joined: 13 Aug 2018
Posts: 290
Please let us know!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:21 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7052
Location: block
I'll let you guys see a sample of my own Doggy on various processors besides the OSSC, and displays, so you can see what doesn't work, and what does.

PS: yeah it was the same for several of those Toaplan boards even though I've owned only Dogyuun and Truxton II that did give me that shit, it's not unique to those boards of course, tho generally you expect that from games way-off 60Hz. Not here, they're surprise quirky bitches.
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:33 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 04 Aug 2007
Posts: 494
Location: Europe
Xyga wrote:
PS: yeah it was the same for several of those Toaplan boards even though I've owned only Dogyuun and Truxton II that did give me that shit, it's not unique to those boards of course, tho generally you expect that from games way-off 60Hz. Not here, they're surprise quirky bitches.


Truxton II must be different, since it does work with the OSSC - https://live.staticflickr.com/4812/4513 ... 6a87_k.jpg
_________________
Image


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:00 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 983
are yall sure it's the OSSC itself that's "incompatible" and not just simply the display connected to it? OSSC compatibility is usually 100% display dependent


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 9:37 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7052
Location: block
@RGB: Now you make me wonder, I've sold it so long ago that I could have erroneously reunited both games as sharing that issue in my memory.
Anyway, I have to rewire all that stuff tomorrow.
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:08 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1378
@Xyga
AFAIK, the XRGB-1 can sync up, line double, and output an image with these boards over RGBHV. (I'm not suggesting putting the OSSC in the chain.) Am I misinformed? If so, I apologise for suggesting a bad solution.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 12:58 am 


User avatar

Joined: 14 Aug 2019
Posts: 114
Location: BW, Germany
I gave the sync signal of Dogyuun a quick run through the scope - I have a gscartsw v5.2 which has a sync-regeneration feature (DIP1 active), which I thought could maybe make it compatible with the OSSC. It doesn't...
Here are some screenshots:

Spoiler: show
One HSync pulse, direct connection (without sync regeneration):

Image

One HSync pulse, through the gscartsw (with sync regeneration):

Image

Multiple HSync pulses, direct connection (without sync regeneration):

Image

Multiple HSync pulses, through the gscartsw (with sync regeneration):

Image

(Method used)


I have to state right away that I don't consider myself qualified to give a reliable statement about the cause of the OSSC incompatibility, since I'm still learning much about analog A/V.
However, you can clearly see some relatively nasty distortions between the HSync pulses. What I've observed is that these get stronger with higher signal levels of the three color lines, and they don't get eliminated by the gscartsw's regen feature.
In the intro there's the white "presented by toaplan" screen, and the effect is much more pronounced while it's on screen. I haven't observed this with Tatsujin, which works fine with the OSSC, at first glance I'd say it looks like a design flaw of the hardware.

Whether this is the reason for the incompatibility, I'm not sure, but it stands out the most to me. I'm sure somebody more versed can comment on this though.

T̶h̶e̶ ̶V̶b̶l̶a̶n̶k̶ ̶a̶r̶e̶a̶ ̶l̶o̶o̶k̶s̶ ̶O̶K̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶,̶ ̶b̶a̶r̶r̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶s̶l̶i̶g̶h̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶k̶i̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶ ̶c̶a̶n̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶i̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶f̶i̶r̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶e̶e̶n̶s̶h̶o̶t̶.̶ Might post a screenshot of it later.

e: Screenshots of the Vblank area:
Spoiler: show
Image
Image

Spike shortly after the falling edge within the Vblank area:
Image
Image

Interval between V pulses:
Image
Image


There's actually a large spike at about 5μs after the falling edge of every Vsync pulse. Now that could definitely cause problems as well. :?

Interval between VSync pulses is measured as ~16.88ms (there's some imprecision involved since I dialed it in manually with the cursors), which amounts to a refresh rate of ~59.242 Hz, which is not too odd I guess. Tatsujin has something around 57Hz, if I remember correctly.
MAME however ses Dogyuun at ~59.64Hz, for that I'd have to measure a ~16.77ms interval which seems beyond the slight inaccuacy described above. I don't know where that discrepancy comes from.

maxtherabbit wrote:
are yall sure it's the OSSC itself that's "incompatible" and not just simply the display connected to it? OSSC compatibility is usually 100% display dependent

The red LED lights up on my OSSC, signalling that sync is unstable.


Last edited by 6t8k on Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:19 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 983
6t8k wrote:

maxtherabbit wrote:
are yall sure it's the OSSC itself that's "incompatible" and not just simply the display connected to it? OSSC compatibility is usually 100% display dependent

The red LED lights up on my OSSC, signalling that sync is unstable.

Roger that


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 5:16 am 



Joined: 22 Jun 2005
Posts: 200
Location: Communism's New Home (CA, USA)
Xyga wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Well, this is why people recap an XRGB-1 and keep it hooked up.

Not even that actually.
I am watching that fun saga with a bucket of popcorn, waiting to see how many more times and more threads thchardcore will ask the same question, and how many devices that can't solve his problem he will buy.
And also how much longer the joke with the OSSC will last before marqs & co update the wiki with a statement about those boards.


I'm sorry if I missed something, but I was under the impression this could be made to work by altering the vertical sync output (like with the DSC 301 HD). Someone here in another thread (yes, I asked too many times) commented that they got Fixeight working with their OSSC, which indicates it may be possible but they never provided the profile settings. Please try and keep in mind that I do not have the technical knowledge or background you might possess, I am just hopeful for some sort of solution. Are you aware of any solution or am I chasing a ghost?

orange808 wrote:
@Xyga
AFAIK, the XRGB-1 can sync up, line double, and output an image with these boards over RGBHV. (I'm not suggesting putting the OSSC in the chain.) Am I misinformed? If so, I apologise for suggesting a bad solution.


The XRGB-1 (and even the DISPL) can't, not even with a sync stabilizer (see thread on arcade projects) or adjustment of the internal potentiometers that actually helped fix some trembling on the bottom of the screen with M72 and the Saturn.

mikejmoffitt wrote:
Can we try to characterize the problem? is it a matter of H or V sync rate compatibility, or the sync signal itself, or what?

I have a Dogyuun board, so when I get home I can maybe try seeing what's up with it and the OSSC. If it can be resolved at all, I'm sure it can be done without a lot of signal processing shit in a big conga line.


The issue is flagging across the top of the screen (or left in TATE) similar to what people with IGS boards experience on certain PVMs or Ikegami monitors. I believe this is related to the vertical sync rate. I would be willing to donate to your effort if you are interested in approaching a solution.
_________________
I enjoy jamma games more than anything on console.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 6:27 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7052
Location: block
Yes I bloody damn gave you info and leads coming from my experience with the Dogyuun pcb and doublers/scalers, several times, and you fucking ignored my posts in a very unpolite manner, every time, I hate people who do that, what's your fucking problem?
So do you homework and browse your own fucking history if you wanna know what you 'missed'. I'm not repeating once more for you, 'ASKHOLE'.
I'll post stuff for the others today, it's unfortunate that you might benefit from it.
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:21 am 


User avatar

Joined: 19 Jan 2016
Posts: 304
Location: Sweden
6t8k wrote:

The Vblank area looks OK to me, barring the slight shakiness you can see in the first screenshot. Might post a screenshot of it later.


Image of Vblank area is likely vital for diagnosis, so please do post it. Unfortunately I don't have knowledge to help with that, but Marqs and others can.
_________________
OSSC TV Compatibility report thread


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 8:51 am 



Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 16
I own several Toaplan boards and my OSSC doesn’t like any of them. It’s one of the few reasons I still keep my Framemeister around.

I’m hoping that the Retro Scaler from Irken Labs will be able to help with it when it releases. As I understand it, the Retro Scaler is supposed to finesse unusual signals before passing them on to the VGA input on the OSSC to bring the signals into spec. Should hopefully help with Irem M72 boards cropping off the top and bottom display with the OSSC as well.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 9:38 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11938
Location: Germany
While I don't own any of the PCBs in question, I really would love to see all these working in the OSSC.

Maybe we could manage a little fundraiser to get marqs one of the PCBs in question ?

In regard to M72 boards: I suppose the reason here is that the OSSC tries to output a 480p signal instead of a 512p one. Sounds manageable and probably just hasn't been done, because no regular HDMI device would accept that resolution on its HDMI input.


Top
 Online Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:02 am 



Joined: 20 Apr 2018
Posts: 46
I got a Fixeight (I think, from what I remember) and an Outzone and Tatsujin working with my HAS v4 and OSSC.

On the HAS buffered CSync and 75 Ohm and AV1 via SCART on the OSSC.

My OSSC settings were not for playing, I was just moving stuff around to ensure the games worked as I had just bought them. If you guys want I can dig them out and post my settings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 11:28 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7052
Location: block
Alright since it's been so long I had forgotten that indeed the XRGB-2 can't perfectly solve the issue, it just puts a bandaid and even Super Mode doesn't help completely fix the distortion.

The VP50 Pro however is perfect, whether in 1080p or 480p+SLG.
60hz locked 6ms lag.

Pictures coming in a moment.


PS: I have several other doublers and processors around, but I know in advance neither doubler solves the flagging/skewing issue not even close to the XRGB-2, and the scalers besides the DVDO's all produce input lag.

I'll check VP30+ABT102, Comm-Tec UP 1280, though IIRC the VP30 will look ugly, and the Up1280 will require its TBC which generates lag. Vigatec Dune lacks switchable TBC iirc.
I think I've tried with a GBS8220 or Hd Box Pro back in the days, but the flagging was there too (both units are dead sorry can't try them)
I see no point in trying the XRGB-3 but I'll have another look at the DISPL.


XRGB-2
without AFC
Image
with AFC
Image

VP50 Pro
1080p (HDMI)
Image
VGA (BNC RGBHV + SLG3000)
Image
Image
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:16 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 983
I'm kinda out of my lane since I don't have any of these PCBs or know what their output is like - but would it maybe be a better course to mod the boards so their sync output isn't so fucked up in the first place?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:56 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 7052
Location: block
Modding the boards would decrease their value, no the problem is there just never was a lagless doubler or scaler designed specifically with knowledge of arcade boards quirks in mind.
Not even from Micomsoft, or not really future-proof, the XRGB-2 was the closest thing since it forces 480 lines and has this powerful (yet insufficient in cases) AFC feature, but that's it.

(I'm a bit surprised tho I seemed to remember it doing better with Dogyuun, strange, will investigate further...)

Otherwise of my knowledge there's only the VP50 Pro, lag at 6 ms, but I don't think anyone tried nearly enough boards on it to confirm everything's fine.
Irem and Seibu 53~55Hz ones would be good candidates but there's games even close to 60Hz that have oddities in their signal.

Moar VP50pro RGBHV VGA+SLG on VX3211-mh (sharpening) tate, shit smartphone quality:
(other doublers/scalers pic tomorrow maybe)
http://postimg.cc/hh7hFpcS
http://postimg.cc/1V4jTfLt
http://postimg.cc/NyfSTJpm
_________________
Strikers1945guy wrote:
"Do we....eat chicken balls?!"


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Dogyuun, Batsugun, Fixeight, V-V incompatible with OSSC
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2019 4:22 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Mar 2018
Posts: 983
6t8k wrote:
However, you can clearly see some relatively nasty distortions between the HSync pulses. What I've observed is that these get stronger with higher signal levels of the three color lines


that doesn't sound like a "quirk" to me, it sounds like a design deficiency that should be addressed


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 117 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], SamIAm and 9 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group