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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:04 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 870
nmalinoski wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
The only output formats that the PS2 supports (without hard/soft modification) for all output resolutions are YPbPr and RGsB. While sync-on-green is not a problem for many setups, not everybody has displays or scalers or switches that support it.

My understanding is that the only output format that supports all resolutions on the PS2 is YPbPr; where RGB is concerned, it uses RGBS (sync on composite or sync on luma, depending on cable wiring) for 15kHz and then RGsB for all others.


I use my PS2 for both 15khz and 31khz with the same RGB cable. It still works when I unplug it from my Extron RGB interface and connect it directly to my tri-sync arcade monitor which, as far as I know, only accepts RGBS and RGBHV.

The narrative passed around is that the PS2 switches from sync on composite video to sync on green when it switches to 31khz, not that RGsB works for all resolutions. I'm not sure if it is accurate but either way, it would be easily solved with the Ultimarc PS2 RGB cable or a $15 Extron RGB interface.

I think it is possible that somebody just got confused with how you take sync from the green cable when you change the color space to Ypbpr. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody spread inaccurate info that got regurgitated. It would be odd for Sony to choose to switch it RGsB as so few monitors accept it, and RGBHV is accepted by every CRT vga monitor. Not impossible though.

I can test it with an official scart cable if anyone is interested. My monitor accepts 31khz via RGBs but I should lose sync if it actually switches to RGsB in 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 6:42 pm 



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Posts: 870
DirkSwizzler wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
I switched every single console to component running into an 8:2 gcompsw, with one output going to a PVM and one output going to an OSSC. If I need more inputs, I can chain in my 4:1 gcompsw, or buy another 8:2. If you think a SCART connector is needlessly oversized, a Crosspoint is a pretty absurdly wastefully large in comparison, with no obvious benefits or advantages if you don't need matrix switching (and who really does, I can only play one game at a time), plus finicky sync requirements, and silly custom audio connectors ;)


Yeah. I've got 17 (22 if you count RF which I don't leave hooked up all the time) analog consoles, and 6 hdmi ones.
All the analog ones use SCART unless RGB isn't well supported.
Wii, Xbox, and PSP are component. All hooked up to a gcompsw. Which feeds into a modded garo to become RGBS
My 3DO is still S-Video. Connected to a gcompsw along with my RF to composite transcoder. These go through a composite/s-video to RGBS transcoder.

All that RGBS stuff goes into 3 gscartsw's that clean up sync a bit when necessary so I've got csync across the board.

All that goes to my 1 PVM and OSSC. From OSSC it's combined with the 6 hdmi consoles to flatscreen tv and computer monitor.

The end result? I pick a thing to play and turn it on. It's now on every screen that supports it's output. Easy enough that I can explain it's operation to my kids.

And in that entire setup there's no electrical tape or zip ties keeping scart connectors together. The only time they come loose is when I'm rewiring things nearby. Which also happens for my RCA connectors.

What exactly am I missing out on by not having a giant crosspoint? I will grant you that a crosspoint is cheaper for now. But it's definitely a giant headache for my use case and there will definitely come an inflection point where crosspoints are more expensive than my setup.


I've never had to use tape to hold together a scart plug either. It's obviously a very serious case of user error and tight-fistedness. All my scart plugs have a plastic outer shell which can only be separated if you unscrew the cable vein. Not the kind of thing you'd do by accident. And you can buy a new one for less than $10....

I have broken a few vga and DVI cables in my time and I once pulled the wire out of a BNC plug but that was my carelessness. I've being using scart plugs since 1989 and I never had one break.

Obviously, you can break any plug if you do dumb things like pulling them out by the cable but you can't blame the engineering design. It's the consumer RGB plug of choice for all of Europe and Japan. Anyone who can't use one without making it fall to pieces should at least consider that maybe they are doing something wrong....


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 7:03 pm 



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Classicgamer wrote:
I use my PS2 for both 15khz and 31khz with the same RGB cable. It still works when I unplug it from my Extron RGB interface and connect it directly to my tri-sync arcade monitor which, as far as I know, only accepts RGBS and RGBHV.

Which specific cable are you using, and has your console had a SoG-disable mod performed on it?

Classicgamer wrote:
The narrative passed around is that the PS2 switches from sync on composite video to sync on green when it switches to 31khz, not that RGsB works for all resolutions. I'm not sure if it is accurate but either way, it would be easily solved with the Ultimarc PS2 RGB cable or a $15 Extron RGB interface.

If your monitor doesn't support RGsB at all, I would think you'd need both the Ultimarc cable and an RGB interface; you would need the RGB interface to rewrite 31kHz+ RGsB to RGBS, and then you would need the Ultimarc cable to strip sync from composite (or luma; not sure which that cable uses) in order to get the RGB interface to accept the 15kHz RGBS (because it will completely ignore composite video and luma as sync signals).

Classicgamer wrote:
I think it is possible that somebody just got confused with how you take sync from the green cable when you change the color space to Ypbpr. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody spread inaccurate info that got regurgitated.

I have first-hand experience with the RGBS<->RGsB switching behavior from time with the PS2 Linux kit. The official VGA dongle only has R, G, and B connected on the DE-15 connector (no separate wire for sync, no sync stripper). With the component video mode set to RGB, I get no signal while booting the console (with audio connected, I can hear the boot sequence), and then I get a 480p image once the boot disc loads (defaults to VGA 640x480).

Now, if the PS2 was outputting something weird, like RGsBS, which would allow for 15kHz RGsB, it's possible the monitor I was using at the time simply didn't accept 15kHz RGB and/or interlaced frames; but you could easily determine what the PS2 is outputting by connecting it to an OSSC with a regular sync-on-composite or sync-on-luma RGB SCART cable and making sure that automatic input switching is disabled. When you boot the console, you should get sync with the input set to AV1-RGBS and no sync with the input set to AV1-RGsB; and, when you enable 480p in a compatible game, you should lose sync with the input set to AV1-RGBS and regain sync when you switch to AV1-RGsB.

You could also partially test this behavior by using a component cable and an OSSC. When you start the console with component mode set to RGB, you should get no image with the OSSC's input set to AV2-RGsB (nor AV2-YPbPr, for that matter) until you either boot the PS2 Linux boot disc or blindly enable 480p in a compatible game.

Classicgamer wrote:
It would be odd for Sony to choose to switch it RGsB as so few monitors accept it, and RGBHV is accepted by every CRT vga monitor. Not impossible though.

I don't think there was any kind of explanation direct from anyone, but no manufacturer of a console capable of 31kHz+ modes allowed anything higher than 15kHz modes via SCART--the PS2, PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, Dreamcast, GameCube, and Wii all forcibly limit you to 15kHz over SCART. Some have posited that it's because feeding 31kHz+ to 15kHz-only displays can damage the circuitry or the tubes, but YPbPr component doesn't have similar protection, and I don't think there's been any confirmation that that is the reason for not allowing 31kHz+ RGB over SCART.

There's also the fact that Sony seemed to really like RGsB, and included support for it in many of their devices and displays, which might be why they decided to use that instead of nothing for 31kHz RGB, as we've seen with the Xbox, GameCube, and Wii.

Classicgamer wrote:
I can test it with an official scart cable if anyone is interested. My monitor accepts 31khz via RGBs but I should lose sync if it actually switches to RGsB in 480p.

If your monitor accepts RGsB and doesn't require toggling an external-sync button or some OSD menu item, then you won't lose sync.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:09 pm 


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DirkSwizzler wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
There's absolutely no way that a day will ever come where one surplus $50 crosspoint is more expensive than 4 $200 custom switchers.

That line of thinking totally panned out for CRTs too... Oh wait, no. It very much did not.

maxtherabbit wrote:
You guys are also forgetting the concept of matrixing, what if you want to play something on the CRT while your girl or kids play something else on the flat screen?

Why would I purposefully avoid an opportunity to play a game with my kids? Passing on a cherished childhood experience with my own children. That sounds literally insane to me.
And to create that chance to skip playing with my kids. I have to pay a constant manual switching tax? No thanks.

maxtherabbit wrote:
Also, for the size complaints, Extron makes matrix switchers with the same functionality as the crosspoint in A SINGLE RACK UNIT that have DE-15 I/O ports for video. They do max out at 8x8 but even two of them would be smaller than one crosspoint.

But in my case I'd need at least 3.


The point I'm getting at (and have been for several posts now) is that each person likes their setup for their own reasons.

I've largely been taking the piss in this thread, but honestly my most treasured childhood gaming memories were always single player games like shmups, platformers or RPGs. I do love fighting games but beating up on kids is no fun :twisted: To each his own. I also hate autoswitching just like I hate automatic transmissions.

I still think you're whistling dixie about the extrons' pricing. For one, they are still being made (not all models obviously) two, the amount of shift that would be required would be an order of magnitude or more.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 10:10 pm 


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strygo wrote:
I hope the RetroTink models pan out - it would be great to finally have some solid alternatives on the market. If the performance matches and the price point is the same, my personal preference would be the make of the metal Linuxbot casing over the 3D printed cases of the RetroTink.

As for the Linuxbot devices, he sells two RGBHV models as well:

* YPbPr to RGBHV (in stock): https://www.ebay.com/itm/YPbPr-to-VGA-R ... 4014765120
* RGBHV to YPbPr (out of stock): https://www.ebay.com/itm/RGB-VGA-to-YPb ... 4012550538

Those do look really nice, if someone could verify the color space conversion is being done accurately I would heartily recommend them.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:17 pm 



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nmalinoski wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
I use my PS2 for both 15khz and 31khz with the same RGB cable. It still works when I unplug it from my Extron RGB interface and connect it directly to my tri-sync arcade monitor which, as far as I know, only accepts RGBS and RGBHV.

Which specific cable are you using, and has your console had a SoG-disable mod performed on it?

Classicgamer wrote:
The narrative passed around is that the PS2 switches from sync on composite video to sync on green when it switches to 31khz, not that RGsB works for all resolutions. I'm not sure if it is accurate but either way, it would be easily solved with the Ultimarc PS2 RGB cable or a $15 Extron RGB interface.

If your monitor doesn't support RGsB at all, I would think you'd need both the Ultimarc cable and an RGB interface; you would need the RGB interface to rewrite 31kHz+ RGsB to RGBS, and then you would need the Ultimarc cable to strip sync from composite (or luma; not sure which that cable uses) in order to get the RGB interface to accept the 15kHz RGBS (because it will completely ignore composite video and luma as sync signals).

Classicgamer wrote:
I think it is possible that somebody just got confused with how you take sync from the green cable when you change the color space to Ypbpr. It wouldn't be the first time that somebody spread inaccurate info that got regurgitated.

I have first-hand experience with the RGBS<->RGsB switching behavior from time with the PS2 Linux kit. The official VGA dongle only has R, G, and B connected on the DE-15 connector (no separate wire for sync, no sync stripper). With the component video mode set to RGB, I get no signal while booting the console (with audio connected, I can hear the boot sequence), and then I get a 480p image once the boot disc loads (defaults to VGA 640x480).

Now, if the PS2 was outputting something weird, like RGsBS, which would allow for 15kHz RGsB, it's possible the monitor I was using at the time simply didn't accept 15kHz RGB and/or interlaced frames; but you could easily determine what the PS2 is outputting by connecting it to an OSSC with a regular sync-on-composite or sync-on-luma RGB SCART cable and making sure that automatic input switching is disabled. When you boot the console, you should get sync with the input set to AV1-RGBS and no sync with the input set to AV1-RGsB; and, when you enable 480p in a compatible game, you should lose sync with the input set to AV1-RGBS and regain sync when you switch to AV1-RGsB.

You could also partially test this behavior by using a component cable and an OSSC. When you start the console with component mode set to RGB, you should get no image with the OSSC's input set to AV2-RGsB (nor AV2-YPbPr, for that matter) until you either boot the PS2 Linux boot disc or blindly enable 480p in a compatible game.

Classicgamer wrote:
It would be odd for Sony to choose to switch it RGsB as so few monitors accept it, and RGBHV is accepted by every CRT vga monitor. Not impossible though.

I don't think there was any kind of explanation direct from anyone, but no manufacturer of a console capable of 31kHz+ modes allowed anything higher than 15kHz modes via SCART--the PS2, PS3, Xbox, Xbox 360, Dreamcast, GameCube, and Wii all forcibly limit you to 15kHz over SCART. Some have posited that it's because feeding 31kHz+ to 15kHz-only displays can damage the circuitry or the tubes, but YPbPr component doesn't have similar protection, and I don't think there's been any confirmation that that is the reason for not allowing 31kHz+ RGB over SCART.

There's also the fact that Sony seemed to really like RGsB, and included support for it in many of their devices and displays, which might be why they decided to use that instead of nothing for 31kHz RGB, as we've seen with the Xbox, GameCube, and Wii.

Classicgamer wrote:
I can test it with an official scart cable if anyone is interested. My monitor accepts 31khz via RGBs but I should lose sync if it actually switches to RGsB in 480p.

If your monitor accepts RGsB and doesn't require toggling an external-sync button or some OSD menu item, then you won't lose sync.



My PS2 is unmodified. It works in 480p on my monitor with just the Ultimarc tri-sync cable (which outputs via DB15).

I can see logic in switching to RGBHV for 480p as that is easily the most common sync type on PC vga monitors. In the PS2 era, PC monitors would have been the most common 480p capable displays in people's homes. It was before even EDTV's were a thing. RGBHV is also what Namco 246 outputs in 480p mode and the 246 is basically a PS2.

RGsB is very rare and it makes even less sense for the PS2 to use it with the Linux dongle as people would have used that with a regular RGBHV pc monitor too.

I wish I could confirm but my tri-sync arcade monitors are all analog. There is no on-screen display to tell me what sync type is being used.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:19 pm 


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a side note: it's not uncommon to find PC-CRTs that accept composite sync


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:52 pm 



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DirkSwizzler wrote:
What exactly am I missing out on by not having a giant crosspoint? I will grant you that a crosspoint is cheaper for now. But it's definitely a giant headache for my use case and there will definitely come an inflection point where crosspoints are more expensive than my setup.


You're using FOUR analog switchers right now? (3x gscartsw's + a gcompsw?) Or did I miss some? For starters you could replace ALL those switchers with ONE Extron Crosspoint!

Those 4x converters/transcoders? Each wouldn't need to be paired with individual console groupings anymore, which run to their own switcher, which in turn runs to yet another switcher after that – ALL can be looped into the same Crosspoint at once. That would really simplify things. You can then switch any input to any output. Switch any console to any converter, then to any screen. You can even link multiple converters together then output to any number of screens at the press of a single button.

If you want a couple good general use scenarios (usually applicable to people with multiple screens setup who play with multiple people - like I do on game night):
Spoiler: show
My Xbox 360 for example goes to my flatscreen via HDMI (usually for modern 720p/1080p gaming), but also branches out to VGA before that (to the Crosspoint) for my PC CRT monitor. Goes through an Extron RGB to merge sync to RGBS for Multiformat PVM and BVM use. Also goes through a Corio2 scaler to convert the (mostly 480p Cave) Shmups to proper 240p for my PVM/BVM's which can only do SD/15khz; then commonly might also get routed to a RGBS > YPbPr converter for use on my larger consumer CRT's (depends on how many people are over for game night playing how many different systems at once). ALL this (again, once everything is looped back into the Crosspoint) can be done with a single button (have to setup the preset, once, beforehand though of course).

For an older 'HD' (EDTV) analog console, my Dreamcast in 480p (through Toro) goes into the Crosspoint as RGBHV (BeharBros sync combiners sucks as you prob know), then directly out to a PC CRT monitor. An Extron RGB can merge the sync to RGBS for Multiformat PVM/BVM use. I can route it through the same (or another) Extron RGB with SERR dipswitch turned on since BVM's need the flagging on top fixed this way (PVM's usually don't). I can likewise downscale through a Corio2 for 240p use on SD/15khz CRTs. Can output to YpPbPr consumer TV that way too. It can also do all the above + have the Crosspoint output to my upscaling setup where I can use either the OSSC, XRGB-mini (for 480i), or even OSSC + Extron DSC 301 HD (which I commonly use for perfect 2x integer 960p upscaling).

Normal RGBS 240p consoles (which is the majority) are of course just super simple. Switch the signal to any CRT, or to the upscaling setup and you're good to go on either type of screen.

I have a Kramer CV or YC to RGBS (or YPbPr even) converter looped in as well - lets me standardize all systems (including systems I barely play so they're still S-Video only - like the N64 and GC) into RGBS - even my SVHS player! Also lets me get them into the OSSC which doesn't take YC (or CV/Composite either). Have YPbPr to RGBS as well. Again, no separate switchers needed, just loop in/out of the Crosspoint.

I commonly do this because I like to tinker and fine-tune my system. I can take any system and compare it on multiple screens at once - I'm not limited to the 2x outputs of a gscart. I can compare the OSSC to the XRGB-mini, to the OSSC+DSC 301 HD and see which does a better job. I can see how 480i looks on a 400 TVL monitor or a 900 TVL one side-by-side. I can have two of my buddies playing 2-player i.Link PS2 light gun games on TWO different monitors at the same time as I'm playing whatever I want on the flatscreen (or another CRT monitor). I can compare the Xbox 360 port of a game to the GroovyMAME/CRTemudriver version (or even the real arcade board). Etc. etc. etc. Really endless possibilities.



Oh, and I almost forgot (not really ;) about how I also have total control over the Crosspoint via any touchscreen device in my house (which the whole family, even my cousin's 5 year old, has no problem touching the icon of the system they want to play):

Image


Last edited by Dochartaigh on Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:11 am 


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That's awesome work! :o

Is that a Crestron touchscreen setup you're using? Or, are you sending commands directly to the Crosspoint?
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:41 am 



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orange808 wrote:
That's awesome work! :o

Is that a Crestron touchscreen setup you're using? Or, are you sending commands directly to the Crosspoint?


Where have you been orange808????!!? Directions here. Runs on any web-capable device on the same network as the Crosspoint. I'm running it on an ancient iPad 2 I haven't been using for years (before it found it's new home as my Crosspoint's control panel).


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:05 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
orange808 wrote:
That's awesome work! :o

Is that a Crestron touchscreen setup you're using? Or, are you sending commands directly to the Crosspoint?


Where have you been orange808????!!? Directions here. Runs on any web-capable device on the same network as the Crosspoint. I'm running it on an ancient iPad 2 I haven't been using for years (before it found it's new home as my Crosspoint's control panel).


Thanks. :) Apparently, I've been asleep on my feet...
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 1:23 am 


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You could accomplish the same thing with a number of gcompsw/gscartsw using the gpio pins on a raspberry pi (or arduino, maybe, but personally I'd find the pi easier). Connect the gpio pins to the pi to the ext ports on the gcompsw/gscartsw and write a little script triggered by the console buttons on a webpage hosted on the pi to change the gpio values to cause all the gcompsw/gscartsw to change inputs appropriately.

If you want to make it completely super seamless, get a pi zero w (which has built-in wifi) for each gcompsw or gscartsw, use some double-sided tape to attach the pi zero w to the underside of each switch, solder the gpio pins to the switch ext pins, solder the pi zero w power/ground pins to the switch's +5v rail and ground, pick one of the pi zero w as a master (to host the web page).

When the user clicks one of the console buttons on that webpage, that pi zero w directly toggles the appropriate gpio pins on its own switch, and wirelessly commands the other pi zero w (which could be done with, like, ssh in single-command mode where you just do something like "ssh user@gscartsw2 gpio write 4 1; gpio write 5 0; etc").

Now you've made the gcompsw/gscartsw controllable wirelessly, and because the pi zero is so thin, you should be able to fit it underneath the board, completely invisible (maybe remove the connectors to make it thinner, or use some slightly taller standoffs on the switch).


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:10 am 



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Guspaz wrote:
You could accomplish the same thing with a number of gcompsw/gscartsw using the gpio pins on a raspberry pi (or arduino, maybe, but personally I'd find the pi easier). Connect the gpio pins to the pi to the ext ports on the gcompsw/gscartsw and write a little script triggered by the console buttons on a webpage hosted on the pi to change the gpio values to cause all the gcompsw/gscartsw to change inputs appropriately.

If you want to make it completely super seamless, get a pi zero w (which has built-in wifi) for each gcompsw or gscartsw, use some double-sided tape to attach the pi zero w to the underside of each switch, solder the gpio pins to the switch ext pins, solder the pi zero w power/ground pins to the switch's +5v rail and ground, pick one of the pi zero w as a master (to host the web page).

When the user clicks one of the console buttons on that webpage, that pi zero w directly toggles the appropriate gpio pins on its own switch, and wirelessly commands the other pi zero w (which could be done with, like, ssh in single-command mode where you just do something like "ssh user@gscartsw2 gpio write 4 1; gpio write 5 0; etc").

Now you've made the gcompsw/gscartsw controllable wirelessly, and because the pi zero is so thin, you should be able to fit it underneath the board, completely invisible (maybe remove the connectors to make it thinner, or use some slightly taller standoffs on the switch).


It's just that simple :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 3:15 pm 



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ldeveraux wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
You could accomplish the same thing with a number of gcompsw/gscartsw using the gpio pins on a raspberry pi (or arduino, maybe, but personally I'd find the pi easier). Connect the gpio pins to the pi to the ext ports on the gcompsw/gscartsw and write a little script triggered by the console buttons on a webpage hosted on the pi to change the gpio values to cause all the gcompsw/gscartsw to change inputs appropriately.

If you want to make it completely super seamless, get a pi zero w (which has built-in wifi) for each gcompsw or gscartsw, use some double-sided tape to attach the pi zero w to the underside of each switch, solder the gpio pins to the switch ext pins, solder the pi zero w power/ground pins to the switch's +5v rail and ground, pick one of the pi zero w as a master (to host the web page).

When the user clicks one of the console buttons on that webpage, that pi zero w directly toggles the appropriate gpio pins on its own switch, and wirelessly commands the other pi zero w (which could be done with, like, ssh in single-command mode where you just do something like "ssh user@gscartsw2 gpio write 4 1; gpio write 5 0; etc").

Now you've made the gcompsw/gscartsw controllable wirelessly, and because the pi zero is so thin, you should be able to fit it underneath the board, completely invisible (maybe remove the connectors to make it thinner, or use some slightly taller standoffs on the switch).


It's just that simple :roll:



lol. And you would STILL be stuck with only 2 outputs, no ability to loop all those commonly used converters/transcoders in and out of it, and would still need separate switchers for RGBS vs. YPbPr. And again, if I missed mentioning this, the Crosspoint inputs and outputs pretty much EVERY single retro gaming signal: Composite, S-Video, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs (ok, I don't know what uses this but it'll do it ;), YPbPr, RGBHV/VGA, RF through a cheap Extron AVT 100 even).

Think I also forgot to mention the benefits of stereo audio switching in my above rant as well ;) yes, needs $5 adapters (or DIY Phoenix to RCA adapters for cheap), but you can still switch to multiple different speakers too which you can't do on gscart either. I personally switch to my ancient Bose acoustimass 2.1 system, to a little set of Bose PC speakers for the MAME setup w/ fightsticks, to the internal speakers on my 32" widescreen multiformat CRT; with audio going to the OSSC, XRGB-mini, and DSC 301 HD as well. Usually not all going at once (ok, sometimes it is and it's chaos!), but I do have 2x rooms running from this so at least 2 is common, sometimes 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:27 pm 


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Okay.

Here's what I see comparing direct SCART versus the Shinybow.

SCART was wired directly to the OSSC.
Shinybow was wired directly to the SNES (SCART) and directly to the OSSC (component).
OSSC x4 (960p out) with generic "stock" settings
OSSC wired directly to Datapath E1s card.
Grabbed screenshots with standard Datapath window app (full sampling).

Link:
https://imgur.com/a/TIkUg3s
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:07 pm 



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Location: Woodinville, WA
Interesting, thanks for doing this. These results are similar to what I am seeing. The problems definitely get more pronounced with the higher resolutions.

The Shinybow definitely is degrading the signal slightly. Do you have any other transcoders for comparison? Now I'm curious about the Linuxbot one too.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:22 pm 


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strygo wrote:
Interesting, thanks for doing this. These results are similar to what I am seeing. The problems definitely get more pronounced with the higher resolutions.

The Shinybow definitely is degrading the signal slightly. Do you have any other transcoders for comparison? Now I'm curious about the Linuxbot one too.


Sorry. :( I do not own a Linuxbot right now.

--------------

I do have a Kramer FC-14 (RGB to component). I probably need to pull it out of the video chain, wire it in directly, and grab some shots with all the other variables removed. (Although, I'm 99.9% sure it doesn't make any difference in my video chain.) I really don't want to disconnect it and move it, though.

*I can tell you what I see with the Kramer still hooked through the entire chain:

The Kramer shows a similar (but smaller) slight loss of sharpness. It's less pronounced than the Shinybow, but it's there.

The Shinybow adds a yellow/warm tint to colors. The Kramer does not. The FC-14 colors are very very close to direct RGB.

Neither machine is perfect.

-------------

I see good pretty good blacks and whites on both boxes. There isn't black crush with either machine.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:35 pm 



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No worries. Having just reconnected everything myself, I definitely don’t suggest doing that for this.

I’m curious now whether a specialized cable like the HD retrovision produces better results.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 6:49 pm 


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strygo wrote:
No worries. Having just reconnected everything myself, I definitely don’t suggest doing that for this.

I’m curious now whether a specialized cable like the HD retrovision produces better results.


Sorry. I sold my HDRetrovision cable when I decided I didn't want to go completely component. :(

Maybe someone else has one?
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:37 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
Okay.

Here's what I see comparing direct SCART versus the Shinybow.

SCART was wired directly to the OSSC.
Shinybow was wired directly to the SNES (SCART) and directly to the OSSC (component).
OSSC x4 (960p out) with generic "stock" settings
OSSC wired directly to Datapath E1s card.
Grabbed screenshots with standard Datapath window app (full sampling).

Link:
https://imgur.com/a/TIkUg3s


Uhh, is the Shinybow grey ramp yellow for some reason?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:55 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Okay.

Here's what I see comparing direct SCART versus the Shinybow.

SCART was wired directly to the OSSC.
Shinybow was wired directly to the SNES (SCART) and directly to the OSSC (component).
OSSC x4 (960p out) with generic "stock" settings
OSSC wired directly to Datapath E1s card.
Grabbed screenshots with standard Datapath window app (full sampling).

Link:
https://imgur.com/a/TIkUg3s

Yikes

That is a huge loss of sharpness


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:19 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Okay.

Here's what I see comparing direct SCART versus the Shinybow.

SCART was wired directly to the OSSC.
Shinybow was wired directly to the SNES (SCART) and directly to the OSSC (component).
OSSC x4 (960p out) with generic "stock" settings
OSSC wired directly to Datapath E1s card.
Grabbed screenshots with standard Datapath window app (full sampling).

Link:
https://imgur.com/a/TIkUg3s


The softer image is exactly why i returned the shinybow. The audio authority 9a60 preserves the sharpness of the original RGB signal in my experience. I'm interested to see a comparison to the fc-14 if you get a chance!


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:28 pm 


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Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:37 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


With the trouble of managing sampling aside, wouldn't a proper digital solution with firmware upgrades have a better chance of getting it right?
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:39 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


I don't remember where I heard this, but someone claimed the shinybow was basically just a CSY clone with fixed values instead of all those pots the clone has.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:47 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
I also hate autoswitching just like I hate automatic transmissions.

I also hate automatic transmissions, but I like autoswitching. For me, when I'm driving an ICE car that needs to switch gears to be usable, having a manual transmission gives me more control while driving, and automatic transmissions are simply frustrating because they shift when they want to, not when you want them to.

As for my retro setup, I want it simple; I just want to flip the main power, turn on a console, and go, not do that and have to futz with some selector.

Classicgamer wrote:
My PS2 is unmodified. It works in 480p on my monitor with just the Ultimarc tri-sync cable (which outputs via DB15).
...
I wish I could confirm but my tri-sync arcade monitors are all analog. There is no on-screen display to tell me what sync type is being used.

Then I would say that your monitor takes RGsB just fine and doesn't need an explicit toggle.

Classicgamer wrote:
I can see logic in switching to RGBHV for 480p as that is easily the most common sync type on PC vga monitors. In the PS2 era, PC monitors would have been the most common 480p capable displays in people's homes. It was before even EDTV's were a thing. RGBHV is also what Namco 246 outputs in 480p mode and the 246 is basically a PS2.

RGsB is very rare and it makes even less sense for the PS2 to use it with the Linux dongle as people would have used that with a regular RGBHV pc monitor too.

I would see logic in using RGBHV for 480p and higher, too, but that's not what Sony did. There are no pins on the AV port allocated to horizontal, vertical, or even clean composite sync, and the official VGA dongle works on a SoG-capable monitor without having any of the sync pins connected (I verified with a multimeter).

As for the Namco 246, it's based on the PS2, but it's not a PS2 console in a metal box (That honor would go to Konami's Python 1 and 2 systems); so Namco could take liberties, like offer RGBHV output from a DE-15 port. Konami did something similar with their System 573 hardware, which is PS1-based, and offers RGB (not sure if HV or S) from a DE-15 port, but none of this arcade hardware trivia changes the fact that the consumer consoles these systems are based on lack RGBHV output from their AV ports.

You absolutely can get RGBHV and RGBS with clean composite sync from these consoles, but not without some kind of a hardware mod to tap the corresponding vias or IC pins and wiring up (and optionally mounting) a DE-15 port (and then figuring out how to display 15kHz RGBHV is a different issue).


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:16 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


Does someone have a Shinybow handy and can post pictures of the PCB?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:42 pm 


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Here is a grey ramp photo of the Wii. Just a sanity test to make sure we can trust the OSSC's component handling. Looks fine. (Not the same machine generating the pattern here (It's Wii and the others were SNES), so that's important to remember before we nitpick too much. The important thing is the whites are better.)

https://imgur.com/a/JKEV5gW

Edit: Although, now that I look at it, the RGB from my OSSC seems to be a little cooler than the component.
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Last edited by orange808 on Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:50 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
strygo wrote:
No worries. Having just reconnected everything myself, I definitely don’t suggest doing that for this.

I’m curious now whether a specialized cable like the HD retrovision produces better results.


Sorry. I sold my HDRetrovision cable when I decided I didn't want to go completely component. :(

Maybe someone else has one?


I just tested RGB direct, HDRV and the RGB2COMP going to an OSSC Line5x generic sample. My Elgato HD60S is a complete piece of shit, so I wasn't able to get captures but everything looked just about perfect between the three. The only (minor) difference is that the HDRV output has a bit of chroma low-pass filtering -- but that's 100% the correct way of generating to-spec YPbPr signals and should only be noticeable on a test pattern, not normal usage.

Also keeping in mind that neither SCART nor RCA are really designed for a real 75 ohm impedance. Not only the cables, but we have no idea what the insertion loss is on the connectors themselves. So edges at 720p rates are definitely vulnerable to softening.


Last edited by mikechi2 on Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:54 pm 


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mikechi2 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


Does someone have a Shinybow handy and can post pictures of the PCB?


Let me look at the unit and see if I can open it up without horribly mangling it. :)

Edit:
No can do. Looks like they snapped the screws off after it was assembled? It's locked up tight and beyond my ability.
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