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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:03 pm 



Joined: 01 Jul 2017
Posts: 41
orange808 wrote:
mikechi2 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


Does someone have a Shinybow handy and can post pictures of the PCB?


Let me look at the unit and see if I can open it up without horribly mangling it. :)

Edit:
No can do. Looks like they snapped the screws off after it was assembled? It's locked up tight and beyond my ability.


LOL

Well if the blurry pics on this thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread ... 6693bd7dfe

are to be believed, the SB is most certainly an analog design, not surprising.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:13 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 372
Location: Woodinville, WA
In case you're curious, I came across pics of the 9A60 internals here: https://assemblergames.com/threads/cust ... 301/page-3


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:21 pm 


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Location: Montréal, Canada
ldeveraux wrote:
It's just that simple :roll:


It's an afternoon of work, it doesn't seem any more complex than the home-automation crosspoint solution that was mentioned earlier.

Dochartaigh wrote:
lol. And you would STILL be stuck with only 2 outputs


I only need two outputs. I only have two displays I use for console gaming. I have a third display that is actually connected because I have an HDMI splitter in the home theatre system that the OSSC is connected to, but I don't that display for that. My analog retro gaming signals go into an OSSC and a PVM.

Dochartaigh wrote:
no ability to loop all those commonly used converters/transcoders in and out of it


What converters/transcoders? The OSSC and PVM can handle all signals directly.

Dochartaigh wrote:
and would still need separate switchers for RGBS vs. YPbPr.


My solution to that problem was to convert everything to YPbPr. If I had some RGBS device that I needed to use, I would hook up my gscartsw and run its output through a retrotink YPbPr-to-RGBS transcoder and run that into the gcompsw. Or I could just let it pass RGBS into the gcompsw and just switch between RGB and YPbPr on the PVM or the OSSC, you can run an RGBS signal through the gcompsw just fine, it has six outputs and can auto-switch on the cvbs input.

Dochartaigh wrote:
And again, if I missed mentioning this, the Crosspoint inputs and outputs pretty much EVERY single retro gaming signal: Composite, S-Video, RGBS, RGsB, RsGsBs (ok, I don't know what uses this but it'll do it ;), YPbPr, RGBHV/VGA, RF through a cheap Extron AVT 100 even).


And yet, it apparently requires csync, so you'll need to add separete sync strippers for every single console that doesn't output csync natively. It sounds like a Crosspoint requires a heck of a lot more devices for processing the signal than the alternatives.[/quote]

Dochartaigh wrote:
Think I also forgot to mention the benefits of stereo audio switching in my above rant as well ;) yes, needs $5 adapters (or DIY Phoenix to RCA adapters for cheap), but you can still switch to multiple different speakers too which you can't do on gscart either.


Of course you can do this easily with the gscartsw or gcompsw. I have four audio outputs hooked up to my one gcompsw. The gcompsw/gscartsw have two audio/video outputs. If you have two different sets of speakers, that's enough. If you need more than that, then you can do what I do and have one of the audio outputs going into a separate audio setup. Mine goes into a simple audio amp that sends audio to headphones, a small speaker in front of the PVM, and my home theatre audio system.

Dochartaigh wrote:
I personally switch to my ancient Bose acoustimass 2.1 system, to a little set of Bose PC speakers for the MAME setup w/ fightsticks, to the internal speakers on my 32" widescreen multiformat CRT; with audio going to the OSSC, XRGB-mini, and DSC 301 HD as well. Usually not all going at once (ok, sometimes it is and it's chaos!), but I do have 2x rooms running from this so at least 2 is common, sometimes 3.


The percentage of people with retro gaming setups that need audio or video to be spread across multiple *rooms* is exceedingly small. That is a super niche use case, and the most common one is probably people who want to have their games show up on both their retro gaming display and maybe their home theatre in another room. That's something that is still supported by the gcompsw and gscartsw due to them having dual outputs.

The only thing that a crosspoint can really do that is unique is matrix switching, which I (and I suspect most people) don't need or want.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:43 pm 



Joined: 12 Jun 2017
Posts: 145
Reminder that everyone lives in america where crosspoints grow on trees.


Or not.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:39 am 


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orange808 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Either I was wrong about the Shinybow being an analog transcoder (definitely possible) or it's a much bigger piece of shit than I've been led to believe


With the trouble of managing sampling aside, wouldn't a proper digital solution with firmware upgrades have a better chance of getting it right?

as far as getting the color equations 100% perfect, absolutely

but sampling is everything, to do it well you would need to oversample the source many times over and shoot everything out through a super high bandwidth DAC


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:42 am 


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Guspaz wrote:
And yet, it apparently requires csync, so you'll need to add separete sync strippers for every single console that doesn't output csync natively. It sounds like a Crosspoint requires a heck of a lot more devices for processing the signal than the alternatives.

it also works just fine with RGsB and YPbPr - it doesn't require C-Sync, it just does not support sync-on-video on the sync ports

if you MERICA properly, the only relevant console that doesn't have c-sync is a playstation anyway, which can be modded


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:44 am 


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mikechi2 wrote:
are to be believed, the SB is most certainly an analog design, not surprising.

they must have used some woefully low bandwidth design, I'm really stunned that people have been recommending that shit

I should have thought twice before parroting them apparently


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:46 am 


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mikechi2 wrote:
Not only the cables, but we have no idea what the insertion loss is on the connectors themselves. So edges at 720p rates are definitely vulnerable to softening.

really glad you mentioned this. People in the retro community seem to be fairly unaware of insertion loss generally, as evidenced by the popularity of chaining 87 passive connector adapters in their setups


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:54 am 


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I have no idea why the shinybow was so recommended after trying one. I'm just glad ani-av has a good return policy.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:15 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1001
Guspaz wrote:
It's an afternoon of work, it doesn't seem any more complex than the home-automation crosspoint solution that was mentioned earlier.


It might be an afternoon of work for somebody who knows how to solder something up to the GPIO pins of a Raspberry Pi or Arduini, AND also knows how to write custom code... but that's really not skills that many gamers I know have. I'm pretty technical myself and I can't do that.

A gamer can however plug a Crosspoint into their ethernet hub like any other device, browse to the IP address (like they browse to a webpage) on any tablet/phone/computer in the house, and view Extron's built-in default web page where they can click on different presets to load them (if DHCP isn't turned on they might have to do an extra step with a $8 serial cable, and of course if they want to make a pretty interface that would be extra steps - which I give them the files for).




Guspaz wrote:
What converters/transcoders? The OSSC and PVM can handle all signals directly.

All the converters/transcoders myself and other people have been talking about in this topic, ones like: RF>CV, CV/YC>RGBS, YPbPr>RGBHV, RGBHV>RGBS, and last but not least (since this topic is about it ;) the Linuxbot3000 YPbPr>RGBS.

OSSC can't handle the first two mentioned as it doesn't have Composite or S-Video inputs (RF neither but that's kinda an outlier for many people). OSSC also can't output analog signals, period (unless we're talking about using converters from HDMI).

My larger 25"-32" PVM's (and my older 14/20" ones as well) can't take Component natively either. BVM's also can't take Composite, S-Video, or VGA signals without extra cards or converters as well.




Guspaz wrote:
And yet, it apparently requires csync, so you'll need to add separete sync strippers for every single console that doesn't output csync natively. It sounds like a Crosspoint requires a heck of a lot more devices for processing the signal than the alternatives.


Like maxtherabbit already said, ONLY PS1/PS2 needs a sync stripper (out of the 16 consoles I have hooked up at least). I'm sure there's other outliers (especially with all the different variations of different consoles), but it's really not a big deal at all.




Guspaz wrote:
The only thing that a crosspoint can really do that is unique is matrix switching, which I (and I suspect most people) don't need or want.


I think saying the 'only' unique thing is matrix switching is a HUGE understatement. Ability to take pretty much EVERY input type retro gaming uses all in ONE device? Ability to take WAY more inputs and outputs (audio too!) than the alternative? Ability to link multiple (and commonly used) converters into the switch so you don't have to rearrange cables, ever. Ability to save presets (as complex as you want). Light-up display panel, web interface, independently switch audio from video to any input/output... pretty huge things here.

For people not wanting or needing it, I actually don't think that's true - I think people are just put-off by the process to setup one because they're not informed of it's massive amounts of benefits, and also probably because of how it's physically larger than a gRetro switch (well, maybe not when you start linking 3x of them together with even more different switches like I commonly read and see...).

I know you only run two main screens, but TONS use more than that. A pretty common higher-end enthusiast setup would be something like a single BVM, a larger Consumer TV (size is always king), and a modern flatscreen with upscaler(s). They already need at least TWO different devices to run a common setup like that: an Extron RGB to fix flagging on the BVM and merge sync, and a RGB to Component converter for the consumer CRT (for those of us in the USA of course). Can't even go to an upscaler in such a setup with a gscartsw since you're limited to 2x outputs (maybe loop through from the BVM? - but still, not ideal). Not to mention how if you have a couple different consoles that need to use the Extron (or any converter), how do you use those without yet another switcher or without manually plugging and unplugging wires (or using the highest end Extron RGB Rxi 203 with multiple inputs which are pricy anymore)? We're talking about major time saving (especially with saved presets) when you use a Crosspoint to do all this.

Anyway, I've said my peace about the benefits of a Crosspoint setup.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 7:24 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 1001
cyborc wrote:
I have no idea why the shinybow was so recommended after trying one. I'm just glad ani-av has a good return policy.


Just curious how this topic got onto the Shinybow (ok, I've been TOTALLY off-topic myself in this thread too, so no harm no foul ;) . Are we still talking about the SB-2840 which I saw initially mentioned? That's RGBS to YPbPr, not YPbPr to SCART/RGBS like the Linuxbot3000 this topic if about (does Shinybow make one like that?).

The SB-2840 is also the only one I know of from Shinybow which is highly recommended and talked about on the forums so I assume it's the one everybody is talking about here.... but anyway, you also have to think of how this device is used - it's mostly used on Consumer CRT TV's which are SD/Standard Definition. Quality isn't exactly many of those Consumer TV's strong point, and I've had nothing but praise for my SB-2840 even on my higher-end FV310's. I never regularly convert a RGBS console to YPbPr then play it on a PVM or BVM as those always have RGBS inputs (as do the most common upscalers).


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 8:11 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
All the converters/transcoders myself and other people have been talking about in this topic, ones like: RF>CV, CV/YC>RGBS, YPbPr>RGBHV, RGBHV>RGBS, and last but not least (since this topic is about it ;) the Linuxbot3000 YPbPr>RGBS.

OSSC can't handle the first two mentioned as it doesn't have Composite or S-Video inputs (RF neither but that's kinda an outlier for many people). OSSC also can't output analog signals, period (unless we're talking about using converters from HDMI).

My larger 25"-32" PVM's (and my older 14/20" ones as well) can't take Component natively either. BVM's also can't take Composite, S-Video, or VGA signals without extra cards or converters as well.


I don't have any devices that need such converters, because I've got everything outputting component, but the crosspoint would only have an advantage there if you had more than one console that output composite, or s-video, or something like that (for the scenario of routing multiple video outputs through a single converter). The Crosspoint is no more able to handle composite and s-video than the gscartsw and gcompsw are: both of them can handle those with the appropriate adapters, just like the crosspoint.

Dochartaigh wrote:
Like maxtherabbit already said, ONLY PS1/PS2 needs a sync stripper (out of the 16 consoles I have hooked up at least). I'm sure there's other outliers (especially with all the different variations of different consoles), but it's really not a big deal at all.


The GameCube uses composite video sync (for the PAL model, which has native RGB output, and supports NTSC timings, but has no csync or luma), which became moot once I switched to gcvideo output. The SNES 1CHIP 03 uses composite or luma sync. I can't think of any other examples (did the PAL Wii output csync?), and only the GameCube and PS1 were directly relevant to me.

Dochartaigh wrote:
I think saying the 'only' unique thing is matrix switching is a HUGE understatement. Ability to take pretty much EVERY input type retro gaming uses all in ONE device? Ability to take WAY more inputs and outputs (audio too!) than the alternative? Ability to link multiple (and commonly used) converters into the switch so you don't have to rearrange cables, ever. Ability to save presets (as complex as you want). Light-up display panel, web interface, independently switch audio from video to any input/output... pretty huge things here.

For people not wanting or needing it, I actually don't think that's true - I think people are just put-off by the process to setup one because they're not informed of it's massive amounts of benefits, and also probably because of how it's physically larger than a gRetro switch (well, maybe not when you start linking 3x of them together with even more different switches like I commonly read and see...).


I've already explained why audio is not an advantage (as I mentioned, I have four audio outputs going off one gcompsw). I technically have a third output because my PVM (like most PVMs and BVMs) has video outputs for looping it to an additional device. I stopped using it once I got a video switch with two outputs, but it's there if I need it.

Dochartaigh wrote:
I know you only run two main screens, but TONS use more than that. A pretty common higher-end enthusiast setup would be something like a single BVM, a larger Consumer TV (size is always king), and a modern flatscreen with upscaler(s). They already need at least TWO different devices to run a common setup like that: an Extron RGB to fix flagging on the BVM and merge sync, and a RGB to Component converter for the consumer CRT (for those of us in the USA of course). Can't even go to an upscaler in such a setup with a gscartsw since you're limited to 2x outputs (maybe loop through from the BVM? - but still, not ideal). Not to mention how if you have a couple different consoles that need to use the Extron (or any converter), how do you use those without yet another switcher or without manually plugging and unplugging wires (or using the highest end Extron RGB Rxi 203 with multiple inputs which are pricy anymore)? We're talking about major time saving (especially with saved presets) when you use a Crosspoint to do all this.
[/quote]

I don't think 3+ retro gaming setups are common, no. I think they're a niche limited to ultra-enthusiasts like yourself. As I mentioned, I have an output for a third screen if I need it. Well, fourth screen, technically, since my PC monitor is technically connected to the OSSC via an HDMI splitter in my home theatre system, but I don't use that. I'm not sure what you mean about the Extron RGB, however. If your BVM requires video to route through it, then you put the Extron RGB between the switch and the BVM. Why would you be unplugging and plugging wires for that?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:57 pm 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
cyborc wrote:
I have no idea why the shinybow was so recommended after trying one. I'm just glad ani-av has a good return policy.


Just curious how this topic got onto the Shinybow (ok, I've been TOTALLY off-topic myself in this thread too, so no harm no foul ;) . Are we still talking about the SB-2840 which I saw initially mentioned? That's RGBS to YPbPr, not YPbPr to SCART/RGBS like the Linuxbot3000 this topic if about (does Shinybow make one like that?).

The SB-2840 is also the only one I know of from Shinybow which is highly recommended and talked about on the forums so I assume it's the one everybody is talking about here.... but anyway, you also have to think of how this device is used - it's mostly used on Consumer CRT TV's which are SD/Standard Definition. Quality isn't exactly many of those Consumer TV's strong point, and I've had nothing but praise for my SB-2840 even on my higher-end FV310's. I never regularly convert a RGBS console to YPbPr then play it on a PVM or BVM as those always have RGBS inputs (as do the most common upscalers).


I will agree that the Shinybow looks great on my CRT. I tried an AA 9A60 and I couldn't get it to work with CSync on the HSync pin, which is how everything in my setup is wired, so I don't see how that's an easy to recommend alternative as some people have mentioned.

I also tried Linuxbot's RGB to YPbPr adapter athat had problems too. So if the Shinybow isn't a go-to recommendation all of a sudden, I guess Mikechi's solution is all that's left?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:14 pm 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
I also tried Linuxbot's RGB to YPbPr adapter athat had problems too. So if the Shinybow isn't a go-to recommendation all of a sudden, I guess Mikechi's solution is all that's left?

you were the person I was thinking of - what issue were you having again? it was a color hue right?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 2:15 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 372
Location: Woodinville, WA
What problems did the Linuxbot RGB to YPbPr have? (Also, when did you purchase it? - my understanding is that there was a revision at some point)

As I have documented in this thread, the Linuxbot YPbPr to RGB device has been the best performing for me after a long list of other devices I have tested.

At this point, I am unaware of a flawless solution for RGB to YPbPr. The CSY clone was visibly worse than the SB, but I have found the SB’s performance to be in the same ballpark as the new RGB2COMP. As you mention, for the use case of going to a consumer CRT, especially for 240p and even 480p, all of these devices aren’t bad - they are just not flawless. I haven’t yet tested an AA, and I likely will out of curiosity once I track one down.

My specific setup is a bit unique - under normal circumstances, you wouldn’t need to convert a higher definition signal from RGB to YPbPr since all of these systems output YPbPr directly. I don’t even need it, since I can go YPbPr direct where I need to. I am more interested now on learning what is and isn’t possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:18 pm 


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I agree about the Shinybow on a CRT television. It looks fine. The loss of sharpness isn't significant there and you can always adjust the colors a little cooler.

It just depends on what you're doing and how picky you want to be.

AFAIK, the Shinybow doesn't crush blacks, burn out the whites, turn purple, or drop sync. It's not perfect, but it's not terrible. I didn't see a change in black levels, either.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:12 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
I agree about the Shinybow on a CRT television. It looks fine. The loss of sharpness isn't significant there and you can always adjust the colors a little cooler.

It just depends on what you're doing and how picky you want to be.

AFAIK, the Shinybow doesn't crush blacks, burn out the whites, turn purple, or drop sync. It's not perfect, but it's not terrible. I didn't see a change in black levels, either.


I guess I fall into the picky camp. :D I noticed the softer picture of the shinybow as soon as I plugged it into my CRT. (I was using the 9a60 previously)


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 7:53 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Okay.

Here's what I see comparing direct SCART versus the Shinybow.

SCART was wired directly to the OSSC.
Shinybow was wired directly to the SNES (SCART) and directly to the OSSC (component).
OSSC x4 (960p out) with generic "stock" settings
OSSC wired directly to Datapath E1s card.
Grabbed screenshots with standard Datapath window app (full sampling).

Link:
https://imgur.com/a/TIkUg3s

this was the Shinybow SB-2840, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:30 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Okay.

Here's what I see comparing direct SCART versus the Shinybow.

SCART was wired directly to the OSSC.
Shinybow was wired directly to the SNES (SCART) and directly to the OSSC (component).
OSSC x4 (960p out) with generic "stock" settings
OSSC wired directly to Datapath E1s card.
Grabbed screenshots with standard Datapath window app (full sampling).

Link:
https://imgur.com/a/TIkUg3s

this was the Shinybow SB-2840, right?


Yes. That's the one.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 19, 2019 9:28 pm 


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I said this before but there was some bad psus out their for shinybows SB-2840 causing some of these symptoms. There was a reddit article on it, can't find it anymore.

Not saying that is the fault, but could be.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2019 6:09 am 



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Location: Woodinville, WA
I don't have any photos to share yet, but I just got an Audio Authority 9A60 and so far, it has produced the best results for RGB to YPbPr out of everything I've tried. Its image is much clearer than the Shinybow and Retrotink, especially for the higher resolutions. It's still not perfect - the source YPbPr image is still a bit clearer, but this is much closer.

I've read that it supports RGBS, but I don't have a RGBS or SCART to DB15 cable. Fortunately, my setup downstream has an Extron MVX that I'm able to feed directly into the 9A60.

I'm still interested in testing a Linuxbot3000 converter, but one hasn't been listed on eBay lately. Once I have some more time, I'll do some more thorough testing and take some photos to share.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Oct 08, 2019 11:25 am 



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I received my RetroTink RGB2COMP yesterday and replaced my Shinybow. I have no concrete evidence, but this tiny thing seems snappier and clearer, with no noticeable lag. For all the issues I had with the RetroTink2x, this thing just works perfectly. Not sure Mike has his own thread, but figured I'd mention something here!


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