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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:04 pm 


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The Sony HS420 seems like a digital display, so are you sure it isn't doing chroma subsampling on YPbPr signals?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:09 pm 



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Well, the display itself isn't perfect. It does a decent job with progressive content and it's large, which is why I have it. I only used it since my setup made it easy to do a fast test.

The issue at hand is that when I compare the straight YPbPr signal to the one that makes a round trip through RGB, the former is much clearer and crisper.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 6:35 pm 


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Did you test it with some other display, though? Just because the display works well with other things doesn't mean it might not be subsampling its component input. My first digital TV did just that.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:17 pm 



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I checked out a couple of these transcoders. They seem to cost a lot for what they are (compared to other types of transcoder). I assume that is because of the limited demand for converters that go from to component to rgb. It's not easy to even search for one as the results are overwhelmed with devices that do the opposite.

Has anyone compared one to one of the many inexpensive (and more plentiful) component to HDMI transcoders?

I am not talking about the cheap and crappy upscalers. You can buy a component to HDMI converter that leaves the res you input (480p in = 480p out) for around $20 delivered on Amazon and ebay. Obviously more cost effective if they do a reasonable job...

I use a cheap digital to analog adapter to go from 480p HDMI to 480p vga with my PS3 to avoid the need for changing cables and settings. I could do the same on an original Xbox.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2019 9:58 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
I checked out a couple of these transcoders. They seem to cost a lot for what they are (compared to other types of transcoder). I assume that is because of the limited demand for converters that go from to component to rgb. It's not easy to even search for one as the results are overwhelmed with devices that do the opposite.

Has anyone compared one to one of the many inexpensive (and more plentiful) component to HDMI transcoders?

I am not talking about the cheap and crappy upscalers. You can buy a component to HDMI converter that leaves the res you input (480p in = 480p out) for around $20 delivered on Amazon and ebay. Obviously more cost effective if they do a reasonable job...

I use a cheap digital to analog adapter to go from 480p HDMI to 480p vga with my PS3 to avoid the need for changing cables and settings. I could do the same on an original Xbox.


AFAIK, there is no DAC out there without shortcomings. So, you're trading one set of issues for another.

Also, for a little more, the OSSC is the better buy. It can transcode component to a proper RGB HDMI or DVI output (with no guesswork).

But, that leads to some sort sacrifice with the DAC. I haven't heard of a standalone DAC that performs properly in every situation yet.

And, this why I'll be begging marqs to take my money if there is a new OSSC with digital input and analog RGB -- :) and component? :) -- output. That would be the absolute end of transcoders as we know them to be. I don't care if it's $200. That is still a bargain for a piece of gear that does what it's supposed to do.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 12:19 am 



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The OSSC is an upscaler. While it technically could be used as just a transcoder, it is major overkill for this purpose. Kinda like buying a BMW just so you'd have somewhere to sit.

The issue is using consoles that only output component video with displays that only have RGB input such as the original Xbox (which can't output 480p RGB) and the American Wii.

It's not about upscaling or deinterlacing. A transcoder outputs the same resolution you input and changes nothing except the color space. It doesn't require expensive hardware to do a decent job. Most of the $50 - $60 devices I have seen that convert 240p rgb to 240p component are as lossless as most people would notice.

So, I want the cheapest device that will allow me to use an OG Xbox in 480p on my tri-sync crt arcade monitor via RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:06 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
The OSSC is an upscaler.


It's a line doubler/scanline generator/transcoder. Upscalers can target a specific output signal.

Classicgamer wrote:
While it technically could be used as just a transcoder, it is major overkill for this purpose. Kinda like buying a BMW just so you'd have somewhere to sit.


Nope. The OSSC is not overkill given the extremely reasonable price of the unit versus professional gear. I see plenty of features and high performance at bargain basement price. It's a very handy little piece of kit.

Furthermore, the robust abilities to tweak sampling allows users to get the signal properly transcoded. For instance, a cheap HDMI to VGA transcoder will butcher Dreamcast.

Classicgamer wrote:
The issue is using consoles that only output component video with displays that only have RGB input such as the original Xbox (which can't output 480p RGB) and the American Wii.

I have more transcoding use cases in my setup than that.

Classicgamer wrote:

It's not about upscaling or deinterlacing. A transcoder outputs the same resolution you input and changes nothing except the color space. It doesn't require expensive hardware to do a decent job. Most of the $50 - $60 devices I have seen that convert 240p rgb to 240p component are as lossless as most people would notice.


See above about the Dreamcast.

Classicgamer wrote:

So, I want the cheapest device that will allow me to use an OG Xbox in 480p on my tri-sync crt arcade monitor via RGB.


Then, go buy the cheapest thing you can find. I'm not stopping you.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 1:58 pm 


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the problem with using the OSSC as a general purpose transcoder is sampling adjustment

a basic analog-domain transcoder will "just work" with any signal within its bandwidth limitations, to do it properly with the OSSC you would have to adjust the sampling parameters to match every different input signal you feed it


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 2:48 pm 


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For most people, the default OSSC settings sample with high enough frequency to work fine with most consoles. You plug stuff in and video comes out.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:18 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
For most people, the default OSSC settings sample with high enough frequency to work fine with most consoles. You plug stuff in and video comes out.

people who don't optimize their sampling are bad and should feel bad


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:41 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
For most people, the default OSSC settings sample with high enough frequency to work fine with most consoles. You plug stuff in and video comes out.

people who don't optimize their sampling are bad and should feel bad

I don't optimize my sampling. Fight me. :P

The default settings really are good enough for me. The only settings I end up changing are things like audio downsampling (turning off), automatic input switching (turning on), and configuring one profile with TX Mode set to DVI and one set to HDMI, so that I can use digital audio from my Xbox and PS2 (because the OSSC always sends an audio signal with HDMI mode, and I need to disable that to get my AVR to correctly fall back on optical) and analogue from everything else.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:49 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
the problem with using the OSSC as a general purpose transcoder is sampling adjustment

a basic analog-domain transcoder will "just work" with any signal within its bandwidth limitations, to do it properly with the OSSC you would have to adjust the sampling parameters to match every different input signal you feed it


The closest thing to that is the Extron DVC RGB-HD A ("VGA" to HDMI). That one can be had for the princely sum of $500usd. It does a pretty good job, but it won't always work as a "plug and play". The OSSC is a better buy.

https://www.extron.com/product/dvcrgbhda

The Extron has EDID options and some sampling options available through the configuration software. That's necessary because there are always edge cases.

But, the OSSC is still a more flexible solution (except for the missing EDID editing).

The Extron low pass filter was an advantage, but the OSSC caught up. I can take a 5 BNC cable, wire RGB lines to SCART, wire sync lines to HD15, and the OSSC now also provides a low pass filter for RGBHV.

The OSSC also lets me save profiles, so I only have to set it up once. The Extron just remembers the last settings when it powers on and I have to use a laptop (and cable) to make any adjustments. The OSSC has a menu and a remote.

Yes. In most cases, the Extron one really will deliver plug and play performance--even with a Dreamcast. But, it costs quite a bit more than the OSSC--and the OSSC is better most of the time.

I intentionally avoided the Chinese trash because it's cheap Chinese trash.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 4:53 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
For most people, the default OSSC settings sample with high enough frequency to work fine with most consoles. You plug stuff in and video comes out.

people who don't optimize their sampling are bad and should feel bad


I wouldn't even know where to start.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 5:04 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
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maxtherabbit wrote:
people who don't optimize their sampling are bad and should feel bad

5x generic with the 16 MHz LPF is plenty sharp for me. I'm far more bothered by the incorrect aspect ratios that you get with optimal sampling of non-square input PARs.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:09 pm 



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Line doubling, up-scaling and deinterlacing are different sides of the same coin. The point is that the primary purpose of the OSSC is to make old consoles work and look better on modern high definition displays. It exists to solve the problem that HD fixed pixel displays do a terrible job of scaling and deinterlacing 240p and 480i consoles. They are cost effective in that role compared to more expensive devices like the Framemeister. They are not cost effective as a pure color transcoder.

For somebody using an RGB capable CRT that can display consoles in their native res, it is most definitely overkill to spend $150 on a device to display $30 consoles when the same job can be done for $50-$60.

The original Xbox and Wii both output 480i and 480p natively. My tri-sync crt can display 480i and 480p natively. None of the OSSCs additional capabilities are beneficial in any way.

The number of consoles that output component but not RGB is tiny. Everything up to the PS1 either outputs RGB natively or with a cheap mod. Everything from the PS3 onwards outputs HDMI which can be converted to analog RGB with a $15 adapter. It's it's just the Wii and original Xbox that need a color transcoder.

In my case, it's only the Xbox that really needs it because I like light gun games. The Wii works and looks find on my flatscreen monitor via component and has no real light gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:15 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Line doubling, up-scaling and deinterlacing are different sides of the same coin. The point is that the primary purpose of the OSSC is to make old consoles work and look better on modern high definition displays. It exists to solve the problem that HD fixed pixel displays do a terrible job of scaling and deinterlacing 240p and 480i consoles. They are cost effective in that role compared to more expensive devices like the Framemeister. They are not cost effective as a pure color transcoder.

For somebody using an RGB capable CRT that can display consoles in their native res, it is most definitely overkill to spend $150 on a device to display $30 consoles when the same job can be done for $50-$60.

The original Xbox and Wii both output 480i and 480p natively. My tri-sync crt can display 480i and 480p natively. None of the OSSCs additional capabilities are beneficial in any way.

The number of consoles that output component but not RGB is tiny. Everything up to the PS1 either outputs RGB natively or with a cheap mod. Everything from the PS3 onwards outputs HDMI which can be converted to analog RGB with a $15 adapter. It's it's just the Wii and original Xbox that need a color transcoder.

In my case, it's only the Xbox that really needs it because I like light gun games. The Wii works and looks find on my flatscreen monitor via component and has no real light gun.


I fucking like turtles.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:04 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
the problem with using the OSSC as a general purpose transcoder is sampling adjustment

a basic analog-domain transcoder will "just work" with any signal within its bandwidth limitations, to do it properly with the OSSC you would have to adjust the sampling parameters to match every different input signal you feed it


The closest thing to that is the Extron DVC RGB-HD A ("VGA" to HDMI). That one can be had for the princely sum of $500usd. It does a pretty good job, but it won't always work as a "plug and play". The OSSC is a better buy.

https://www.extron.com/product/dvcrgbhda

The Extron has EDID options and some sampling options available through the configuration software. That's necessary because there are always edge cases.

But, the OSSC is still a more flexible solution (except for the missing EDID editing).

The Extron low pass filter was an advantage, but the OSSC caught up. I can take a 5 BNC cable, wire RGB lines to SCART, wire sync lines to HD15, and the OSSC now also provides a low pass filter for RGBHV.

The OSSC also lets me save profiles, so I only have to set it up once. The Extron just remembers the last settings when it powers on and I have to use a laptop (and cable) to make any adjustments. The OSSC has a menu and a remote.

Yes. In most cases, the Extron one really will deliver plug and play performance--even with a Dreamcast. But, it costs quite a bit more than the OSSC--and the OSSC is better most of the time.

I intentionally avoided the Chinese trash because it's cheap Chinese trash.

The Extron is also a digital device, it's going to have the exact same set of problems that result from a ADC->DAC conversion chain being used to transcode an analog color space

The Shinybow devices, the old Audio Authority boxes, and the soon to be released retrotink converters transcode the colors totally in analog, there is no digital sampling taking place, and they work quite well. Certainly not Chinese trash


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 8:07 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
For most people, the default OSSC settings sample with high enough frequency to work fine with most consoles. You plug stuff in and video comes out.

people who don't optimize their sampling are bad and should feel bad


I wouldn't even know where to start.

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:21 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
The Extron is also a digital device, it's going to have the exact same set of problems that result from a ADC->DAC conversion chain being used to transcode an analog color space

The Shinybow devices, the old Audio Authority boxes, and the soon to be released retrotink converters transcode the colors totally in analog, there is no digital sampling taking place, and they work quite well. Certainly not Chinese trash


My remark regarding Chinese cheap stuff was directed toward all the generic "VGA to HDMI" dongles out there.

:( A misguided adventure for me from the beginning, because you were talking more about analog conversions. :(

-------------

Regarding the Extron: Given the nature of that specific RGB to HDMI conversion, an all analog solution would be an oxymoron.

(My fault for making an example of a specific unit when you were referencing the downsides of an "all purpose" transcoder.)

Although, my point was that the OSSC offers impressive features for a fraction of professional gear cost.

You're right about the sampling issue. That would always be a pain in the behind.

---------

I wasn't aware that the Shinybow SCART to component was an analog design. That's interesting. I previously believed the Kramer FC-14 units were the only all analog RGB to component boxes.

The Retrotink device is definitely worth anticipating. I'm looking forward to it.
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2019 9:47 pm 


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Quote:
I wasn't aware that the Shinybow SCART to component was an analog design. That's interesting. I previously believed the Kramer FC-14 units were the only all analog RGB to component boxes.

I would say that the majority of classic transcoders were built on a purely analogue design. Audio Authority, Burosch, Crescendo Systems, Kramer. At least I can't think of any device that was digitizing the signal first.

After all these were the only solutions to get the "rather complicated" DC VGA signal into a digital TV or processor without running into the sampling issues that the "direct" VGA inputs offered.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 12:08 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:

I wouldn't even know where to start.

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html


Now I remember why I never went down that road :D I'm not trying to manually load a profile every time I use a different console. If you've followed dirkswizzler's recommendation thread, I'd much rather have a hands off system. Unless the profiles auto switch now?


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 1:21 pm 


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ldeveraux wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:

I wouldn't even know where to start.

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html


Now I remember why I never went down that road :D I'm not trying to manually load a profile every time I use a different console. If you've followed dirkswizzler's recommendation thread, I'd much rather have a hands off system. Unless the profiles auto switch now?

no you still have to pick them, but it can be done with 2-3 buttons presses on the remote

profile load -> 0-9

profile load -> profile load -> 1-5 (11-15)

it's the price you pay for maximum crunch


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 2:14 pm 



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ldeveraux wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:

I wouldn't even know where to start.

http://www.firebrandx.com/osscprofiles.html


Now I remember why I never went down that road :D I'm not trying to manually load a profile every time I use a different console. If you've followed dirkswizzler's recommendation thread, I'd much rather have a hands off system. Unless the profiles auto switch now?

You can have a profile auto-load for a given input, but that doesn't really help when you need separate profiles for several consoles connected to a switcher connected to a given input.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 10:37 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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orange808 wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Line doubling, up-scaling and deinterlacing are different sides of the same coin. The point is that the primary purpose of the OSSC is to make old consoles work and look better on modern high definition displays. It exists to solve the problem that HD fixed pixel displays do a terrible job of scaling and deinterlacing 240p and 480i consoles. They are cost effective in that role compared to more expensive devices like the Framemeister. They are not cost effective as a pure color transcoder.

For somebody using an RGB capable CRT that can display consoles in their native res, it is most definitely overkill to spend $150 on a device to display $30 consoles when the same job can be done for $50-$60.

The original Xbox and Wii both output 480i and 480p natively. My tri-sync crt can display 480i and 480p natively. None of the OSSCs additional capabilities are beneficial in any way.

The number of consoles that output component but not RGB is tiny. Everything up to the PS1 either outputs RGB natively or with a cheap mod. Everything from the PS3 onwards outputs HDMI which can be converted to analog RGB with a $15 adapter. It's it's just the Wii and original Xbox that need a color transcoder.

In my case, it's only the Xbox that really needs it because I like light gun games. The Wii works and looks find on my flatscreen monitor via component and has no real light gun.


I fucking like turtles.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:45 pm 


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Yep. :lol:

-----------------

I saw the Retrotink "RGB in to component out" is available for preorder. $50 is significantly cheaper than the Shinybow solution; that's a really great price. Also, there's a free case for early birds. :)

http://www.retrotink.com/

Looks like there will also be a "component in to RGB out" coming soon. (Looking forward to moving on from the Garo.)

@strygo
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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2019 11:50 pm 



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I haven't had time yet. I did order Mike's new RGB2Comp device, so I'm curious to see if it resolves my Shinybow issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:23 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
I saw the Retrotink "RGB in to component out" is available for preorder. $50 is significantly cheaper than the Shinybow solution; that's a really great price. Also, there's a free case for early birds. :)

http://www.retrotink.com/

Looks like there will also be a "component in to RGB out" coming soon. (Looking forward to moving on from the Garo.)


Whoa, didn't know he was taking orders!


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:01 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
I saw the Retrotink "RGB in to component out" is available for preorder. $50 is significantly cheaper than the Shinybow solution; that's a really great price. Also, there's a free case for early birds. :)

http://www.retrotink.com/

Looks like there will also be a "component in to RGB out" coming soon. (Looking forward to moving on from the Garo.)


eh...I'll hold off unless he makes a VGA or BNC version - for people who run Crosspoints (which there's a LOT of us), we'll need another ~$40 BNC to SCART cable (or 2x donor cables and a decent amount of soldering, shrink wrap, and time) to even use this device since it only has SCART as an input.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:14 pm 



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Dochartaigh wrote:
eh...I'll hold off unless he makes a VGA or BNC version - for people who run Crosspoints (which there's a LOT of us), we'll need another ~$40 BNC to SCART cable (or 2x donor cables and a decent amount of soldering, shrink wrap, and time) to even use this device since it only has SCART as an input.

Would increase price, but I think it would be nice for a second hardware revision to have both SCART and DE-15 inputs, with an input selector.

Might also be nice if the community came up with a similar device that was an RGB interface with SCART and DE-15 inputs, and it output the user's choice of RGsB, RGBS, or RGBHV over DE-15. Would have a wonderful advantage over Extron's RGB interfaces if it took sync-on-composite and sync-on-luma; PS2 users would no longer need an inline sync stripper circuit (Ultimarc's PlayStation cable) or a ~$240 gscartsw in order to handle RGSB<->RGsB switching.


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 Post subject: Re: Linuxbot3000 YPbPr to SCART Converter
PostPosted: Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:27 pm 


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it would be nice if the community would just stop using SCART all together because it is a stupid connector and only use DE-15 or BNC


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