shmups.system11.org

No, not an Aimtrak (I don't like them either).

You can use a Guncon 2 on a Windows PC with Wingun drivers, or you can track down an Act Labs light gun (with a vga box). Both act as a mouse which makes them compatible with most emulators and PC based arcade games.

With a PC, you can use a real light gun on all gun games, even ones that didn't originally use a real light gun (like the HOD series in the arcades).


This guys demonstrates the use of a Guncon 2 with Time Crisis and HOD2 on the PC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jO4OMkRdvQ

I bought the Japanese Lightgun and it works fantastic on all games that support it.

Sorry to hear your having issues.

I'm not a lightgun aficionado, but I have two of the Madcatz guns that I bought pretty much exactly when HOTD2 was released and I never had any issues with them. I recall nearly 1ccing the game, so I don't think the experience could have been that terrible. This thread really has me curious about digging them out again, although I only have a 14" PVM to play on CRT-wise these days, so obviously not the same experience as the 32" CRT I used back then. Are PS2 guns really that much better in the accuracy department?

From my personal experience with the PS2 lightgun. It works the same as the Dreamcast. A few months ago I was on a lightgun binge and I was playing through games on the Dreamcast, PS2, Wii and PS3 with the move.

Ahh yes great times... no issues at all

Yes, the official Namco Guncon 2 is head and shoulders above all other home light guns. All of the 3rd party guns on the PS2 and PS1 suck. The official GC2 is noticeably more accurate than my Time Crisis arcade guns too.

You can see the difference most on the calibration screen. The crosshairs are rock solid and accuracy is repeatable. Every 3rd party gun I have seen (which is a lot) has shakey crosshairs that don't stay on target once you move a little. 3rd party guns also require that you turn brightness and contrast way up or the crosshairs won't reach the edge of the screen.

I currently have seventeen 3rd party guns, 6 official Namco guns, two TC arcade guns and an Act Labs light gun, so I stand behind what I said here.

Wow... I never knew lightguns had this sort of accuracy issue

I've always had great experience with all lightguns I've used. Dating back from the Master System to the PS2.

When the dreamcast first came out my buddies owned two mad catz lightguns for house of the dead. They worked great!

Man talking about lightguns... those were my favorite times of the Dreamcast

It's not just light guns specifically. All gun controller tech has the potential for accuracy issues. I experienced the same shakey crosshairs during calibration with the CCD gun on a Time Crisis 4 arcade cab recently.

In terms of why some think a specific gun is great while others don't, it's most likely about expectations. I didn't have such high standards until I tried the official GC2.... It ruined me for all others.

There are other factors that effect light gun accuracy though. E.g. The type of lighting in the room, the size of monitor, the shape of the screen - some work better on flat CRT's than others. The age of the hardware matters too. Once great guns can lose accuracy over time as caps age.

I do remember the Madcatz guns having a bit of shake during calibration, but never to the degree that the jitter would have a discernible effect on gameplay since the hit and hurt boxes in most of these games seem to be fairly large. I am really curious about trying a Guncon2 now, though.

I think that's the thing: most of these games pre-GunCon had a degree of auto-aim built in to cover for the limitations of the guns.

I'm sure earlier light gun games were more forgiving on accuracy but I find it frustrating when I can't calibrate the gun properly.


I like to put the sights on the calibration screen target and see the crosshairs be where I am aiming. When the crosshairs flip flop left and right, it makes accuracy unreliable in game. I.e. I miss shots that should have hit and have shots that don't register.

I've never had to aim I just guesstimate where I'd be shooting and just shoot.

Sometimes I'll calibrate the gun resting on my legs and I'd play from there so my arms don't get tired.
Seems to work really well most of the time

A decent light gun with recoil can feel oddly heavy after a while. It's one of the reason why I like to use my Terraburst recoil rifle (converted to guncon 2). I find the two handed rifle easier on my arms.

You definitely have to aim on GC2 and GC1 games though. If not, you're standing too close.

You talking about recoil? I've never ventured that far unfortunately. Would be need to feel a bit of vibration when shooting but I'll make due with what I have.

I'm mostly sitting down on my couch when I play lightgun games. Then again the CRT I use range from 14inch to 24inch.

If I'm sitting too close then... whatever
Like back in the days when I was playing Duck Hunt on the NES muhahahha

real guns get even heavier, hit the gym

Proper recoil is a must for me. It makes light gun games feel way more arcade-like. Without it, it feels like I am using an orange gun-shaped mouse.

Those little dual shock style vibration motors are a poor substitute to the solenoid or linear motion knocker motors found in arcade guns.

Maybe this will be of interest to Dreamcast owners with flatscreen displays:

http://www.dreammods.net/lightconn.html

I'm old school CRT

Tool cool for LCD Panels sorry

Me too, usually, but given what people have said about the poor accuracy of Dreamcast light guns, I'd be curious how that IR gun performs by comparison. A poor quality light gun is as bad as a low quality IR gun imo.

House of the Dead is really the only Dreamcast light gun game worth playing and the original arcade did not use a real light gun. It used a ccd / IR gun like most Sega arcade shooters. I just wish someone would make a decent home IR gun. The arcade versions all use 10 or 12 sensors positioned around the bezel instead of the 1 - 4 sensors used by home versions.

I bet someone with programming and minor electronics skills could rewrite the firmware on an Aimtrak to make it triangulate off 10 sensors like the arcade guns. And, replace the poor quality camera with one from the Terminator Salvation arcade.

I've been wanting to get some Guncon2s for a while now, but the main TV I would want to use them on is a late model 480p Japanese Trinitron. PS2 has to be deinterlaced on this TV and while it does a pretty good job, does that mean light guns are a no go?
Playing on my PVM 1454 would be fine for just me but it's too small for multiplayer.

You forgetting the piss poor port of Virtua Cop 2 and Confidential Mission?

Both very enjoyable games!

I could never get into Confidential Mission at all myself, either. Have to agree only HotD is worthy on this platform.

I've always loved Virtual Cop 2 in the arcades. The Saturn version was so disappointing but the Dreamcast version was acceptable.

I'd rather be able to play the game in an acceptable way than not at all.

Virtua Cop 1 and 2 are best played on the PS2 with a Guncon 2 and therefore not worth playing on a Dreamcast.

I never found Confidential mission to be a particularly enjoyable game. At least not one that is worth investing in hardware for. For anything that was released on Naomi, I would first try it on a Naomi emulator with a Guncon 2 or Act Labs light gun.

I own a Dreamcast and I'm an huge light gun fan but the lack of a decent gun on the system makes me want to look for alternate options. As HOD 2 is unlockable on HOD 3 on the original Xbox, it's hard to find reasons to change my mind. Oddly, the original Xbox has some decent guns which is strange as it has so few light gun games.

Even Virtua Cop 3 arcade, which can be played on an original Xbox with a ram upgrade, is not compatible with Xbox light guns (except the EMS Topgun 3 IR gun).

Light guns don't work on TV's that upscale the image. The image doesn't have to be 15khz. The image on screen has to be the same res as the one being output by the console.

So, ditch that HD Trinitron and grab an older 15khz only model while you still can. Or, better yet, buy a new tri-sync CRT arcade monitor which is capable of 240p, 480i, 384p and 480p without upscaling anything.

Good to know. I have a 14" Sony PVM and a 20" Ikegami (which is temperamental). I would love to get a matching Trinitron for SD content since lots of the Japanese ones where I live have RGB input, but I don't think it's in the cards for me right now sadly.
Also, not ditching the 480p Trinitron that's my Wii/GCN monitor.

That's why I like my tri-sync arcade monitor. It allows me to play every classic game in the correct res with no image processing of any kind.

I like owning my Ikegami. The image is amazing to see but, most of the time, arcade games benefit more from a larger screen than a technically excellent smaller one. Light gun games and racers in particular just don't look right on a tiny screen.

If it were me, I'd sell the 14" PVM and grab a 29" RGB Trinitton TV.

To update: the official Japan Dreamcast light gun came (complete in box, think it was new) and it's STILL just as shaky as the others. Maybe a little less (still bad) but that's probably my imagination. Ran it through all the multiple tests/scenarios/cables/CRT's I could per usual.

To recap (since people commonly skip to the end of topics), my conclusion is the Dreamcast light guns, no matter what your setup is comprised of, are NOT accurate at all, and certainly MUCH less accurate than everything from the NES Zapper, to the Konami Justifier, to the gold standard Guncon 2. I'll again recap everything I tried:


PROBLEM:
Dreamcast light guns are inaccurate compared to any other console's light guns. Can't calibrate easily - most commonly bottom right target. Once calibrated (if can hit both targets), crosshair cursor jumps all around the place (different than where you're aiming). Even in-game, when you hold the gun perfectly steady and aim at the same place and fire multiple shots those shots jump all over the place - maybe 1/2" to almost 1" on a larger 20-32" CRT - this makes you miss shots. Even skipping the calibration has similar effects in-game.

Light guns:
--3x Mad Catz Dream Blaster (1x brand new, 2x same revision)
--1x Starfire (new)
--1x official JP Sega (new)

Consoles:
--2x 'Circle 1' Dreamcasts (one might have been Circle 0, have to double-check)
----1x is original, 1x has a recent clone GDEMU with correct crystal.
1x Circle 2, stock (not GDEMU compatible)

Mediums:
--Real discs of several games
--Burned discs (Verbatim DataLifePlus burned at 4x)
--Clone GDEMU (have tried TOSEC's and Redumps rips)
--tried NTSC for NTSC light guns, tried Japan for JP official Sega-made light gun

Connection methods/Cables **tried in 480p AND 480i, where applicable**:
--BeharBros Toro via VGA/RGBHV
--Toro via RGBS sync dipswitch turned on over VGA
--Toro RGBS over SCART
--Toro via RGBHV with Extron RGB (203Rxi and 580xi) merging RGBHV sync to RGBS, & trying SERR and DDSP dipswitches
------all of the above tried both direct to CRT's, and tried through Extron Crosspoint Switcher
--Official Sega Composite cables
--Retrobit (plain old VGA) cable


CRT Monitors: (multiformats tried in 480p and 480i, SD's tried in 480i only of course)
**Tried with brightness normal, brightness turned up a bit, brightness jacked up WAY too high....
**Tried in dark room w/ no lights, regular lighting (both incandescent, and new LED 60w bulbs), natural sunlight
**on Pro monitors tried in underscan mode as well (to try to limit bottom-right calibration issue)
**these are a mix of Flat screen, Trinitron (curved only in 1 direction), and completely curved CRT's, FYI.
**by saying "multiformat", when trying VGA/~640x480 progressive scan, these CRT's do NOT up or downscale the signal, it's native

• Panasonic multiformat DT-M3050W – RGBHV/VGA, RGBS via VGA and SCART, RGBHV via Toro; Retrobit direct VGA, & Retrobit w/Extron RGB to merge sync to RGBS
• Sony PVM-D20F1U, Toro RGBS, and Toro RGBHV>Extron RGB>RGBS, RetroBit VGA>Extron RGB>RGBS
• Sony PVM-20L5 (same connection methods as above + Composite cable too)

• Sony CPD-520GS PC CRT Monitor (VGA via Toro and VGA via Retrobit)
• NEC NEC FP2141SB (2070SB/LaCie Blue IV rebrand) PC CRT Monitor (same as above)

• Sony PVM-20M4/3230/20M2, RGBS via Toro direct (VGA and SCART connector), Toro RGBHV>Extron RGB>RGBS
• Sony (consumer) FV-27FV310 via above connection types + Shinybow SB-2840 RGBS>YPbPr/Component converter (works on ALL other light gun consoles both direct and through Crosspoint)
• Random other consumer CRT's via composite.

Games tried:
Confidential Mission, Death Crimson 2, Death Crimson OX, House of the Dead 2, Virtua Cop 2 (Both NTSC and JP for most)
---tried WITH doing in-game calibration, and by skipping calibration as well


^^^ Also spending the time to recap and write the above because I've gotten so many "It works/worked fine for me" posts here and at other groups... So either these people just don't notice the guns being accurate, or they somehow have special hardware different than the multitudes I've tested. Also had quite a few people try the calibration (which many never do) and not being able to easily hit the bottom right target just like me, and others even sent me videos of the shaky crosshairs on the calibration screen + in-game shooting at the same spot and it's hitting all around it (so at least I know it's not me 100%).


Recourse/Workarounds:
Play House of the Dead 2 on OG Xbox (have to beat HotD 3 to unlock 2) - 480i
Death Crimson OX+ can be played on PS2 (JP-Only version, I haven't played through to see if the "OX+" is 100% the same as "OX") - 480i
Virtua Cop 2 can be played on PS2 or Sega Saturn - 480i
---so yes, we do miss out on 480p with all the above which is a real shame...

And we still have to live with Confidential Mission and Death Crimson 2 only being available for Dreamcast with its sucky light guns...

I experienced the same issue with every light gun I ever tried except the official Namco Guncon 2. I made some small progress in understanding why the issue occurs but fixing it is a different matter.....

First off, I now know it has nothing to do with the console, the software or how the gun takes a sync signal, or the shape of the crt. It happens on the ps2 with Guncon 2 games with 3rd party guns which take direct sync, just like the official GC2. It has nothing to do with brightness either.

Based on my experiments, I am 95% sure it is a power related issue. It happens on the Time Crisis arcade guns even when connected to an official GC2 PCB. The TC arcade guns use the same sensor as the official GC2 so, the only difference is the distance between the sensor and the I/O pcb. I found the problem gets progressively worse as distance increases.

3rd party guns usually have the sensor on the pcb like the official GC2 so they must be getting a reduced signal strength in some other way. Given the age of the hardware being discussed, the most likely source of the problem is aging caps. Doesn't explain why official unmodded Namco guns remain accurate though.

I find it hard to believe that companies like Sega would have put out a product that performed so poorly when new. Aging caps might explain why some people report better experiences. Like batteries, caps don't all fail at the same time.

So, we need somebody who is good with electronics to try replacing caps to see if it stabilizes the crosshairs.

As a side note, issues with screen brightness or not enough light getting to the gun, manifest as crosshairs not reaching the edge of the screen and / or shots not registering. This is an even bigger problem with 3rd party guns for me than shaky crosshairs.

My TC arcade gun registers every shot and is accurate. The slight shake with the crosshairs on the calibration screen doesn't seem to effect in-game accuracy. The glass lens used in arcade guns is approx 20-30% better than the plastic lens in home guns , which helps.

I did notice most of your test CRTs are Sony. I've always had particularly bad results with lightguns on aperture grille displays. They seem to really thrive on slot mask.

There might be something to your Sony theory. I had zero problems with the DC guns back in the day across several types of round-tube sets. They certainly seemed more accurate than the old NES Zapper, for what it's worth. Nowadays, my retro setup consists only of a very nice Trinitron.. and I have unfortunately run into some light gun issues I never had before and can't really explain. Not with the DC guns specifically, but I too have wondered if the Trinitron design gets in the way.