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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 8:53 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 520
If this will output the exact timings of the two clone consoles (and any future ones) that would be quite nice even if it doesn't work with anything else. So far we can only really get the real timings with the Mister+I/O board (not 100% sure on this one).


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2019 10:26 pm 


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Maybe it will be able to adjust centering and size? So on-the-fly overscan adjustment?


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:09 pm 


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The switch is used to toggle between Pal/NTSC according to this vid put out by SmokeMonster.

Image

I guess there's no downscaling going on with this DAC. Would this be powerful enough to do centring/size, frame buffer for 240p/480i switching and downscaling with a hypothetical custom firmware assuming that you could flash to it (the USB port)?


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Fri Aug 09, 2019 5:10 pm 


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Gunstar wrote:
The switch is used to toggle between Pal/NTSC according to this vid put out by SmokeMonster.


Thanks.

He also released a video announcing that jailbreak are released:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAVpVuguuyk


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 9:54 am 



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So will this be able to give a downscaled 240p (or whatever the original source was) scart rgb out, or will this be vga out at the scaled hdmi resolutions?
Like can this be connected to a PVM somehow?


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 10:03 am 


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Elrinth wrote:
So will this be able to give a downscaled 240p (or whatever the original source was) scart rgb out, or will this be vga out at the scaled hdmi resolutions?


SmokeMonster explained in his video that you can get Composite, S-Video, YPbPr and RGB (RGB CSYNC, RGsB etc).


Elrinth wrote:
Like can this be connected to a PVM somehow?


In the video SmokeMonster has it hooked on a Sony PVM.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 2:49 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 520
Will be interesting to see how the FPGA-encoded composite and S-video look like, they will obviously be different from what the original consoles do, especially the Mega Drive which, especially on the earlier MBs, has very "unique" rainbowing. The dithering smudging will probably look a bit different too.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:30 pm 



Joined: 02 May 2017
Posts: 40
What is this magic?? a downscaler?? does it output 240p because it "makes" the console output 240p or does it downscale from 1080p/480p???


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:44 pm 



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naz wrote:
What is this magic?? a downscaler?? does it output 240p because it "makes" the console output 240p or does it downscale from 1080p/480p???


Looks like it's been addressed already. The console outputs 240p/the original signal in RGB digital, and this unit either converts it to RGB analogue (with two choices of sync type) or transcodes it to YPbPr, Y/C, or composite video.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:26 pm 


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interest can't be this high.

5 days since the new firmwares for the Super Nt and Mega SG have been released and I haven't seen a single test with the new 240p output mode using any generic DAC.

Or is there a lock that requires both pieces of hardware?

Does anybody know what Smokemonster has connected to the front USB port of the DAC on his Lightgun video?


Image


Last edited by Fudoh on Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:31 pm 


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Power supply -> DAC -> Super Nt/Mega Sg.

It's disappointing that the Super Nt/Mega Sg can't supply enough power to the DAC over the HDMI output. Surely the possibility of the DAC was known at the time of the development of those consoles, which would have been a good reason to support enough current over the HDMI output.


Last edited by Guspaz on Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:32 pm 


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ok, makes sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:48 pm 


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I'll get one of these if it's not too expensive (afterall you can't use it for anything else but change HDMI to analog for the Super Nt and Mega Sg) together with a Mega Sg (pretty much just for Game Gear and Master System FM Sound support).

Just out of curiosity, did any of the new firmwares ever fix the issues with the Super Nt?


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:56 pm 


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They fixed several things, you'll need to be more specific.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:40 pm 


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Guspaz wrote:
They fixed several things, you'll need to be more specific.


I think it was an issue related to color? I think the Nt Mini had/has the exact same issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:04 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Now that I think about it, what's the argument for a CRT user to use one of these two Analogue consoles and this DAC instead of thes real thing?

I guess a better argument for it will be to be used with the upcoming Analogue 8 which will be a NES clone that only outputs digital as well, and in that case it would save CRT users the cost of a NESRGB kit and installation.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:14 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Now that I think about it, what's the argument for a CRT user to use one of these two Analogue consoles and this DAC instead of thes real thing?


Cheaper and easier to get without a need for an RGB Bypass and Triple Bypass? I don't like emulation/simulation, this is why I have the original consoles, however I am interested in GG games (you can't play GG games on a Genesis) and I want to play them in 15Khz on a CRT.


Last edited by Lawfer on Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Now that I think about it, what's the argument for a CRT user to use one of these two Analogue consoles and this DAC instead of thes real thing?


Cheaper and easier to get without a need for an RGB bypass or a Triple Bypass? I don't like emulation/simulation, this is why I have the original consoles, however I am interested in GG games (you can't play GG games on a Genesis) and I want to play them in 15Khz on a CRT.

It would also save you a chunk of money on cable expenses as well, because it's far cheaper and easier to source DE-15-to-BNC and DE-15-to-RCA cables than it is to adapt SCART or buy a boutique, console-specific cable and an RGB->YPbPr converter.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:47 pm 


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Super Nt advantages over real hardware:

- Built-in flashcart that supports everything except SuperFX and SA-1 games (Super Everdrive is $90 and the Super Nt costs the same as the SD2SNES)
- Built-in Game Genie
- If not using the DAC, better compatibility with HDTVs than a real SNES using the OSSC due to 60Hz mode, if using the DAC, can be used on high resolution CRTs like PC monitors for HD zero-lag display
- Various extra features, like 64-sprite limit setting, built-in support for both NTSC and PAL games
- Includes Super Turrican Director's Cut, which AFAIK cannot be obtained elsewhere

If all you care about is playing your original cartridges on a CRT and don't care at all about video quality, a real SNES is a bit cheaper. But even just a real SNES and an Everdrive cost more than the Super Nt, let alone the cost of an SD2SNES Pro or OSSC if you're wanting to do stuff like that.

The same advantages largely apply to the Mega Sg, except that you're solving the audio lottery (good sound without having to hunt for specific motherboard revisions) and are also getting the ability to play games from a bunch of other platforms like the Master System, Game Gear, Colecovision, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:55 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
fernan1234 wrote:
Now that I think about it, what's the argument for a CRT user to use one of these two Analogue consoles and this DAC instead of thes real thing?


Cheaper and easier to get without a need for an RGB bypass or a Triple Bypass? I don't like emulation/simulation, this is why I have the original consoles, however I am interested in GG games (you can't play GG games on a Genesis) and I want to play them in 15Khz on a CRT.

It would also save you a chunk of money on cable expenses as well, because it's far cheaper and easier to source DE-15-to-BNC and DE-15-to-RCA cables than it is to adapt SCART or buy a boutique, console-specific cable and an RGB->YPbPr converter.


You don't need to use SCART on original hardware, as a matter of fact I replaced all of my official cables with Retro Access BNC cables.


Guspaz wrote:
If all you care about is playing your original cartridges on a CRT and don't care at all about video quality, a real SNES is a bit cheaper.


But if you care about video quality:

1CHIP console + RGB Bypass + SD2SNES + SD Card

vs

Super Nt + SD Card.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:41 pm 


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A real SNES in good condition with the power adapter included is not exactly free ($70-100 USD), and that RetroAccess BNC SNES cable costs $55 USD, and won't work on a consumer CRT. If you're trying for something better quality than composite or s-video on a consumer CRT, you'd need something like the HDRV cables ($63 USD) In either case, you're getting close to the Super Nt pricepoint before you even include the cost of a flashcart. Of course, we have no idea how much the DAC will cost, but the Monoprice VGA-to-YPbPr adapter that Analogue recommends is $2... or if you want a 12 foot cable, $3.

In fact, you can buy all the possible Analogue DAC adapters from Monoprice (getting you YPbPr, RGBS, RGBHV, S-Video, and composite) for a total of $10.21 USD.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:53 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
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Guspaz wrote:
Super Nt advantages over real hardware:

- Built-in flashcart that supports everything except SuperFX and SA-1 games (Super Everdrive is $90 and the Super Nt costs the same as the SD2SNES)
- Built-in Game Genie
- If not using the DAC, better compatibility with HDTVs than a real SNES using the OSSC due to 60Hz mode, if using the DAC, can be used on high resolution CRTs like PC monitors for HD zero-lag display
- Various extra features, like 64-sprite limit setting, built-in support for both NTSC and PAL games
- Includes Super Turrican Director's Cut, which AFAIK cannot be obtained elsewhere

If all you care about is playing your original cartridges on a CRT and don't care at all about video quality, a real SNES is a bit cheaper.


Well I meant specifically for CRT users. Digital display only users can definitely gain/save from one of these, but for CRT users...

-Without SFX and SA-1 support you'll still want the SD2SNES (the SD2SNES, and not only the pro, also gives you mostly working save states on non-special chip games if you use that unofficial firmware).
-The SD2SNES will give this to you too.
-Not relevant since the question is about CRT use.
-The flashcart supports both NTSC and PAL too, the sprite limit thing is neat I guess. Maybe the Pro flashcart will support this?
-Most people can live without this game, and I'd bet there's a ROM dump of it already if you look for it anyway.

Now on to video quality, I guess we'll have to see how visually the SNt+DAC compares to a 1chip/mini/jr with RGB output (and modding a mini/jr for RGB can be extremely cheap). I'd imagine they'd look nearly identical.

And then of course when it comes to the downsides of the FPGA clone, there will always be little things that don't run quite the same as the original (oh, and for 1chips you can fix their own couple of "clone" quirks with SD2SNES settings).

Similar argument for the Mega Drive. Getting good sound is not a lottery, it's easy to tell which consoles have the good boards. And fixing jailbars is simply a matter of yanking a pin off the CXA (or lifting one from the video encoder). The triple bypass stuff is totally unnecessary unless you're obsessed about getting good video and sound from one of the bad boards instead of simply getting one of the good ones (anything from VA02 to 06 for Mega Drives, and most Genesis model 1 consoles).

Cables is another spot where you could add in the savings I guess, depending on the kind of setup you have already. The fortaflex cables are lower cost and should be good for pretty much everyone though.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:07 pm 


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- The SD2SNES has been discontinued, only the SD2SNES Pro is available/produced. And so you will be paying $200 extra just to get SA-1 and SuperFX games. You're almost better off just buying the SA-1 and SuperFX games that you want.

- Yes, at an extra $200 on top of the cost of the Super Nt or SNES/cabling.

- Relevant since there are people who want to use CRTs that support 480p+, because a computer CRT monitor (or an L5 PVM, or a BVM) is a good way to get high quality with zero-lag.

- The flash cart won't let you play NTSC and PAL cartridges, you have to be willing to accept ROM-only. The sprite limit is a SNES hardware limitation and the Pro flashcart can't help with that. The Super Nt also has higher quality audio output than a real SNES unless you install the spdif mod in the SNES, but then that's additional cost/effort.

- I doubt there is a ROM dump of it because AFAIK the only copy distributed to the public is inside the encrypted Super Nt firmware file.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:26 pm 



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I'm sure you'll be easily able to find a regular SD2SNES on second hand markets for the original price or less now that the Pro is out, so that's not an issue. At this point anyone who cares about the SNES has one of these already anyway.

While I do have a multiformat CRT I don't see why I'd ever want to go out of my way to use a 240p system on an upscaled resolution, but maybe to some people's eyes it looks good?

Digital sound is nice maybe? Though I imagine most people end up converting their audio output to analogue at some point anyway.

The argument I feel is even weaker for the MD clone (and simulated sound will never be the same unless they put in an actual YM2612 in there some day).

Yeah I guess no Turrican is a big loss though.

Again, once the new NES clone comes out I think there'll be a better argument for the DAC as an alternative to a NESRGB.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:20 pm 


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Multiformat CRTs are probably cheaper/easier to find/less bulky than CRT TVs at this point... You can probably find lots of PC CRTs at surplus PC shops still. Via the DAC and/or OSSC they also would support a wider variety of content, from the 240p consoles linedoubled, to the PS3/360/WiiU, all without any lag.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:36 pm 



Joined: 05 Dec 2012
Posts: 454
Fudoh wrote:
Or is there a lock that requires both pieces of hardware?

I would assume Kevin implemented some kind of EDID auto-switch feature, so for any passthrough adapter to work, you'd have to spoof the same EDID. I'm not really sure how to do that, but if it's easy I can try. Can't spent too much time on it...I barely have time to get the podcast out this week.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:38 pm 



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...and that's even assuming it's possible. I have a feeling this board does a lot more than just convert digital to analog.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 10:59 am 


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fernan1234 wrote:
I'm sure you'll be easily able to find a regular SD2SNES on second hand markets for the original price or less now that the Pro is out, so that's not an issue. At this point anyone who cares about the SNES has one of these already anyway....


Actually I've been trying to get an original SD2SNES 2nd hand for a while in the UK now, going forward with the same presumption... The reality is everything left on Ebay goes for higher price than me buying a brand new SD2SNES Pro... I guess because its no longer in production but either way, its crazy :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:07 pm 



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Well that's silly. I guess all those new collectors will want that cool OG SD2SNES! Anyway, how much more expensive is the pro than the original was? Can't be that different so just get the pro.


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 Post subject: Re: Analouge's DAC - Beta going out
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:33 pm 


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Its actually cheaper to get the Pro version and you will have supposedly better guarantee/peace of mind that it won't be a fake/clone.. So yes I will most likely just have to get the Pro one since the original rev is nowhere to be found for reasonable price. Wish they would just hurry up with the GameGenie support via on screen menu, that's the one thing that would make it a perfect flash cartridge imo. Anyways, enough with the offtopic :mrgreen:


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