Looking to buy a 4KTV

[Guspaz]

There's a ton of benefit to *shooting* in 8K from a production standpoint (through reframing if nothing else), and there are some use cases where 8K displays are a huge improvement over 4K but still not enough. VR headsets, the sweet spot is probably somewhere between 8K and 16K (At least 60 pixels per degree is where you want to be). Looking Glass displays, since you're dividing the resolution among many perspectives, even 32K wouldn't be high enough (the current display divides an 8K panel into 45 distinct images).

But for use as a television? Yeah, 8K is pointless.

[bobrocks95]

I just don't feel like any of that will stop TV manufacturers from pushing it anyway. We'll reach the point where 8K panel production is close enough in cost to 4K panel production that they'll do it just because they can. At least to the point where the remaining 4K TVs are the budget options and undesirable. It may take a long time but it seems inevitable to me.

[RIP-Felix]

I originally had a TCL and thought that, because it was inexpensive, I needed an upgrade. I was worried about burn in and bought a highly touted VIZIO instead. It was a mistake and I rectified it about 6 months later when I got a B9. The issue was the resolutions it wouldn't accept (960p or 1200p), that was important to me for the OSSC. Also compared to the TCL, there really wasn't much of an upgrade. On the other hand, the OLED was. The B9 accepts all of the OSSC resolutions I've tried. The HDMI2.1 support is very nice to have, future proofing wise. I don't currently have a GSYNC/FreeSYNC compatable graphics card, but that's a very compelling feature it supports. IMO this is the best TV you can buy and the only reason you should consider buying something else is if you cannot affor it or you will use it extensively as a PC monitor...

I have been doing alot of video editing on it since the coronavirus outbreak, that's how my job shifted to home. I have not had any issues with burn in, mainly because of its aggressive burn in reduction features (which can't be turned off BTW). They are quite annoying in this use case. Namely, it will lower the brightness/backlight(OLED light) so much it's hard to read. Then, when something changes, the brightness will suddenly pop back up, almost blinding me. Just happened as I was typing this, in fact. It does occur in games too, if the screen stays static for a period of time, but the moment you unpause or resume movement it comes back. Since the content on screen changes more frequently in games, movies and TV, it's a rare occurrence and doesn't detract from the experience. But as a PC monitor, yes...it does detract from the experience - except when watching videos or playing games.

I've had 2 TCL TVs and they are both surprisingly good. Very low lag, accepts OSSC resolutions no problem, and they are a ROKU. This is by far the best smart TV experience, IMO. I hooked in a Roku ultimate to my OLED and the CEC takes over, basically turning it into the same thing, but I still have to rummage through TV settings. With TCL the TV settings blend in perfectly with the Roku experience. It's seamless on 1 remote. However, OLED is really the only thing I would consider an "upgrade". I would consider LED/LCD TVs more of a lateral step towards the features you want. Before it died, I liked my Plasma better. LED didn't measure up, even at 4k. OLED is the closest thing since.

MicroLED might dethrone OLED, but that's still a ways off.

[excalibur]

I had some bad luck with my 4K TVs i ended with and am back to my old LG 47 inch 1080p 3DTV again still looking for a 4KTV, i first got a 55 inch Samsung Q80T and had to send it back due to panel / screen issues, then i got a 55 inch Sony X950H and had to return it mostly due to compatibility issues but it had some smaller issues too, now i'm considering just going back with something LG because, my current LG (i purchased it in late 2012) has lasted me for 8+ years with no issues and LG TVs seem to be good compatibility wise with game consoles both new and old, PCs and devices like the OSSC. I'm now looking primarily at LG's best 55 inch 4K LCD, the LG Nano 90 and the 55 inch LG CX OLED as my main options, both have their upsides and downsides, I'm still looking around but those are what i'm considering now, after dealing with some issues from other TVs. I'll list some of the pros and cons of each TV, but I'd like to hear any opinions and any experiences anyone has had with either of these TVs, or any other TVs worth consideration.

My main usage fir this TV is gaming, but i do watch TV and movies too, one of my biggest concerns with the OLED is screen burn / uneven pixel wear, as its a cumulative thing that adds up, so 100 hours with something on the screen is still 100 hours, no matter how much you vary your content in between sessions, and as a baseball fan, i do have a tendency to play some games like MLB The Show a lot, with its static scoreboards and i buy the new version every year, so in the course of say 5 years, that would be a lot of hours, just with that, and then there is the amount of hours of 4:3 content, which is what most retro gaming is, this doesn't account for any static logos on TV channels, so i think there is a legitimate concern for screen burn, but there is also a desire to have the picture quality that OLED has, its a huge temptation, and i suspect, the Nano 90 with its IPS panel and the shortcomings that brings,would be a huge downgrade from that overall. The Nano 90 is also much cheaper in price and has no screen burn issues and i would assume would be a bit better in bright rooms, like mine typically is most of the time, but i hear the OLED can hold up decently in a bright room, but a dark room is where it shines best, both TVs have good viewing angles but the OLED is better in that regard. Overall I'm torn on what to do, i just know I'm ready to get a 4KTV and am tired of having issues and having to return them.

[nmalinoski]

With the current TCL 6-series TVs having gone up a couple hundred dollars in price compared to previous iterations (probably because of the QLED stuff), are those still the go-to budget 4K displays, or does the 5-series hold that crown now? Is the 5-series equivalent to what the 6-series (and the P-series before it) used to be?

...am back to my old LG 47 inch 1080p 3DTV...

Don't get rid of it; you can't get 3D displays anymore.

[excalibur]

With the current TCL 6-series TVs having gone up a couple hundred dollars in price compared to previous iterations (probably because of the QLED stuff), are those still the go-to budget 4K displays, or does the 5-series hold that crown now? Is the 5-series equivalent to what the 6-series (and the P-series before it) used to be?

...am back to my old LG 47 inch 1080p 3DTV...

Don't get rid of it; you can't get 3D displays anymore.

TCL is an interesting one for me because i hear about some of the QC issues they have, but i also hear they are a good budget option if you can get a quality panel.

As for my current 1080P 3DTV, i have no intentions of getting rid of it, it will go in another room, it has been a solid TV even if the 3D mode doesn't really get much use nowadays, it makes a good backup option if i get another clunker of a 4KTV, which i hope i don't but it has been moved back and forth now a couple times for that reason. I was looking at the number of screen on hours my current TV has, it has over 16000 hours of screen on time in 8+ years. I seriously doubt any TV i get now will last like that.

[excalibur]

I forgot to update this thread, but thanks for all the opinions guys.

I got tired of of all the issues i was having with LCDs i had previously had and went ahead and got the LG C1 OLED, purchased it almost a month ago now, and it''s pretty amazing i must say, best TV I've ever owned, as for the burn in concerns, well I've accepted that as a possibility and will be and have been using the TV pretty much like any other TV, i don't really worry about burn in, i take only a few precautions like not leaving the TV on when not in use, and turning on the burn in prevention settings in the TV, ect, otherwise i watch or play whatever i want, time will tell if i'll have issues, but if i can get at least 5 years out of it like that, i'll be happy.

[ldeveraux]

I forgot to update this thread, but thanks for all the opinions guys.

I got tired of of all the issues i was having with LCDs i had previously had and went ahead and got the LG C1 OLED, purchased it almost a month ago now, and it''s pretty amazing i must say, best TV I've ever owned, as for the burn in concerns, well I've accepted that as a possibility and will be and have been using the TV pretty much like any other TV, i don't really worry about burn in, i take only a few precautions like not leaving the TV on when not in use, and turning on the burn in prevention settings in the TV, ect, otherwise i watch or play whatever i want, time will tell if i'll have issues, but if i can get at least 5 years out of it like that, i'll be happy.

Can you tell which model you bought?

[dojima]

He said he got an LG C1 OLED.

[Taiyaki]

For gaming I'd think the Sony A90J would be the best pick due to the heatsink. Make sure to dial back the brightness by turning the oled light off and you probably don't have to worry about burn in with classic consoles.

[Guspaz]

The A90J is a much worse choice for gaming relative to the LG G1 (the A90J is not competing with the C1):

- The A90J lacks VRR support
- The A90J has half as many (2 vs 4) HDMI 2.1 ports, when there are three HDMI 2.1 capable gaming devices out there (XBS/PS5/PC)
- The A90J has 3x the latency, though this is only +10ms
- The A90J lacks 1440p support (forced 60Hz only)
- The A90J does not support auto low latency mode
- The A90J has HDR banding issues in some games

On the other hand, the A90J has better colour accuracy and it does have the brightness advantages, making it a better choice for film content.

[fernan1234]

On the other hand, the A90J has better colour accuracy and it does have the brightness advantages, making it a better choice for film content.

That also makes it a better choice for SDR content, and thus also for upscaled retro gaming via an OSSC, etc (which TC mentioned as something he's looking for in a 4K TV purchase). For non-current-gen gaming, all of the other factors you listed are also irrelevant, with the exception of the lag difference, though I haven't seen anyone actually test 1080p or 720p @ 60Hz on both the A90J and the C1/G1 (both C1 and G1 perform identically in terms of picture quality and processing).

With that said, WOLED panels are weaker in general for SDR than LCD due to much lower SDR full screen nits (which is important especially when using both BFI and simulated scanlines) and ABL. WOLED is better for HDR, particularly in a dark room.

[ldeveraux]

He said he got an LG C1 OLED.

What part number? What size? what year? People keep saying get a C1, but I want to know specifically which C1 they got!

[excalibur]

He said he got an LG C1 OLED.

What part number? What size? what year? People keep saying get a C1, but I want to know specifically which C1 they got!

The C1 is this year's model in the C series LG OLEDs. I got the 55 inch version the exact model number is "OLED55C1PUB", i purchased it from Amazon (link below).

https://www.amazon.com/LG-OLED55C1PUB-A ... 493&sr=8-3

----

As for why i went with the LG over the Sony, there are a number of reasons, one was i had a bad experience with a Sony LCD just prior to deciding to go OLED, and my previous TV of 9 years was an LG and had no issues, plus having 4 HDMI 2.1 ports was important, along with the other gaming focused features / advantages and the cost difference at the time too, the brightness seems good to me, i even turned it down a bit from it's ootb default for SDR content, HDR naturally stays maxed out, I've had zero issues so far and everything looks about as good as it can, 4k HDR content looks amazing, on PS5 / XSX, my PCis a few years old now, and needs an upgrade to really play anything in 4K, but i will be doing that at some point soon i'd imagine, the only thing of concern is the long term, but I've accepted the possibility i might have issues down the line (or i might not). I'll just enjoy the TV in the meantime.

[dojima]

Yeah, it's very hard to recommend anything other than LG OLEDs right now. The prices have come down, they've increased the number of screen sizes, and their TVs are the only ones that consistently have all the features and implement them correctly. Assuming a person's fine with the potential for image retention or plans regular upgrades anyway, there's no reason to get anything else.

[Konsolkongen]

Image retention disappears after a little while, even some LCDs are susceptible to this. Burn-in is permanent.

It shouldn’t be an issue provided you vary the content a little, like most people do anyway.

The whole burn-in worry with OLED TVs is blown way out of proportion. The manufacturers are aware of the risk and have implemented several anti burn-in protection measures, most of which are running automatically without the need of any user action required.
We are no where near the burn-in risk that was associated with plasma TVs. Those were many, many, many more times likely to burn-in.

That being said I wonder how much of an issue burn-in will be on the OLED Switch. I cannot imagine that Nintendo has implemented any form of burn prevention on that thing. They usually don’t put too much thought into their hardware.

[Guspaz]

He said he got an LG C1 OLED.

What part number? What size? what year? People keep saying get a C1, but I want to know specifically which C1 they got!

LG's OLED model numbers guide:

OLED77C1AUB
AAAABBCDEEE

A = OLED = Product line (LG OLED TVs)
B = 77 = Display size in diagonal inches
C = C = Model/tier (A is cheapest, Z is most expensive, C is most common as a sweet spot)
D = 1 = Year (last digit of 4-digit year, with X=0, so the C1 is 2021, the CX is 2020, the C9 is 2019, etc)
E = AUB = Region/store, can be ignored as the TVs are physically identical in all regions/stores. Only affects packaging and smart TV stuff.

So when somebody tells you it's a C1, you know everything about the TV there is to know other than the size.

[Guspaz]

On the other hand, the A90J has better colour accuracy and it does have the brightness advantages, making it a better choice for film content.

That also makes it a better choice for SDR content, and thus also for upscaled retro gaming via an OSSC, etc (which TC mentioned as something he's looking for in a 4K TV purchase).

I run my LCD monitor at 150nit. Both TVs can do above that for sustained 100% window. For SDR content, the GL G1 is brighter for all peak measurements (significantly so for some of them), significantly lower for sustained 2-25% windows, and very slightly lower for 50-100% windows. The LG also has a less agressive ABL than the Sony. When you take all this together, the result is that you can't say that one is brighter than the other, because in some scenes (retro or otherwise) the LG will be much brighter, and in some scenes the Sony will be much brighter.

For non-current-gen gaming, all of the other factors you listed are also irrelevant, with the exception of the lag difference, though I haven't seen anyone actually test 1080p or 720p @ 60Hz on both the A90J and the C1/G1 (both C1 and G1 perform identically in terms of picture quality and processing).

The G1 is brighter than the C1, and the Sony is priced to compete with the G1 and not the C1. Sony has cheaper OLED models that are comparable to the C1.

1440p support is extremely relevant for retro gaming, as 1440p is the maximum resolution of next-gen retro scalers like the RT5X and Morph. For people who like the sharpest possible pixels on a 4K TV today, they need 1440p support. However, it may still work as the Sony is reported to accept 1440p from a PC via a custom resolution. That says to me that it probably will accept it from something like an RT5X, though it's not guaranteed.

With that said, WOLED panels are weaker in general for SDR than LCD due to much lower SDR full screen nits (which is important especially when using both BFI and simulated scanlines) and ABL. WOLED is better for HDR, particularly in a dark room.

It's not clear to me that BFI necessarily needs to represent much of a drop in brightness. Clearly it does, but it may not be as much as the duty cycle would indicate. Becaues brightness on OLED is lowest for sustained images, and BFI involves turning off the pixels, so it's no longer sustained. LG's 120Hz BFI also only turns the display off for something like 25% of the time. I don't think anybody has actually measured how BFI impacts the average brightness. It'd be an interesting test. Like, if the TV is off 50% of the time, but the image is 150% brighness, then the average brightness with BFI would be 75%. Hopefully somebody will test it.

[Konsolkongen]

...all of the other factors you listed are also irrelevant, with the exception of the lag difference, though I haven't seen anyone actually test 1080p or 720p @ 60Hz on both the A90J and the C1/G1 (both C1 and G1 perform identically in terms of picture quality and processing).

For what it's worth I tested all possible outputs from the OSSC using its built in lag tester on my CX.

I can't remember the reason why the lag tester on the OSSC shows much lower results than a Leo Bodnar. I took several measurements from the lower right corner each time but there were really not much deviation. All modes were approx. 4ms with the exception of 1920x1080p which was 5.5ms for some reason.

This applied to both game mode and PC mode using ISF professional.

480i passthrough in Game mode was 29ms and 121ms in all other modes. Looks like crap though.

For comparison here are the results from when I had an LG C7
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63745

[fernan1234]

The G1 is brighter than the C1

I don't think this is the case, but could be wrong. They both have the same new "Evo" panel, same processor, etc. It's also possible to install the G1 firmware on the C1 to "unlock" any differences that the G1 may have. They're literally the same TV except for better sound and a nicer look on the G1.

Clearly it does, but it may not be as much as the duty cycle would indicate. Becaues brightness on OLED is lowest for sustained images, and BFI involves turning off the pixels, so it's no longer sustained. LG's 120Hz BFI also only turns the display off for something like 25% of the time.

To get optimal results, you want the old 60Hz BFI which is the max setting on the new 120Hz panels, so that it can match the 60fps (or fraction) that traditional gaming targets. That will effectively halve the brightness, and if you use full simulated scanlines for a more CRT-like look, that's another 50% brightness drop on top, it won't be pretty. SDR on WOLED simply doesn't have enough nits overhead for this. Of course, a top of the line LCD that competes with these LG WOLEDs will have its own disadvantages, but they will have the upper hand on this one factor for sure.

[Konsolkongen]

The G1 is brighter than the C1

I don't think this is the case, but could be wrong. They both have the same new "Evo" panel, same processor, etc. It's also possible to install the G1 firmware on the C1 to "unlock" any differences that the G1 may have. They're literally the same TV except for better sound and a nicer look on the G1.

That's not recommended.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WHYRvwhDUE

[Guspaz]

The G1 is brighter than the C1

I don't think this is the case, but could be wrong. They both have the same new "Evo" panel, same processor, etc. It's also possible to install the G1 firmware on the C1 to "unlock" any differences that the G1 may have. They're literally the same TV except for better sound and a nicer look on the G1.

Most C1 do not have the EVO panel. Most C1 reviewers who checked did not get one. Even if you do get one, by default the EVO panel in the C1 will have its brightness and gamut calibrated to match the C1's normal panel and not the EVO panel.

Just to kind of summarize the worst-case scenario, here are the 100% sustained window and ABL figures for SDR:

LG A1: 116 nit, 0.069 ABL
LG C1: 131 nit, 0.070 ABL
LG G1: 161 nit, 0.056 ABL
A80J: 164 nit, 0.066 ABL
A90J: 185 nit, 0.059 ABL

Of course the other peak and sustained figures are quite different from this and the same relative positioning doesn't hold for those, but this is just to show that there are differences between the TVs.

Many things about the C1 and G1 are the same. The G1's form factor makes it a better fit for flush wall mounting since its average thickness is much less (it's got a uniform thickness over the entire display rather than the C1 that is super thin for the top half and rather thick for the bottom half). All the processing stuff is the same, yes. The panel (brightness and gamut and OOB accuracy) are the only differences that impact the image.

[fernan1234]

Many things about the C1 and G1 are the same. The G1's form factor makes it a better fit for flush wall mounting since its average thickness is much less (it's got a uniform thickness over the entire display rather than the C1 that is super thin for the top half and rather thick for the bottom half). All the processing stuff is the same, yes. The panel (brightness and gamut and OOB accuracy) are the only differences that impact the image.

I was under the impression that most C1 units had the new panel, and buying a new unit also makes it more likely since it probably doesn't make sense for LG Display to keep two separate production lines--at least that seems to be the prevailing assumption among people in the know. Anyone with a C1 can check if they have the new panel, in which case they can effectively transform it into a G1 by installing the G1 firmware. This should be possible to do at least until/if LG sends out a FW update that blocks this.

Either way, even 161 nits is pretty low--pathetic even--in particular when you take into account the effect of max BFI, which I keep bringing up as I consider it crucial for traditional console gaming (anything up to the PS4, really), and even more so the subjectively less crucial need for scanlines for scaled retro gaming.

[Konsolkongen]

As far as I can remember, from watching HDTVtest’s videos, LG Display have two different panel factories with minor differences in the panels. He mentioned specifically that panels from one factory are more likely to have faint horizontal lines that are most visible in very bright HDR scenes. So I definitely would not assume that LG is keeping it super simple by just having a single production line.

Also, you don’t install the G1 firmware. It’s a toggle in the service menu.

I would like to see some measurement results before and after toggling this setting. While not expertly calibrated from the factory, the mainboards are adjusted according to the specific panel. Something I learned the hard way when I had to get a replacement mainboard for my C7. The result was that the green color was severely lacking (around 10%) compared to the old one. I was able to correct this in the service menus calibration controls but colors were still slightly off meaning that there was visible errors in some test patterns. I think the color LUT would have had to be adjusted as well, something I had no chance of doing.

This was a worry of mine when the technician was here to replace the mainboard. I specifically asked if this would be a problem as I suspected that the technician would not be doing any calibration of the new mainboard to match the panel. He said that there was no such thing, but my measurements definitely proved him wrong. By swapping the mainboards the TV did work again, obviously, but it was now semi broken and would never achieve decent calibration results again.

Something to keep in mind for anyone having repairs done to their TV. Maybe Calman Home on the newer models would fix the color issues and thereby properly match the mainboard to the panel?

[fernan1234]

Also, you don’t install the G1 firmware. It’s a toggle in the service menu.

Yes you're right, I was mixing things up with the fact that after this toggle if you install a new FW it would have to be one for the G1. And another unknown factor is wether a future FW may mess things up if doing this C1 -> G1 thing.

And yeah the new Evo panels have more "venetian blinds effect" on some very bright HDR scenes, they also have a different color tinting when viewed off-axis compared to the older panels, but overall they are better panels for sure.

[Konsolkongen]

And yeah the new Evo panels have more "venetian blinds effect" on some very bright HDR scenes, they also have a different color tinting when viewed off-axis compared to the older panels, but overall they are better panels for sure.

Yes it does seem like they are. My CX has the venetian blind thing too, but it's never been an issue. My old C8 had it so bad that it was even visible in SDR. Watching a webpage scroll up and down made it very noticeable.

If the new panels have sorted out color tinting then it's a huge win. My CX has a very slight blue tint at the very bottom of the panel. This is pretty common for the series, so I didn't bother to replace the unit. It's otherwise extremely clean uniformity vise compared to my previous C7 and C8. It seems like they are making minor improvements to uniformity each year. Hopefully one day we can reach plasma-level uniformity