Denon x3400h OSSC 480i passthru problem

[DarkRoastChris]

Hello all. This is my first time posting here although I frequent this forum quite often looking for answers and info. However considering I have yet to find a solution to this problem I figured there's no time like the present to start a new topic and start posting.

I recently purchased a Denon avr x3400h to use with my OSSC after watching the My Life In Gaming 4k video. Try said that the receiver played very well with the OSSC which was the main reason why I purchased it. After setting up the receiver I fired up my PS2 slim going through the OSSC and into the receiver and set it 480i passthru mode.

Now here's the issue. When using this mode the picture becomes massively zoomed in with large alternating black horizontal bars and is completely unplayable. This does not happen when I have the OSSC running directly into my TV. However when I switch to 480i 4x (bob) while still running through the receiver the picture returns to normal. The picture quality in 480i passthru is much better than the 480i 4x (bob) mode so that's why I was trying to use this mode while having it run into the receiver as that would work wonders for my setup.

On a whim I actually decided to comment on the My Life In Gaming episode about the problem I'm having and was surprised when I got a very quick response from Try himself. He said that he actually had the same problem but forgot to mention it in the episode because he stopped using 480i passthru mode.

I've scoured the internet looking for even the slightest mention of this problem but alas I've had no luck. So now I'm extremely curious as to why this strange phenomenon is happening which is the reason for this topic. If anyone has any guesses or advice that would be most appreciated, or if you can direct me to the a similar topic that would be excellent.

Cheers.

[Fudoh]

I don't know the Denon, but what are you options for its HDMI inputs ? I guess you can again decide between passthrough and processing ? The default on the Denon should be to deinterlace an incoming 480i signal instead of passing it through to its output. Did you try both options ? Was your goal to have the TV deinterlace the 480i image or the receiver ?

When I watched the video back when it was released I honestly was a bit puzzled about why I would need full OSSC compatibility on an AV receiver. In the end it seemed that Try was just using the Denon as a HDMI splitter (at least for the OSSC).

[DarkRoastChris]

Thank you for the reply. My goal was to have my TV deinterlace the picture while using the receiver for the sound. I thought that the receiver might be doing some processing to the video signal but if it was then wouldn't that be across all resolutions? This strange effect only occurs when using the 480i passthru mode but switching to any other 480i mode keeps the picture looking normal but with worse picture quality due to the OSSC deinterlacing.

(Edit) I haven't been able to get 480i 3x (laced) to work on my TV in any sort of setup or configuration.

[DarkRoastChris]

I have gone through all the modes on the receiver and turned off any sort of processing yet I still get this extremely poor picture. Considering that the receiver has hdmi passthrough I thought that it would be possible to send the unaltered video signal to the TV while using the receiver for audio.

[gray117]

Suspects:
... Suspect receiver has a bug with 480i hdmi (*edit from below seems to actually be with the OSSC passthrough and/or hdmi 480i specifically)

Possible receiver side oddness:
... Tried the current setup with another screen/monitor, same effect?
... And the reciever is inputting+outputting on hdmi? Same issue if receiver outputs on component?
... How does reciever handle ps2 480i in on component, outputting on hdmi and component?

Possible ps2 oddness:
... Presume you're hooking up ps2 using rgb scart to ossc, tried with component? (Or vica versa).
... Anything else 480i behaves like the ps2 with/out OSSC on receiver, or is it just the ps2 + OSSC combo?

Work around:
... OSSC 3.5>Phono to receiver (cd?) input, cheap remote hdmi switcher between ossc hdmi + reciever/tv ?

[nmalinoski]

Work around:
... OSSC 3.5>Phono to receiver (cd?) input, cheap remote hdmi switcher between ossc hdmi + reciever/tv ?

If the TV supports ARC (and it's not horribly broken on the TV or receiver), or it's feasible to connect the TV's TOSLINK output to the receiver, then I would bypass the receiver, connecting the OSSC directly to the TV, and then let the TV handle passing audio back to the receiver. That way, the TV directly gets the feed (which was demonstrated to function correctly), and the audio is still sent to the receiver.

[DarkRoastChris]

These are some really good suggestions and I will try as many of them as I feasibly can when I get off work today. However I run the majority of my retro consoles through component and don't have any scart cables to try out.
If it helps my setup is 70001 PS2 slim > HD retrovision cable > OSSC > Monoprice hdmi cable > Denon receiver > Monoprice hdmi cable > Samsung PN51F8500.

[nmalinoski]

These are some really good suggestions and I will try as many of them as I feasibly can when I get off work today. However I run the majority of my retro consoles through component and don't have any scart cables to try out.
If it helps my setup is 70001 PS2 slim > HD retrovision cable > OSSC > Monoprice hdmi cable > Denon receiver > Monoprice hdmi cable > Samsung PN51F8500.

Both your TV and receiver support ARC, so I would try connecting the receiver to HDMI3 (ARC) and the OSSC to HDMI2 (DVI) on the TV, then make sure ARC is enabled on both the receiver and TV.

[DarkRoastChris]

Ok so after quite a bit of testing I think I've figured out what the problem might be but still don't know how to fix said problem.

First off using the ARC worked as a workaround. I was able to use the 480i passthru on my TV while getting the receiver to pump out sound with a separate hdmi cable. But because I've become very curious about this little problem I kept testing other variations of setups.

First I tried running the HD retrovision cable directly into the receiver and then hdmi into the TV, completely bypassing the OSSC. Low and behold I got picture and sound so I know its not a problem with the receiver taking in a 480i signal.
For example - PS2 > HD retrovision cable > receiver > hdmi cable> TV

Next I tried running an original Xbox into the OSSC via component cables then into the receiver on 480i passthru and got the exact same problem that I had with the PS2, a horribly zoomed in picture with large black alternating lines. I chose an original xbox because I know alot of games run at 480i. However when I switched to any other 480i mode on the OSSC besides the 480i passthru I get a normal 4:3 picture.
Xbox > component cable > OSSC > hdmi cable > receiver > hdmi cable > TV

After that I tried an odd combo of component to hdmi to component and got no picture whatsoever in 480i passthru.
PS2 > HD retrovison cable > OSSC > hdmi cable > receiver > component cable > TV

At this point I figured it had to be the way that the OSSC was digitizing the analog signal that the receiver couldn't accept in the 480i passthru mode. It doesn't seem to be a problem with 480i itself which leads me to believe that this receiver doesn't completely play nice with the OSSC. Again all other 480i modes work fine and the ARC seems to be the best way to work around this problem but then I'm lead to believe that I could have bought any receiver as long as it has ARC. Unfortunately now that I've encountered this problem I can't use the receiver as an all around hdmi switching and splitting solution when it comes to having the OSSC in the chain, which is a pretty big bummer.

Thanks to everyone who replied in an attempt to help me figure this problem out. I am completely open to other suggestions if anyone thinks that there is something that I may have missed.

[nmalinoski]

First I tried running the HD retrovision cable directly into the receiver and then hdmi into the TV, completely bypassing the OSSC. Low and behold I got picture and sound so I know its not a problem with the receiver taking in a 480i signal.

Not quite. All that tells you is that your receiver is okay digitizing 480i from its analogue YPbPr inputs. It's not uncommon (in televisions, mostly) for analogue and digital inputs to be processed differently. It's entirely possible that whatever processing pipeline the component inputs go into does fine with 480i, but the HDMI pipeline flips out with 480i.

I don't understand why, though, because the manual (page 245) claims support for 480i input and output over HDMI, so it should work.

Have you tried going into the output settings of your AVR and turning off all of the processing? Failing that, my next step would be to get in touch with Denon and try to get some support out of them.

Side note, I find it astounding that, according to the manual, this AVR doesn't support anything other than 15kHz over component--so no 480p, 720p, 1080i, or 1080p. WTF.

[DarkRoastChris]

So apparently even though I thought that I've turned off any sort of video processing its possible that the receiver may still be doing something to the video signal. After looking into other denon avr models it appears that there is an option for bypass in the video mode for certain models, like the x2300 here.

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX2300W/NA/E ... xuhedk.php

However it appears that the x3400 model DOES NOT contain the bypass feature which completely blows my mind.

http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX3400H/NA/E ... xuhedk.php

If that is true then I'm guessing that no matter what I do the receiver will still be doing something to the video signal. I'm really hoping this is not the case and it's looking like I'm gonna have to reach out to denon to see if there is an equivalent on this receiver to the bypass mode.

[Xer Xian]

If I remember correctly the OSSC's 480i passthrough isn't really a passthrough - pixel repetition is still applied, meaning that the output is some non-standard wide resolution. This might be throwing off your receiver.

An easy workaround would be getting another PS2 and hooking it up to the Component input of the receiver, and only use it for 480i titles. PS2 are very cheap after all.

[gray117]

An easy workaround would be getting another PS2 and hooking it up to the Component input of the receiver, and only use it for 480i titles. PS2 are very cheap after all.

Sure, but if user has more than ps2 in 480i, and it's kind of inconvienent to pre-plan what to play on which one, or for the games that alternate between resolutions... OP seems to have gone to some extent to try and get himself an all-in-one setup....


Outside chance:
... It'd be intereseting to test the receiver with other 480i hdmi sources if anyone can think of an easy way to do this? ... afaik everything like 360/ps3 only support 480p on hdmi...

Idea: retropie probably the easiest way to explicitly test a whole bunch of hdmi formats:
https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentati ... t/video.md


If you're sticking with the receiver (still the best for the line multiplication for you?) could try checking with the OSSC people on the specs of 480i passthrough signal and seeing if maybe denon could/would firmware patch it for that signal (and/or anything else that might work in this fashion, if there's something else that could be perceived as more common - satellite tv box etc... it could motivate them to actually look into it... retropie seems to be best means to test the various options).


Back to basics:
Otherwise yeah just a small remote switch (£10-15) to bypass receiver [video] in the case of 480i catastrophe would seem to be the way round this since you're otherwise relying on the receiver to process your line multiplation signals?

[DarkRoastChris]

Gray117 is correct, I have put a ton of time and effort into trying to create the ultimate gaming setup. So when Try from My Life In Gaming mentioned this certain receiver and how it would basically fix all the problems that I had or could forsee in the future I was hoping that I finally had the solution. Needless to say I was pretty disappointed when he responded and said he had the exact same problem but forgot to mention it in the video. There are quite a few workarounds that I could attempt and will probably end up going with an hdmi switch but that partially defeats the purpose of purchasing the receiver.

In response to gray117 I did try it with an original xbox running games that support 480i and had the exact same problem as the PS2. I detailed it in a previous post. I would prefer to keep the receiver as it works great with everything else I've tried with the OSSC except 480i passthru. Plus I've had some previous nightmares with having to return certain electronics and don't want to attempt that headache. And to be honest at this point I've almost made it my mission to figure out how to get the OSSC 480i passthru to work with this receiver, however if there's no option to bypass the video mode processing then I may be out of luck.

I will definitely be contacting denon because if they could release a firmware update with the ability to bypass the video mode processing then that would be my next step in trying to figure this problem out. But until then I'm still open to any other suggestions.

[gray117]

In response to gray117 I did try it with an original xbox running games that support 480i and had the exact same problem as the PS2.

Yeah but no ... what I mean is testing 480i on hdmi, but removing the ossc (presuming it could be doing something odd as Xer Xian suggested) ... yes this is kind of doing denon's testing for them, but your best bet of getting them to take notice will be if you explicitly know what signals on hdmi are causing the issue... Also, by way of doing this, you could basically confirm if the OSSC is/isn't special in it's handling of 480i...

Otherwise there's a chance Denon could say we don't care about OSSC, because it's essentially not a retail/licensed/certified bit of hardware and toss your bug report without even looking into it. Or say it works with the one example of 480i on hdmi that they tested, and without any further info they'll again just toss the bug without finding/fixing any other issues that could might just fix the OSSC specific issue (again assuming all 480i just isn't fcked on hdmi for that receiver).

Again I'm presuming the worst of ... but... at least you could call them out publically if you know they know it's busted in all/certain hdmi handling, and they don't bother too look into it --- it's not watergate, but firm evidence is your best resort to leveraging them into doing something just out of professional pride... again, assuming something can be done about it.

[Harrumph]

If I remember correctly the OSSC's 480i passthrough isn't really a passthrough - pixel repetition is still applied, meaning that the output is some non-standard wide resolution. This might be throwing off your receiver.

I think you are mistaken actually, the wiki suggests that doubled horizontal resolution is only used for various line-multiplied modes:
http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... mpling_opt.

I dont have time to confirm this at the moment, but it’s easy for the OP to test if changing upsample 2x setting makes any difference.

The only other suggestion I have for the OP is to try change h.active to 704.

[DarkRoastChris]

Ok guys after yet even more testing I've gotten some interesting results.

After some suggestions from Xer Xian and gray117 about testing 480i with something other than the OSSC I remembered that my Retrotink 2x accepts a 480i signal and also has a pass through feature just like the OSSC. So I hooked up the Retrotink in place of the OSSC and put it on pass through mode.

PS2 > HD Retrovision cable > Retrotink 2x > mini hdmi to hdmi cable > receiver > hdmi cable > TV

To my amazement I got a perfect picture and sound, the same as if I would have run the component cable directly into the TV. I tried all the modes on the Retrotink and still got a normal 4:3 picture. Which of course made me think that whatever the OSSC is doing when it digitizes the analog signal is throwing off my receiver, just like Xer Xian said. But in an effort to be as thorough as possible with the testing I then decided to run the PS2 into the Retrotink then into the OSSC then into the receiver.

PS2 > HD Retrovision cable > Retrotink 2x > mini hdmi to VGA cable > OSSC > hdmi cable > receiver > TV

I set the Retrotink and OSSC both to passthrough and wouldn't you know it I got the horrible picture that I was getting with just the OSSC on passthru. Now the interesting part is that when I set the Retrotink for 2x mode while still running through the OSSC on passthru I got a much more normal yet rather jittery picture. All the other 480i modes on the OSSC produced the same results I was getting when I didn't have the Retrotink in the chain. Which again leads me to believe that the OSSC is doing something with the 480i signal on passthru mode that the Denon receiver does not like. I also made sure to go into the receiver's options and play around with all the settings while doing this but had no luck getting the picture I desire while on 480i passthru. However when switching the receiver to game mode while turning the video conversion off produced a picture of almost negative colors. Very strange.

In response to Harrumph I did try both options as you suggested. Turning on upsample 2x while in 480i passthru mode produced no picture whatsoever, yet when switching to other 480i modes I did in fact get a slightly degraded picture. However I have been unable to get a picture at all while using the 480i 3x (laced) in any set up or configuration. The same thing happened when when I changed the h.active to 704, no picture. I'm not entirely sure what that might mean for my current situation as I haven't delved too deep into all that the OSSC has to offer.

So that's where I'm at right now. So far as I can tell it seems to be the OSSC digitizing the analog signal that the Denon freaks out with. I still not sure if the Denon is doing something with the signal since there doesn't appear to be a bypass option on the video mode setting. I haven't reached out to Denon yet as I'm trying to nail down exactly what is going on before I attempt to drag them into this as gray117 suggested. If anyone has additional ideas as to what it could be, feel free to throw them out here. I only have a couple hours a day to do testing but will be glad to test anything within my power. And again thanks to everyone that has responded so far in an attempt to help me out.

[gray117]

I'd maybe reach out to the OSSC guys and see if you can get some exact info on their signal ... it might even be documented.
https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... n-support/
Bucko from video game perfection is also BuckoA51 on here I believe.

If they know of any similar equipment or signal it could help to bolster your issue ... aside from the fact it can't be too whack since your tv (and *afaik* most tvs are) is totally fine with the OSSC 480i passthrough.

...It's probably a bit of a long shot since the OSSC is pretty unique.

But it could come down to something mundane like line levels/tolerences/resistence - although you'd generally assume it shold be an on/off thing with hdmi... If you've got any kind of powered hdmi booster/extender/passthrough it might be interesting to see if anything inbetween the ossc + receiver improves (or even worsens) matters...

But yeah any which ways - hopefully good luck in getting to the end of tinkering and onto playing!

[DarkRoastChris]

I posted a new topic in the VGP OSSC forum and hopefully will hear back from the OSSC guys. It would be awesome if it was something as minor as a few tweaks in the OSSC settings. However just to continue covering all my options, today I will be testing everything I have previously tested with a different, slightly older and less sophisticated receiver to see if this problem is only Denon related. Maybe I can narrow it down to something that the receiver is doing as well as the OSSC.

And I did take a break from testing last night and spent that time actually playing video games, which is in the end the goal of all this.

[Dochartaigh]

I have a slightly older Denon AVR-X3300W if you need me to test anything. I do know PS2 via OSSC played fine on mine, but admittedly I was mostly playing SoTN PS1 (240p) game, but the boot screen and system menu are in 480i I believe and I saw those quite a bit (including my Free McBoot menus in 480i as well). To my memory I didn't notice any weird zooming like you described. I was playing on a TCL 65R617 4K flatscreen.

[DarkRoastChris]

That would be most appreciated of you Dochartaigh. Basically if you can try any PS2 game that runs in 480i as its main resolution, through component cables into the OSSC and set it for 480i passthru, run that into the receiver and then into your TV via hdmi cables and see what kind of picture you get. If you have an original Xbox with games that run in 480i then feel free to test that too if you have the time.
After looking into the settings on your receiver I see that it also does not have the bypass option on video mode so if you get a clear picture while having all the processing options turned off on your receiver then that will help me determine if my x3400 might be doing something to the 480i signal on passthru.

If you have any questions feel free to ask them and thanks again for offering to help out.

[DarkRoastChris]

(Update, reposted from the VGP forums)

*I have run the test suite firmware.
In test T3 while running into the receiver instead of the normal greyscale bars that can be seen in the other tests and when you turn on the OSSC I got the greyscale screen but everything was heavily pixalated with jagged edges and was moving from the top of the screen to the bottom in a waterfall like effect. This was with all the receiver video processing options turned off. While still running this test I tried every video processing option on the receiver and while all of them did different things to the picture it was still what I would call a broken picture that never resembled the normal greyscale screen.
T8 produced no picture.
All other tests performed normally except the T2 and T4 produced a large checkerboard pattern at the bottom of the screen and none at the top but maintained otherwise normal greyscale bars.

I then tried all the tests with the OSSC running directly into the TV. All the tests produced the exact same results except for T3 in which I got a perfectly normal greyscale screen. This makes sense as whenever I run the OSSC directly into the TV I have no problems whatsoever.

Still kind of boggled as to what the receiver could possibly be doing with the 480i signal from the OSSC. Any thoughts?*

If anyone is interested in following the responses on that forum here is the link.
https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... post-26807

[DarkRoastChris]

I have now run alot of my previous tests on a Marantz NR1403 and have found that it DOES NOT have the 480i passthru problem with the OSSC. This makes me believe that the receiver is the likely culprit and is doing something funky with the 480i signal. This is an older and much less robust receiver than the Denon and I honestly expected it to have problems with the OSSC. Granted I have not tested every resolution on the Marantz (time is a cruel mistress) but considering 480i passthru has been my main nemesis I'm still fairly surprised.
I have gotten a reply from marqs on the VGP forums who owns a similar receiver, an X2300W, and has offered to try and replicate the problem I'm having with his receiver. If I can cross reference his results with the testing that Dochartaigh has graciously offered to do with his receiver then we may be able to home in on the main source of this problem.
Fingers crossed guys.

[Xer Xian]

@Harrumph: In a sense, we were both mistaken - the OSSC does pixel repetition for 240p and 480i passthrough mode, but that is mandated by the hdmi specifications (page 28 of pdf) to comply with a certain minimum bandwidth requirement:



So it really has be done and the issue lies elsewhere. The OP is now being assisted by marqs himself, hopefully they'll be able to sort it out.

[Gara]

Scratch my previous post. I can't seem to get 480i from the OSSC or Time Sleuth to output through the Denon 3500h. 480i from my DVD player works fine. The receiver likes to re-enable video processing on 480i sources. Once I disabled it a second time it results in no signal for the Time Sleuth and the OSSC.

That weird effect I was getting on Crazy Taxi was a result of the receivers built in processing.

I took the Denon out of my chain and that solved the problem for my setup. I'd like to be able to use the Denon. I wonder if there is something we could adjust in the OSSC that would make the signal more tolerable like my DVD player.

Spoiler

I'd be delighted if you find a solution. I have a Denon 3500h. Here is an example of the problem.

Dreamcast Crazy Taxi title screen 480i via the OSSC
https://imgur.com/a/dpuWFz2

576i output from DVD sources via hdmi through my bluray player seems to work fine.

When I take the Denon out of the chain, 480i via the OSSC displays fine. This is my solution. It makes my setup even more convoluted, so it would be nice if it was something simple to adjust on the ossc.

It is not a user setting variable on the Denon 3500h. There is very little you can adjust about output. Video conversion basically has an on and off setting and that's the whole of it. Mine is off.

Edit: 480i test pattern from the Time Sleuth also works fine through the Denon for what that's worth.

[DarkRoastChris]

Thank you for the reply Gara. This appears to be exactly the same problem I'm having with my receiver and OSSC. Would mind if I shared this information on the VGP forum? I figure it may help marqs in determining what could possibly be happening to the 480i signal. Or if you happen to have an account on there here is the link to that.
https://www.videogameperfection.com/for ... u-problem/

[Gara]

I replied. Hopefully something is discovered.

Its off topic, but I do rarely see another f8500 owner. Does yours also process OSSC 5x 1920x1200 as a 1080p signal? It's a 1080p tv so I always found it fascinating that it would even display an image with that signal. It also supports 1600x1200 if I recall correctly. Lg c9 oled is my main now. The 60" f8500 is in another room. It still is a wonderful TV, just a bit laggy. Superb ossc compatibility and motion blur.

You're probably aware but letting the TV process 480i on its own brings the lag to about 120-140ms. Fine for rpgs. I really don't like the look of Bob deinterlacing so letting the TV process it is the better solution.

[DarkRoastChris]

That is quite an amazing coincidence. Another f8500 owner with a very similar receiver and OSSC problem. It sucks that we both are experiencing the same problem but if we do find out more then at least this topic will have helped another person with this issue.
I too was surprised when I found out that the TV would accept the 5x 1920x1200. All around it has been a pretty great TV except I would have to agree that the lag can be pretty bad sometimes. I bought it back before I was trying to create an ultimate gaming setup and have been super happy with the picture quality and compatibility but I do plan on getting another TV because of the lag. Its also funny that you mention the time sleuth as I actually have one on order (it should be here Monday) to measure the amount of lag my TV produces. 140ms, ouch. I've been using the hdmi input rename to PC trick to try and cut down on the lag but the time sleuth should be able to give me a definitive number. Luckily I play most of my shmups on older consoles and the Xbox 360 so I don't have to deal with 480i on those. The PS2 is my RPG go-to console so 480i is ok. I'm also not a fan of the Bob deinterlacing look so that's why I'm really hoping for a 480i passthru fix.

Got a little off topic myself but its always interesting to talk to someone with similar equipment and the like.

[Gara]

Alrighty, I screwed up the first test. I tested again and this is the results.

The Denon would not pass unprocessed 480i from the Time Sleuth or the OSSC. When you run a 480i signal through the Denon it will automatically re-enable video processing. This results in the weird zoomed in image with alternating lines. If you once again go into settings and disable video processing it will result in no signal.

The 480i from my DVD player seems to pass through fine with no processing. There is something about the 480i from the Time Sleuth and OSSC that the Denon does not like.

Edit: Back to the off topic. The f8500 is a wonderful TV. I had a good 5 years with it. It has some annoying quirks like only certain ports being PC mode compatible. The F8500 handles 24p film motion so much better than my OLED. I'd be curious to see what kind of numbers you see with the time sleuth. Firmware was quirky on this TV and there seems to be some variance in reported lag times.

[DarkRoastChris]

It automatically re-enabled the video processing on it's own? That is very odd. Did it do that with both the OSSC and the time sleuth? I checked to see if my receiver was re-enabling the processing on it's own and strangely enough everything was still off. Yet I'm still getting a picture from the 480i signal with the video processing off albeit a very broken one.
Marqs did reply on the VGP forum and said to try the YCbCr444 TX mode on the most recent fw. I tried it and unfortunately got the jagged, pixalated, waterfall look that I've gotten before. Have you gotten a picture like this in any of your testing Gara?

I will make sure to report the lag numbers I'm getting once I get the time sleuth. Just out of curiosity what kind of lag numbers does your LG OLED produce? It will probably be next year before I am able to get another TV but I figure I might as well start researching different TV's lag. If I am getting 140ms on my f8500 that is pretty unacceptable so I'd like to find something better suited to gaming.