shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:28 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 8:35 am 



Joined: 09 Apr 2012
Posts: 2248
768p vs 1080p is really the same as 1080p vs 2160p. Lower target resolution = sharper image, more aliasing, more scaling errors.

mCable Gaming Edition (important distinction, not all their cables do the same thing) provide post-process anti-aliasing. Meaning it remove jaggies by guessing where they are in the image. Since it doesn't actually know where the jaggies are, it might get false positives, making the picture blurrier and/or distorting the UI.

That said the tradeoff is usually worth it, but that's talking about post-process anti-aliasing in general, the mCable Gaming Edition also does additional image quality destroying processing, like some sort of artificial sharpening. Eww.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 4:44 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
ZellSF wrote:
768p vs 1080p is really the same as 1080p vs 2160p. Lower target resolution = sharper image, more aliasing, more scaling errors.

mCable Gaming Edition (important distinction, not all their cables do the same thing) provide post-process anti-aliasing. Meaning it remove jaggies by guessing where they are in the image. Since it doesn't actually know where the jaggies are, it might get false positives, making the picture blurrier and/or distorting the UI.

That said the tradeoff is usually worth it, but that's talking about post-process anti-aliasing in general, the mCable Gaming Edition also does additional image quality destroying processing, like some sort of artificial sharpening. Eww.


Wow. I didn't know anything about these cables. I'll have to look into them.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:20 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 95
strayan wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
For modern, 720p-native games, I'm sure it looks fine; but how does it look with an older 240p 2D game line-tripled to 720p? Does it still have razor-sharp edges?


Of course it does. Ultrahdmi n64 integer scaling 240p to 720p displayed at 1:1 is a sight to behold. Ditto snes classic.

I believing hes asking from a REAL 240p source, like PS1 games on PS2 or even some PS2 titles.
The Ultrahdmi and snes classic are just doing all the work and spitting out a high quality 720p signal, so your TV isnt even scaling anything.

Chances are that your TV is going to recognize 240p as 480i and really mess up the image.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Thu May 23, 2019 10:24 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1118
Well, given that I see a specific reference to line tripling, I don't think anybody is talking about directly feeding 240p at all.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 7:43 pm 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 95
orange808 wrote:
Well, given that I see a specific reference to line tripling, I don't think anybody is talking about directly feeding 240p at all.

Hes talking about the "line tripling" that the display supposedly should do, since it's a 720p monitor.

Sadly, most TV's internal scalers just apply a very blurry algorithm, even if the source signal could be scaled to an integer.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 24, 2019 11:20 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1118
tongshadow wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Well, given that I see a specific reference to line tripling, I don't think anybody is talking about directly feeding 240p at all.

Hes talking about the "line tripling" that the display supposedly should do, since it's a 720p monitor.

Sadly, most TV's internal scalers just apply a very blurry algorithm, even if the source signal could be scaled to an integer.


I know how it works.

There are references to an N64 HDMI kit performing scaling and using the OSSC to line triple a 240p source.

The point was that scaling 720p to 768p will yield incorrect scaling on the vertical axis. Strayan added that 1:1 mode was available to prevent that.

Not sure what you're going on about.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Sat May 25, 2019 12:29 am 



Joined: 07 Jan 2017
Posts: 95
For 1:1, 720p scaling shouldnt matter at all anways. Dot by dot is the safest bet for any high quality source.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 8:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
I'm probably going to get that Samsung, but I wish I could find a bigger 1080p TV. What do they do with all of them, once they're out for a couple of years? Toss them in a landfill?

EDIT: I'm looking at a 40 inch Samsung from 2014, that seems to get good reviews.
However, I cannot find anything on lag. I'd at least like it to be similar to my current Samsung. Of course, I don't know how much lag it had when I bought it, and still don't. It just has a Game Mode, that works well enough.
Are most Samsung TVs similar in lag?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00MYBR75O/re ... B00SK9B1T2

My current TV:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004N ... UTF8&psc=1
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:07 pm 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 93
You shouldn’t have any trouble finding a used 1080p TV.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2019 2:46 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
I actually ordered the Samsung UN40H5003. It's supposed to be new. We'll see. I don't trust a lot of these Amazon sellers.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed May 29, 2019 9:15 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Xyga wrote:

And if you prefer VA panels the Samsung S32F351 (aka LS32F351FUNXZA) very nice contrasted picture with wide-enough viewing angles for a VA,


Any idea of the input delay on this? I see is has 5ms Response time, but that's not the same, obviously.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:43 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Well, my search continues. The seller sent the completely wrong Samsung TV. They said they had another buyer e-mail them a few minutes before me, and took it off of Amazon.
So, I'll have to return that one.

Awesome.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:13 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Xyga wrote:

And if you prefer VA panels the Samsung S32F351 (aka LS32F351FUNXZA) very nice contrasted picture with wide-enough viewing angles for a VA,


Any idea of the input delay on this? I see is has 5ms Response time, but that's not the same, obviously.

6ms, measured myself with a Leo Bodnar tester.

EDIT: if you're considering it know this: the coating is glossy (quite reflective) which enhances clarity but can be bothersome in a bright room.
Access to settings is done with a joystick like button on the back and isn't very convenient.
No VGA. No speakers.
The pixel response is average good for a VA when overdrive is on middle setting, but it's not blazing fast, good for most contents but not things like 3D FPS or racing games.
The aspect ratio controls are a bit underwhelming, I don't remember exactly how but I got into annoying wrong aspects with external sources a couple of times.
The black levels settings are a bit confusing, but don't panic if you get either washed out or overdark picture.
Scaling is slightly too sharp so if you have an external scanlines-generating device (like the OSSC) the uneven thickness of the lines might be apparent.
The VESA mounting holes aren't located in the very center of the monitor's back, which means if you mount this on a rotating stand or arm, whenever you rotate the weight distribution and position vs axis will be off, so it must be done gently and carefully.

Remember that monitor's one and only strenght is the good VA panel, it's good for watching movies, play modern consoles and emulators, but if you seek a display fitting for retrogaming, definitely get a ViewSonic VX3211-mh instead, or the redesigned VX3276-mhd (though be very careful about leaking backlight with that one, be sure you can return it if needed)
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Last edited by Xyga on Fri May 31, 2019 6:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:34 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Xyga wrote:
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Xyga wrote:

And if you prefer VA panels the Samsung S32F351 (aka LS32F351FUNXZA) very nice contrasted picture with wide-enough viewing angles for a VA,


Any idea of the input delay on this? I see is has 5ms Response time, but that's not the same, obviously.

6ms, measured myself with a Leo Bodnar tester.

EDIT: if you're considering it know this: the coating is glossy (quite reflective) which enhances clarity but can be bothersome in a bright room.
Access to settings is done with a joystick like button on the back and isn't very convenient.
No VGA. No speakers.
The aspect ratio controls are a bit underwhelming, I don't remember exactly how but I got into annoying wrong aspects with external sources a couple of times.
The black levels settings are a bit confusing, but don't panic if you get either washed out or overdark picture.
Scaling is slightly too sharp so if you have an external scanlines-generating device (like the OSSC) the uneven thickness of the lines might be apparent.
The VESA mounting holes aren't located in the very center of the monitor's back, which means if you mount this on a rotating stand or arm, whenever you rotate the weight distribution and position vs axis will be off, so it must be done gently and carefully.

Remember that monitor's one and only strenght is the good VA panel, it's good for watching movies, play modern consoles and emulators, but if you seek a display fitting for retrogaming, definitely get a ViewSonic VX3211-mh instead.


Thanks for all the info. This will be for modern gaming, actually (720 to 1080). I stocked up on CRTs a while back (I have 5 Sony Wega Trinitrons), so that will probably do OK until I die, or if the house burns down. :lol:
The stand on this thing looks weak. I saw a review on YouTube on it, and it was all wobbly and seemed quite poor. I'm trying to find a better stand for it. I don't want to wall mount it, and I probably won't use this one for portrait mode (I have a 24 inch Dell that I use for shmups). Any recommendations on that? Something white and really solid?

And yes, I did order this monitor as well. The TV will go back (considering it's not the right model). Hopefully this monitor has a nice pic. The Dells I have all look a little washed out. Might be because they have no gloss.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Last edited by evil_ash_xero on Fri May 31, 2019 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:37 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
Nope dunno about normal third party stands sorry.
Brands like Samsung and LG are notoriously cheap on the build quality, yeah...
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:40 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Xyga wrote:
Nope dunno about normal third party stands sorry.
Brands like Samsung and LG are notoriously cheap on the build quality, yeah...


I'll look around on Amazon. 75 x 75 VESA?

And 6 ms is great.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 6:47 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
Yeah 75x75

6ms is the top bar / top of the screen - which is the real input lag stricto sensu - but most clueless reviews websites would quote the middle of the screen so for them it would be around 14ms there.
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 7:24 am 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Once again, thanks.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:07 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 20 Aug 2016
Posts: 1118
If we're going to be picky, let's get picky.

The top number is actually the display video processing latency.

The middle number is display video processing latency plus one-half of scanout time.

The bottom number is total display video processing latency plus total scanout time.

Input lag would be the time between the controller input and the software running on the game machine to send a frame update down the wire (that reflects a change in the game state from the controller). :)

You'd really like to know all three numbers. There are some displays that might show the same reading at all three numbers. Some others will only be a couple milliseconds behind the top number at the bottom of the screen.

So, scanout time does matter and the display video processing latency alone won't give you the full story.

I'd like to see all three numbers published, but I'm happier with the middle than I would be with just knowing the top readings.
_________________
We apologize for the inconvenience


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 3:36 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
Sure, personally I don't count the scanout time as lag or delay, because it's not abnormal/unwanted or anything. I used to include the half scanout time like most reviews do these days (mid-screen or average), but realized it's silly and dispensable, even misleading for the common reader.
Certainly it counts too when playing but if you think about it...hardly anyone thinks about it when mentining CRTs which @60Hz take the same time after all.

In regards to variations, sure they're here, though with your average 60Hz Full-HD monitor, occurences of important discrepancies or oddities are relatively rare.

I still have that monitor BTW, I wrote down all three figures somewhere along with some more 1080p monitors, at different brightness levels (can't find them but iirc there were no surprises)
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:20 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
I noticed that the monitor has glossy plastic. The back looks like it is not glossy. Is that the case?
I hate glossy, but whatever. But if the back isn't, that's just less I have to worry about scuffing up.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Fri May 31, 2019 5:38 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
No the back is streaked relief.
Yeah glossy plastic is crap but heh, very common. On the plus side it's white so scuff marks are less visible, glossy black is the worst.

EDIT: lol found my LB results for the S32F351, at three different brightness levels:

20%
top 6,5
mid 14,4
bot 21,5

75%
top 6,00
mid 13,5
bot 20,5

100%
top 5,6
mid 13,3
bot 20,3
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:42 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 335
https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/tcl/3 ... -s325-2019

12ms in game mode.

Probably some dark detail smearing due that slow low transition. But this looks like a big improvement over the original model.
What isn't clear though is if it displays 4:4:4 properly when connected to something like one of the consoles since it's an auto detect.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:12 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
The 32" is 720p though.
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:41 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 335
https://www.bestbuy.com/site/tcl-32-cla ... &gclsrc=ds

Is the retailer specific 32" 1080p version.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:56 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
Ah, that's the 32S327, the reviews on Rtings cover the S325 line. Guess they renew entry level products swapping panels and stuff all the time but they're probably very similar anyway.

32" 1080p monitors are very common these days, personally I'd rather explore that area, you lose a number of conveniences typical of TV sets, but I like to have control over things like pixel overdrive even if just once to be sure I get the best out of my panel.

Though 32" 1080p VA's are more scarce in the realm of monitors, so to have an option for simple TV sets like that is good too.

edit: actually it's strange, why the hell did they create 3 variants of 32" ?
32" 32S321 720p
32" 32S325 720p
32" 32S327 1080p
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:19 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 335
I want to say monitors are very inflexible when it comes to calibrating using device controls. But all 1080p Roku TVs are artificially locked out of any real calibration settings because reasons.
So that's moot.
I haven't seen many reviews of 32" VA panels. The only good once i've seen for sure is that Samsung one.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:00 am 


User avatar

Joined: 05 Nov 2013
Posts: 6570
Location: block
Scarce indeed, especially the 32" 1080, or they're curved with potentially inferior pixel response (well the cuverd variant of the Samsung did)
1440's and even 4K 32" VA are more common.

I've seen a TV variant of the F351 once, but apparently it lacked overdrive control.

Otherwise there's the mysterious Skillkorp SKP_E20-32 (144Hz)...
_________________
mycophobia wrote:
have tyou ever played dodponpatchi


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:04 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 5590
Location: Where the fish lives, WV
Jesus Christ. First I get the wrong Samsung TV. Had to drag it to UPS for a refund.
Now, this other sent me the fucking CURVED version of the monitor.
What I ordered was "Samsung 351 Series 32 inch 16:9 Full HD LCD Monitor with Game Mode - S32F351FUN"

I'm cursed.
_________________
My Collection: http://www.rfgeneration.com/cgi-bin/col ... Collection


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Any good older 1080p TVs still available?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:31 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 335
evil_ash_xero wrote:
Jesus Christ. First I get the wrong Samsung TV. Had to drag it to UPS for a refund.
Now, this other sent me the fucking CURVED version of the monitor.
What I ordered was "Samsung 351 Series 32 inch 16:9 Full HD LCD Monitor with Game Mode - S32F351FUN"

I'm cursed.

Avatar is appropriate right now huh? :wink:

So here are some options too if you are willing to spend a little bit more for it and have a VESA mount or VESA compliant stand.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?c ... 4205668456

I looked at the manual for one of the bigger Samsung ones. And they really seemed to be geared towards total device control while still being basically just big TVs/Monitors.
A lot more possible tweakable options than consumer displays. (Even a specific app for mobile/pcs for really in depth calibration. But you seem to have to be an actual business partner to obtain access to this software). They are pretty much guaranteed to support 4:4:4 the only mystery really is input lag. Unfortunately the only way to know would be to buy one, and test it. Most places don't offer returns though. Samsung sells some of them directly at their website so I haven't checked their returns on that stuff.

A lot of these support Portrait and Landscape and can get extremely bright.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 79 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Extrems and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group