SCART vs HDRetrovision Cable for 480i CRT w/Component Input?

[AceFan84]

Hi everyone, just found this forum yesterday when searching for advice on my dilemma, seems like a good place to ask for help! I just received a 27" Sony Trinitron Model #KV-27FV17 for free and am wanting to connect a whole bunch of my retro consoles to it but I am utterly confused on if I should use SCART or HD Retrovision's Component cables to hook them up to my new TV. The RGB ready systems I want to connect are: SNES, Genesis (w/32X), PS1, Saturn, PS2, and eventually a Dreamcast. I also will be connecting a NES, N64, and Gamecube but they aren't modded for RGB so I will probably just use composite for the NES and S-Video for the N64 and Gamecube for now. ALL of the systems are NTSC and my TV doesn't have a SCART input as it's a North American set.

But I am SO VERY CONFUSED on which way to go, SCART or the HD Retrovision cable route! From what I can tell both options are pretty expensive (though SCART with a converter and a switch box seems quite a bit more expensive) and the general consensus seems to be the HD Retrovision cables are a lot easier to setup and use than a SCART setup is but maybe don't look quite as good. I'm just getting into this scene (I'm a newbie) I have never hooked any of these systems up before using anything other than their standard hookups but after seeing all these new possibilities I want to improve my experience where possible. I'm pretty good with tech so I'm not really intimidated by the idea of SCART but I am not sure if it's worth it or not (more parts mean more things that can go wrong!). Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

[Gara]

Pick whatever is most convenient for you.You're going to be transcoding RGB to Ypbpr either way, so there isn't going to be a quality difference in your use case.

The only real down side of building around HD Retrovision cables is that if you want to introduce a console (with rgb support) that isn't supported by HD Retrovision then you may end up having to buy all that other equipment any way.

Component switchers are much cheaper and easier to deal with. RGB Scart is a pain in the ass. Honestly the only alternative to HD Retrovision that I'd actually recommend today to someone just coming into the hobby is BNC cables combined with an Extron cross point. There is do much utility there.

My setup is scart based. Once I started down that path I felt I had to commit to it. It's at least all fully automatic with gscartsw's.

[Einzelherz]

I use scart, but since I only have one console hooked up at a time, I use a scart to RCA cable that I made along with a component switcher so everything is cheap and easy to work with.

If you only are ever going to use one or two consoles and HD retro make cables for them, that would be easier.

[dseleski]

I’ll break it down for you for simplicity:

Scart: cheapest but with expensive switchboxes. Why they’re cheaper: they’re easier to solder because of the big hood and the components themselves cost minimal. Why the switchboxes are expensive: the big hoods require a huge pcb, multiplexing and signal processing isn’t cheap. The bulk of Scart consumers up to the mid 2000s didn’t bother with switchboxes - ergo they are somewhat niche. gscart comes most recommended in this sector. There is nothing however wrong with the much cheaper, manual switchboxes (otaku switch) etc - in this case you must use good cables however as there’s zero signal amplification at the switch. Also the switches could be prone to wear. Please do not buy bandridge switchboxes, they run the signal lines too close together on the pcb, adding artifacts/noise. I also get complaints about Hydra but I swear this is due to it being prone to not detecting lower sync voltages - I try to make my cables compatible with it but console mods sometimes run the sync too low for it to detect.

Btw those $40 Scart to Y-U-V transcoders are not actually bad. It’s not a crappy $40 hdmi scaler, it;s a cheap and cheerful transcoder doing a much less complex job. The only thing wrong with these is you have to unscrew it and use a flathead screwdriver to turn the potentiometers to calibrate it. Or there’s other options that don’t require calibrating (anyone got a list?) Honestly, Scart into YUV transcoder is no more complex than a straight component cable - it could add up to be more expensive though *purely depending on how many consoles you use.*

Component (YPbPr) over RCA: cables are more expensive than Scart by necessity when they require a transcoder. For some reason switchboxes are cheaper - are they? There’s honestly no good reason why, and I don’t use component bar on ps3 so I haven’t looked into solutions. The cables sold by HD Retrovision use high grade mini coax, and come recommended.

Rgb/component over BNC: The professional solution. You can get nigh on lossless extron switchboxes for a decently low price on eBay. The problem? Because it’s a professional solution the plugs are *not* cheap and I personally will *not* cheap out on Bnc plugs - experience has taught me that this sector of the fandom is very fussy about the quality of the plugs. Plus it has to be coax by necessity. So you will pay more for Bnc cables.

RGB over Dsub: *potentially* the cheapest solution overall. Cables will only be a tad more expensive than Scart, vga switchboxes work with RGBS and are plentiful and cheap. But the fandom at large ignores it for some reason. Possibly due to audio - 15 pin dsub into a vga switchbox have to have audio seperate and every switchbox manufacturer chose a different standard for the audio hookup - if the switchbox has audio at all, because some don’t (so pick one that does). Cables are available now on my site - http://www.retro-access.com - via custom builder for now because of the audio problem. Hardest cables to build however, because of cramming caps into a dsub hood for some options, but I’m working on making it easier/more affordable.

[fernan1234]

RGB over Dsub: *potentially* the cheapest solution overall. Cables will only be a tad more expensive than Scart, vga switchboxes work with RGBS and are plentiful and cheap. But the fandom at large ignores it for some reason. Possibly due to audio - 15 pin dsub into a vga switchbox have to have audio seperate and every switchbox manufacturer chose a different standard for the audio hookup - if the switchbox has audio at all, because some don’t (so pick one that does). Cables are available now on my site - http://www.retro-access.com - via custom builder for now because of the audio problem. Hardest cables to build however, because of cramming caps into a dsub hood for some options, but I’m working on making it easier/more affordable.

If DSub cabling becomes more easily available (without needing custom orders) and affordable I would probably swap out my entire SCART setup for it.

From what I can tell the Extron VGA matrixes offer everything good that the BNC Crosspoint matrixes have, with no cons, only pros: smaller boxes, generally cheaper, and more audio connection options (though this may be a disadvantage from the perspective of cable standardizing). There's probably other pro-level brands for VGA boxes as well. DSub cables being significantly less costly than BNC ones would be another huge advantage.

I've only worried about how these matrixes handle audio routed to it, and whether there's any loss there. Then again, if there is audio quality loss it shouldn't be any worse than what our best SCART switches may do.

Too bad only SCART has a good automatic switcher option, but having to press buttons is usually not a big deal.

[Xer Xian]

Too bad only SCART has a good automatic switcher option

The Extron SW VGA series is automatic.. it should work with component as well (with an adapter).

The 8- and 12-inputs models are hard to come by though.

[neorichieb1971]

My SNES HD retrovision cable doesn't work. I get a Virtual boy output with red over black or nothing at all. I bought another Super famicom just to make sure it wasn't the console and I bought a RGB cable. The RGB cable works on both SFC consoles and the HD retrovision doesn't work on either. Since I live in the UK and paid quite a bit for shipping and then got stung incredibly on import taxes I felt that I wasted almost $120 on a piece of crap.

It did work on day 1 when I received it, but I had to push it so hard into the SFC console to get full color and if you just moved the console an inch it would lose the connection and go to black and red again. I fancy this is an easy fix by replacing the connector but its welded to the cable. I emailed the guy and said if he could help and I didn't get a response lol.

I hope the people in the USA get a better service from hdretrovision. Mine was shambolick. The Genesis hdretrovision cable works fine.

[fernan1234]

The Extron SW VGA series is automatic.. it should work with component as well (with an adapter).

The 8- and 12-inputs models are hard to come by though.

I didn't know these had automatic switching. Good info. The 6-input ones seem to be readily available.

[maxtherabbit]

RGB over Dsub: *potentially* the cheapest solution overall. Cables will only be a tad more expensive than Scart, vga switchboxes work with RGBS and are plentiful and cheap. But the fandom at large ignores it for some reason. Possibly due to audio - 15 pin dsub into a vga switchbox have to have audio seperate and every switchbox manufacturer chose a different standard for the audio hookup - if the switchbox has audio at all, because some don’t (so pick one that does). Cables are available now on my site - http://www.retro-access.com - via custom builder for now because of the audio problem. Hardest cables to build however, because of cramming caps into a dsub hood for some options, but I’m working on making it easier/more affordable.

If DSub cabling becomes more easily available (without needing custom orders) and affordable I would probably swap out my entire SCART setup for it.

From what I can tell the Extron VGA matrixes offer everything good that the BNC Crosspoint matrixes have, with no cons, only pros: smaller boxes, generally cheaper, and more audio connection options (though this may be a disadvantage from the perspective of cable standardizing). There's probably other pro-level brands for VGA boxes as well. DSub cables being significantly less costly than BNC ones would be another huge advantage.

I've only worried about how these matrixes handle audio routed to it, and whether there's any loss there. Then again, if there is audio quality loss it shouldn't be any worse than what our best SCART switches may do.

Too bad only SCART has a good automatic switcher option, but having to press buttons is usually not a big deal.

I've got this PCB in production for a prototype right now, it will be the heart of a series of dongles to give RGBS over DE-15 and audio over 3.5mm stereo plug (extron VGA switchers use this) to all consoles that have native CSYNC output

the concept here is a 6-8" pigtail with the console specific A/V plug on one side and this PCB on the other - then you can use COTS high quality audio and video cabling from there to your switch or display without requiring any custom cables

RGB over D-Sub is the language of the gods, the Victorious God of Analog to be specific, and I'm well pleased to see y'all start speaking it

[maxtherabbit]

Component switchers are much cheaper and easier to deal with. RGB Scart is a pain in the ass. Honestly the only alternative to HD Retrovision that I'd actually recommend today to someone just coming into the hobby is BNC cables combined with an Extron cross point. There is do much utility there.

this is solid advice, if someone just has an american consumer set with component HDRV is the way to go

if someone has plans for a full matrixed setup with multiple displays, go BNC or VGA (although HDRVs still shine in this application with some RCA to BNC adapters)

[fernan1234]

I've got this PCB in production for a prototype right now, it will be the heart of a series of dongles to give RGBS over DE-15 and audio over 3.5mm stereo plug (extron VGA switchers use this) to all consoles that have native CSYNC output

the concept here is a 6-8" pigtail with the console specific A/V plug on one side and this PCB on the other - then you can use COTS high quality audio and video cabling from there to your switch or display without requiring any custom cables

RGB over D-Sub is the language of the gods, the Victorious God of Analog to be specific, and I'm well pleased to see y'all start speaking it

Interesting stuff! I also think D-Sub sounds like a great solution. The biggest problem I'm seeing right now is getting audio out of the Extron VGA switch boxes. They seem to use this silly 5-pole captive screw (phoenix?) connector. For people like me used to RCA or 3.5mm plugs on stereo receivers/amplifiers, this is a huge pain. I can't seem to find any adapters for this situation anywhere, except on the Extron website that requires membership to even see pricing and availability:

https://www.extron.com/product/csr6
https://www.extron.com/product/csm6

For people using these VGA switches, what's your solution for audio out of them?

[maxtherabbit]

Interesting stuff! I also think D-Sub sounds like a great solution. The biggest problem I'm seeing right now is getting audio out of the Extron VGA switch boxes. They seem to use this silly 5-pole captive screw (phoenix?) connector. For people like me used to RCA or 3.5mm plugs on stereo receivers/amplifiers, this is a huge pain. I can't seem to find any adapters for this situation anywhere, except on the Extron website that requires membership to even see pricing and availability:

https://www.extron.com/product/csr6
https://www.extron.com/product/csm6

For people using these VGA switches, what's your solution for audio out of them?

I just made one using about $2 worth of chinesium

[fernan1234]

Where did you buy the captive screw connector? After a quick search I can find any except the 5-pole one.

[nmalinoski]

Where did you buy the captive screw connector? After a quick search I can find any except the 5-pole one.

I bought my spares from AliExpress. Check your equipment and see whether the receptacles are 5-position or 10-position before buying, and then buy ones that match the position count of the receptacles.

A while back, I bought a bunch of green 5-position ones not realizing that the receptacles on my CrossPoint Ultra 88 HVA are 10-position, and the 5-position ones won't fit side-by-side without shaving off some plastic.

[maxtherabbit]

Where did you buy the captive screw connector? After a quick search I can find any except the 5-pole one.

I bought my spares from AliExpress. Check your equipment and see whether the receptacles are 5-position or 10-position before buying, and then buy ones that match the position count of the receptacles.

A while back, I bought a bunch of green 5-position ones not realizing that the receptacles on my CrossPoint Ultra 88 HVA are 10-position, and the 5-position ones won't fit side-by-side without shaving off some plastic.

I bought these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-3-4-5Pins-Te ... 3351541379

all the extrons that use VGA connectors seem to exclusively employ the 5 position ones in my experience

[nmalinoski]

Spoiler

I've got this PCB in production for a prototype right now, it will be the heart of a series of dongles to give RGBS over DE-15 and audio over 3.5mm stereo plug (extron VGA switchers use this) to all consoles that have native CSYNC output

the concept here is a 6-8" pigtail with the console specific A/V plug on one side and this PCB on the other - then you can use COTS high quality audio and video cabling from there to your switch or display without requiring any custom cables

RGB over D-Sub is the language of the gods, the Victorious God of Analog to be specific, and I'm well pleased to see y'all start speaking it

This is really cool, and I hope it's a first step towards a miniature, universal RGB/AV interface; something like this that can:

• Fit inline, behind the console (but not obnoxiously deep and bulky, like BeharBros products for the Dreamcast);
• Take and seamlessly switch between any kind of sync (composite video, luma, clean composite sync, green, separate sync) at up to 1080i (PS2, Xbox) or 1080p (Xbox 360, PS3);
• Provide switchable output sync type (separate sync, composite sync, passthrough) and voltage (75Ohm or TTL, applicable only to composite sync; separate sync should always be TTL);
• Provide TOSLINK output for audio, with passthrough for consoles that support it over their AV jack (Xbox, Xbox 360) and digitization of analogue output for everything else

Although, at that point, if the goal is to get this equipment working with VGA and BNC switchers, it might just make more sense for the community to develop a DE-15/BNC/HDMI switcher/RGB interface hybrid that can take the place of these old RGB matrix switchers while solving all of the problems they cause for the retro gaming community.

Could probably even manufacture boards that can drop into existing CrossPoints and MVX switchers to reduce cost; perhaps even manufacture new front plates with cutouts for small LCD screens (with or without touch) and/or new backplates to get different or additional I/O (any of BNC, DE-15, SCART, HDMI, RCA, 3.5mm TRS, TOSLINK). And, since we're replacing the brains of these devices, they could be capable of automatic switching.

Throw in an RGB decoder/transcoder on output, so we can have simultaneous RCA/YPbPr, DE-15/RGB, and HDMI output, regardless of video input (composite video, S-Video, YPbPr, RGB), which will give it the widest range of applicability for everyone--RGB for integration with SCART setups, PVMs/BVMs, and OSSC/Framemeister; YPbPr for component setups, North American consumer CRTs/LCDs, and OSSC/Framemeister; and HDMI for HDMI setups, contemporary TVs, and Framemeisters.

...Sorry, I get carried away sometimes.

[nmalinoski]

Where did you buy the captive screw connector? After a quick search I can find any except the 5-pole one.

I bought my spares from AliExpress. Check your equipment and see whether the receptacles are 5-position or 10-position before buying, and then buy ones that match the position count of the receptacles.

A while back, I bought a bunch of green 5-position ones not realizing that the receptacles on my CrossPoint Ultra 88 HVA are 10-position, and the 5-position ones won't fit side-by-side without shaving off some plastic.

I bought these:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-3-4-5Pins-Te ... 3351541379

all the extrons that use VGA connectors seem to exclusively employ the 5 position ones in my experience

I quickly skimmed Extron's VGA matrix switchers, and it looks like the smaller ones (8 or fewer inputs and outputs), do use all 5-position Phoenix connectors, so those 5-position plugs will be fine; however, it looks like the larger 12x8 and 12x12 switchers use the 10-position connectors, which will have the same problem I encountered with my CrossPoint.

[Galgomite]

I use Scart, because of the time I started and the support system here and other sites, but if I were starting over I’d use component. Too many mysterious problems after introducing the cables. Consider if all the devices you want to use would be covered with component, though.

[maxtherabbit]

This is really cool, and I hope it's a first step towards a miniature, universal RGB/AV interface; something like this that can:

• Fit inline, behind the console (but not obnoxiously deep and bulky, like BeharBros products for the Dreamcast);
• Take and seamlessly switch between any kind of sync (composite video, luma, clean composite sync, green, separate sync) at up to 1080i (PS2, Xbox) or 1080p (Xbox 360, PS3);
• Provide switchable output sync type (separate sync, composite sync, passthrough) and voltage (75Ohm or TTL, applicable only to composite sync; separate sync should always be TTL);
• Provide TOSLINK output for audio, with passthrough for consoles that support it over their AV jack (Xbox, Xbox 360) and digitization of analogue output for everything else

1) I designed it to be as small as possible (the board is 31.75mm x 38.735mm), so that is covered
2) it does have the ability to either pass sync direct from the console or to buffer it through a Schmitt trigger - when using the buffer the output is attenuated through a 330ohm resistor forming a voltage divider with 75ohm termination in the sink that keeps the Vpp under 1V for compatibility with SCART-type devices expecting video level sync. This also means that when being terminated into a high-Z sink (like TTL devices) the Vpp will still stay high enough for reliable sync triggering on any TTL sink device.

This meets most of your requirements, except it does not support any type of luma or CVBS sync because I did not want the complexity of a sync stripper circuit on board.

It's a dual buffer, so dreamcast (H/V sync) is supported. There's a jumper pad to tie the second input low when using the buffer with c-sync consoles. The other jumper pad is for when it is to be assembled without the buffer installed, for direct passthrough applications like SNES (which already buffers its sync output)

3) none of the devices I was targeting with this dongle have digital audio on the multi-out, so that was totally out of scope

[AceFan84]

Thanks for the replies everyone, some helpful info. A few days ago I decided to take a leap and get the HDRV SNES cable, it came in the mail yesterday but I'm so busy right now I haven't been able to try it out yet. Since my Trinitron has component I decided it would be much simpler to go the HDRV component route, only problem is availability!!!

Is it worth it to upgrade to the HDRV PS2 component cable if I already own an official Sony set? I've heard people say something isn't quite right with component on the PS2 (I have a PS2 slim so not sure if that matters).

[maxtherabbit]

Thanks for the replies everyone, some helpful info. A few days ago I decided to take a leap and get the HDRV SNES cable, it came in the mail yesterday but I'm so busy right now I haven't been able to try it out yet. Since my Trinitron has component I decided it would be much simpler to go the HDRV component route, only problem is availability!!!

Is it worth it to upgrade to the HDRV PS2 component cable if I already own an official Sony set? I've heard people say something isn't quite right with component on the PS2 (I have a PS2 slim so not sure if that matters).

The HDRV cables are definitely better than the Sony kit, but I don't think you could actually see a difference in picture quality. The noise in the ps2 component signal is intrinsic to the console not from the cable

[AceFan84]

Thanks for the replies everyone, some helpful info. A few days ago I decided to take a leap and get the HDRV SNES cable, it came in the mail yesterday but I'm so busy right now I haven't been able to try it out yet. Since my Trinitron has component I decided it would be much simpler to go the HDRV component route, only problem is availability!!!

Is it worth it to upgrade to the HDRV PS2 component cable if I already own an official Sony set? I've heard people say something isn't quite right with component on the PS2 (I have a PS2 slim so not sure if that matters).

The HDRV cables are definitely better than the Sony kit, but I don't think you could actually see a difference in picture quality. The noise in the ps2 component signal is intrinsic to the console not from the cable

Ok thanks. I went ahead and got them since they were only about $20.

[Wolf_]

Hd retrovision cables for sure. Your tv doesn't even have scart input so it will be considerably simpler, not to mention the quality is the same and you don't need to worry about sync types/voltages and the component connectors are way sturdier.

[Harrumph]

The biggest problem I'm seeing right now is getting audio out of the Extron VGA switch boxes. They seem to use this silly 5-pole captive screw (phoenix?) connector. For people like me used to RCA or 3.5mm plugs on stereo receivers/amplifiers, this is a huge pain. I can't seem to find any adapters for this situation anywhere, except on the Extron website that requires membership to even see pricing and availability:

db electronics made an open source pcb design that you could try.

https://db-electronics.ca/2018/04/23/op ... pter-pcbs/

[fernan1234]

The biggest problem I'm seeing right now is getting audio out of the Extron VGA switch boxes. They seem to use this silly 5-pole captive screw (phoenix?) connector. For people like me used to RCA or 3.5mm plugs on stereo receivers/amplifiers, this is a huge pain. I can't seem to find any adapters for this situation anywhere, except on the Extron website that requires membership to even see pricing and availability:

db electronics made an open source pcb design that you could try.

https://db-electronics.ca/2018/04/23/op ... pter-pcbs/

Yep, I also found that RGC offers pre-built adapters here: https://www.retrogamingcables.co.uk/STE ... 3fb4c077bb

RA also has an adapter cable for a bit more cost: https://retro-access.com/products/rca-t ... itch-boxes

I've decided to make the switch to the VGA setup master race. Thanks everyone for all the info posted here!

[maxtherabbit]

it lives!

[fernan1234]

Nice! VGA is the future.

[Shelcoof]

I have the exact same TV and I use component to connect my consoles.

I also use a component switch box as well. Make sure when using component you use a "GOOD" component switch box. How would you be able to tell if your using a good switch box is that the picture quality doesn't get degraded and looks the same as if it was going directly to the TV.

I use Scart for consoles that don't have component cables via a Scart to Component converter.

Also if you don't already know make sure to use good quality cables as well

My Set Up:
PS2 [HD Retrovision/Official Component Cables][I can't tell the difference between the two cables]
Wii [Wii official/Monster Comonent Cables][Great for Emulation]
Dreamcast [The foo83 RGB Scart Cable/Toro via Scart][Go RGB Scart over S-Video]
Saturn [The foo83 RGB Scart Cable][S-Video is acceptable]

I find S-Video is sometimes sufficient for consoles that don't have component or RGB Scart. If your going Cube there are options to use Component Wii Cables with one of the HDMI out adapters.

I really love this TV. Its probably the best SD TV I own so far. I also have both its little brothers as well

[AceFan84]

I have the exact same TV and I use component to connect my consoles.

I also use a component switch box as well. Make sure when using component you use a "GOOD" component switch box. How would you be able to tell if your using a good switch box is that the picture quality doesn't get degraded and looks the same as if it was going directly to the TV.

I use Scart for consoles that don't have component cables via a Scart to Component converter.

Also if you don't already know make sure to use good quality cables as well

My Set Up:
PS2 [HD Retrovision/Official Component Cables][I can't tell the difference between the two cables]
Wii [Wii official/Monster Comonent Cables][Great for Emulation]
Dreamcast [The foo83 RGB Scart Cable/Toro via Scart][Go RGB Scart over S-Video]
Saturn [The foo83 RGB Scart Cable][S-Video is acceptable]

I find S-Video is sometimes sufficient for consoles that don't have component or RGB Scart. If your going Cube there are options to use Component Wii Cables with one of the HDMI out adapters.

I really love this TV. Its probably the best SD TV I own so far. I also have both its little brothers as well

Thanks for the info, I really like the tv so far too! I ordered a remote control for it so I can access the service menu, the geometry is off a little so I'm hoping I can improve it with some adjustments.

The one thing I'm still not sure about is exactly what consoles to connect to it and which ones to connect to my 1080p plasma. I have a Panasonic TC-P42G15 Plasma and it's a really nice tv with a ton of inputs (1 s-video, 2 component, 3 hdmi) but I'm not sure if I should connect my consoles like my PS2 and Gamecube to it (via component) so they can output 480p or just connect them to my Trinitron which only supports 480i.

I'm also trying to figure out if RGB modding a N64 is worth it over just using s-video on my trinitron, it's fairly expensive to do and I'm not sure if it's worth the cost to do.

[FinalBaton]

From the photos I see of this set, it looks like it has a really sweet picture