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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:42 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
Posts: 623
There's also a brightness control on the Toro, don't know if that actually helps with anything though.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 2:48 pm 


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thebigcheese wrote:
There's also a brightness control on the Toro, don't know if that actually helps with anything though.


I think that's more like a bug labelled as a feature. Just seems to add a grey overlay to the whole image.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:44 pm 


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クリスチャン wrote:
Looks like the Dreamcast DAC is not that great. Boosted levels, slightly noisy video, and slightly uneven colors.

Interesting - it’s funny because the Dreamcast's VGA output has always been viewed as impeccable by the retro community in the past.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:48 pm 


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na, maybe in terms of sharpness (and that's a valid statement even today), but the fact that the video levels are overblown has been known for ages.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:44 pm 


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Ahh OK, I hadn't picked up on that, good to know.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:05 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I would wait until the RGC cable is actually released before dismissing it


If you use 480i instead of 480p, do you still have issues with overblown video levels and RGB levels or those issues only affect 480p?


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:32 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
I would wait until the RGC cable is actually released before dismissing it


If you use 480i instead of 480p, do you still have issues with overblown video levels and RGB levels or those issues only affect 480p?

I have not tested 480i specifically, but the issues are the same on 240p - so I would say yes they affect all modes


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:24 am 


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andykara2003 wrote:
Ahh OK, I hadn't picked up on that, good to know.


Honestly the vast majority of this information is not widely known. It's not like how most people in the retro scene know about 1 chip SNES vs 2 chip. This is especially true regarding the whole aspect ratio and sampling thing. That issue wasn't "widely" exposed until the OSSC came about, and even Digital Foundry missed some info about what exactly is different with the DC's VGA output. They just mentioned sample rate; which is only half of the story.

For whatever reason the DC just doesn't get enough coverage on these things.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:39 am 



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Can someone test a cga/vga converter on the DC just to help me confirm something?
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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 3:53 am 


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headlesshobbs wrote:
Can someone test a cga/vga converter on the DC just to help me confirm something?

The gbs8200? Yeah I just got mine


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 8:25 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
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So now that I got some of my equipment in order, I decided to so a little test to find out what devices the DC has a problem with.

Test game - SoulCalibur/Sophitia Stage

Monoprice VGA to HDMI Converter - Fail
(No Name) HD Video Converter - Pass
CGA/VGA Converter - Pass
Open Source Scan Converter - Adjust to 6-7 Pass

Direct connection to PC CRT - Pass
Direct connection to LCD/LED (past test) - Fail


The one's that fail is where the issue on accepting the analog conversion is being done improperly. I know the levels are high for it's output, but in the past I've never seen this problem until digital came along and even with PC systems at the normal settings, I've experienced the wrong level of contrast saturation being applied. This is a note on all who are in the business of making analog/digital converters to monitor their calibration settings as the problem lies with them and not just a single gaming console alone. (This test is 10+ years old btw)
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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:51 pm 


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If you absolutely must buy a standalone ADC, hunt down some higher quality gear. Chinese stuff sucks.

Extron DVC RGB-HD A does a good job. It also recognizes and samples the Dreamcast aspect ratio properly.

In addition to ADC, it brings low pass filtering and EDID management with a PC.
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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2019 9:50 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
the official VGA box buffers H/V sync through a 74HCT244 and contains coupling caps for RGB

the toro does not contain any scaling logic, so I'm not sure where they are getting "pixel scaling issues" from - that really makes no sense


I just assumed they were referring to the fuckery that a modern display does to a Dreamcast's wider-than-normal VGA signal. No?


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 12:49 am 


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Endymion wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
the official VGA box buffers H/V sync through a 74HCT244 and contains coupling caps for RGB

the toro does not contain any scaling logic, so I'm not sure where they are getting "pixel scaling issues" from - that really makes no sense


I just assumed they were referring to the fuckery that a modern display does to a Dreamcast's wider-than-normal VGA signal. No?

probably, but why try to put that on the box? ANY RGB or VGA output solution is going to do the same thing


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 1:49 pm 



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
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It didn't seem to me they were putting it on the box, it's just the case that if you use the thing with an HDTV you'll have that kind of weirdness yeah? I don't know that the Toro was really marketed to anything but die-hard CRT gamers, but there's always going to be someone wanting to plug something like that up to their brand new OLED or whatever. And it's a natural point to make if you are comparing it with the DCHDMI particularly.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:11 pm 


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Endymion wrote:
It didn't seem to me they were putting it on the box, it's just the case that if you use the thing with an HDTV you'll have that kind of weirdness yeah? I don't know that the Toro was really marketed to anything but die-hard CRT gamers, but there's always going to be someone wanting to plug something like that up to their brand new OLED or whatever. And it's a natural point to make if you are comparing it with the DCHDMI particularly.

obviously it was misleading, since a couple people in this very thread were believing that the official VGA box from sega behaved differently in that regard


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:17 pm 


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Endymion wrote:
I don't know that the Toro was really marketed to anything but die-hard CRT gamers


The ability of the Toro to output 31KHz RGBS over the SCART connector means it's the only all-in-one solution to hook up the DC to a Framemeister. I know this was an intentional marketing decision on their part because Beharbros sent me a free Toro so I could test it with my Framemeister.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:27 pm 



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darcagn wrote:
The ability of the Toro to output 31KHz RGBS over the SCART connector means it's the only all-in-one solution to hook up the DC to a Framemeister. I know this was an intentional marketing decision on their part because Beharbros sent me a free Toro so I could test it with my Framemeister.

Not quite. The Toro is the only solution that is always readily-available for purchase. thefoo.83 on eBay has made Dreamcast SCART cables with a mode switch that will produce 480p, just like the Toro, but without the fuss or obnoxious depth added to the footprint of the console.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:33 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
obnoxious depth added to the footprint of the console.


Have to agree with this, I pretty much gave up on the Toro because it was such a pain to keep it all wired up without something coming disconnected or falling down the back of my shelves, or the connector cable breaking. It's an unnecessarily large box on the end of a fairly rigid, yet incredibly fragile cable, and connectors coming out of the sides at annoying angles.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:40 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
darcagn wrote:
The ability of the Toro to output 31KHz RGBS over the SCART connector means it's the only all-in-one solution to hook up the DC to a Framemeister. I know this was an intentional marketing decision on their part because Beharbros sent me a free Toro so I could test it with my Framemeister.

Not quite. The Toro is the only solution that is always readily-available for purchase. thefoo.83 on eBay has made Dreamcast SCART cables with a mode switch that will produce 480p, just like the Toro, but without the fuss or obnoxious depth added to the footprint of the console.



Well yeah, anyone can make their own custom cables. Before the Toro or thefoo.83 were doing it I made one and published the schematic. He might even be using my schematic as a reference, who knows.


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 Post subject: Re: Dreamcast official VGA box
PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2019 3:59 pm 



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And RGC has one coming out soon.


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