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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 2:08 am 



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Just wanted to say the thefoo.83 has s-video cables in stock.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:09 pm 



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How do the S-vid cables compare to the OEM cables? Given the choice between official, thefoo.83 and Retro Access, which is best for use on a consumer Trinitron or Framemeister?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:34 pm 


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Einzelherz wrote:
GeneraLight wrote:
The absolute best S-Video cable for the N64 (along with the SNES and GameCube) is the Monster Cable GCGL300 SV-10 GameCube S-Video A/V Cable. Although it's very expensive and hard to find, these cables provide the sharpest and cleanest image quality for an unmodified Nintendo 64. The difference between the official Nintendo Composite Cables that come included with the system and these is night and day.

Image


However comparing them to any non-composite s-video cable, they're day and day.

Source: I have and have sold many many of these. Don't waste your money.


They're good (better than the official Nintendo S-Video cable at least), but very expensive even used and the RCA connectors don't fit in very well unless you apply alot of force on the RCA inputs.


FinalBaton wrote:
The upcoming retro_access cable is really interesting, looking forward to that


Retro Access will released a Nintendo Multi-Out S-Video cable?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Dec 17, 2019 2:34 am 


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SO after much procrastination and delay due to some technical issues, I am finally enjoying the N64 in glorious S-Video.

Must say I concur the quality is excellent (NTSC-U console w/ thefoo.83 s-video cable) even stunning with some games on the 21" Trinitron I'm trying it on.

I don't regret not going after RGB. That kinda leaves flat panels out for me but I don't mind, the N64 not being one of my most frequently played consoles, it will permanently remain wired to a medium or small CRT anyway.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 4:01 pm 


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Interesting to read your crt picture impressions as always.

Hey that's some pretty cheap cable! pretty cool. Maybe not worth importing for us in North America, but this seems like a great deal for our european friends. The quality of his cables has improved a lot in the last couple years I take it?
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:16 pm 


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I have no idea, also no other S-Video cable to compare.
I got a thefoo.83's essentially because ppl seemed to complain about the ones on amazon or whatever might be fakes/bad (carrying composhit or built like crap)

To go S-Video as an European, unless you find a US N64 not too far away you'll need to import one anyway, so it'd cost a little bit more this way I guess (you can get a loose one for like $5 but the shipping and potential customs might be the problem)
I was just lucky to have one lying around that I got for free.

But compared to getting a PAL moded for RGB, or buying a pre-modded, or even going UltraHDMI, the S-Video alternative is a significantly cheaper yet still very, very sastisfying solution I highly recommend to anyone who doesn't care about putting the N64 over a flat panel.
Quality-wise it is a leap forward compared to composite.
Unless one values the N64 enormously, I don't see the point of spending more, especially after an Everdrive purchase which is already quite a lot.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 8:57 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
the S-Video alternative is a significantly cheaper yet still very, very sastisfying solution I highly recommend to anyone who doesn't care about putting the N64 over a flat panel.
Quality-wise it is a leap forward compared to composite.
Unless one values the N64 enormously, I don't see the point of spending more, especially after an Everdrive purchase which is already quite a lot.

yes that's the angle I'm coming at it too, which is why I find your take especially interesting. I'm not huge into the N64 and don't want to invest lots of money into it, it won't be played much. (I actually refuse to buy one for the current prices here : $60 to $80 for a system with no games. but a bud who's currently in Japan might grap me a system for $20)

It's good to know that an S-video cable is plenty satisfactory with this system, I'll probs go with that. It'll be for crt use only in my case as well.


A RGB mod kit from Voultar would run me $50 CAD and it's an interesting option, but I'm not sure I'm gonna bother with N64, since I'm not that much into the system
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2019 10:29 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
I have no idea, also no other S-Video cable to compare.
I got a thefoo.83's essentially because ppl seemed to complain about the ones on amazon or whatever might be fakes/bad (carrying composhit or built like crap)

To go S-Video as an European, unless you find a US N64 not too far away you'll need to import one anyway, so it'd cost a little bit more this way I guess (you can get a loose one for like $5 but the shipping and potential customs might be the problem)
I was just lucky to have one lying around that I got for free.

But compared to getting a PAL moded for RGB, or buying a pre-modded, or even going UltraHDMI, the S-Video alternative is a significantly cheaper yet still very, very sastisfying solution I highly recommend to anyone who doesn't care about putting the N64 over a flat panel.
Quality-wise it is a leap forward compared to composite.
Unless one values the N64 enormously, I don't see the point of spending more, especially after an Everdrive purchase which is already quite a lot.

I agree completely... unless you have one of the north american launch models that can be RGB modded for $5 in parts. If one happens to have that it would be stupid to not go RGB, but s-video will do otherwise.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 12:19 am 


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I probably have a launch model yes (001 or smth), but you see, getting it modded overall would cost;
. parts + shipping
. shipping console + parts to modder (assuming I find one at last in my country to do that on a US console)
. paying modder's work + return shipping

I did that once for another console and it cost me something like 80€, but that was one that mattered more to me (a SNES)
Alternatively, buying pre-RGB-modded consoles on eBay cost about the same, they're usually 80~100, but often they're units people get rid of because they've found a better one with a better mod, which is why they never give details on the mod (some bad surprises, it's eBay after all)

And no indeed I am not able to do most console mods myself, so yes I need to pay for the service.

SO in my case, considering I wanted to limit my total spending on the N64, the ~15€ that S-Video cable cost me and the fantastic result I get on CRTs...I wouldn't call that stupid.

PS: max, yesterday it was 'bullshit', today 'stupid'. you have a special clusmy talent to get on my nerves or is that intentional? (the latter would be a bad idea and you know it)
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 3:21 am 


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Xyga wrote:
PS: max, yesterday it was 'bullshit', today 'stupid'. you have a special clusmy talent to get on my nerves or is that intentional? (the latter would be a bad idea and you know it)

I had no intention of antagonising you with either post really. In truth, as posters on here go, I tend to rather like you.
That being said this victim routine you've been copping lately is tiresome. It's a bad look


With respect to the N64 mod, if you're not comfortable doing the work I can see that using s-video is a perfectly reasonable choice. Although I find it somewhat ironic that in the thread containing my other post you're referencing, you were advocating for a DIY solution that is at very nearly the same difficulty level as the basic N64 RGB mod.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 10:42 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Xyga wrote:
PS: max, yesterday it was 'bullshit', today 'stupid'. you have a special clusmy talent to get on my nerves or is that intentional? (the latter would be a bad idea and you know it)

I had no intention of antagonising you with either post really. In truth, as posters on here go, I tend to rather like you.
That being said this victim routine you've been copping lately is tiresome. It's a bad look

Then idk if you don't want to be perceived as aggressive; pick your words more carefully maybe? because that definitely was a bit.
It is also very tiresome for me to have to justify everything I post, be honest you didn't really pay enough attention to the context before using 'BS' or 'stupid', didn't you?

Anyway, I don't care what the general think or feel about me, the general's impressions are often wrong, people increasingly being complete asses however: that's facts. And me absolutely hating that and reacting negatively to their behavior makes me an ideal target for resentment I guess. But it's common that people would then think individuals like me are just troubling the peace and playing victim/karen, so I understand why you see me like that, but that doesn't make it right. Lots of people prefer that others would accept abuse silently so they don't have to witness what's happening. Right.
But in short I'm just defending myself against assholes, fuck popularity, it's true I've become tense and aggressive, but for fuck's sake I didn't start this. For me just taking a stroll in my usual internet neighborhood these days feels like surviving a zombie apocalypse.

Anyway back to topic;
maxtherabbit wrote:
With respect to the N64 mod, if you're not comfortable doing the work I can see that using s-video is a perfectly reasonable choice. Although I find it somewhat ironic that in the thread containing my other post you're referencing, you were advocating for a DIY solution that is at very nearly the same difficulty level as the basic N64 RGB mod.

Well that's how you see it but I don't, for me they're definitely not on the same level, I can't solder anything on a tiny chip's pins or board's solder points (my eyes won't see things so small this close anyway). The much larger pins on video connectors are much less trouble, there aren't other tiny pins and traces or components I might accidentally solder or damage along.
It may come down as a surprise for you but lots if not most people actually can't do stuff like that. Since there's a number of quite handy members here, in hardware forum conversations the untold 'default' is to assume everyone posting has at least minimal or average skills like electronics assembly/soldering pcb's (you know, like when one makes the mistake of talking with a technician/engineer/developer, the guy always assumes you are one too or know at least enough to get everything he says)

Maybe that's somehow related in part to the reason why you reacted with 'BS' or 'stupid'.
But check this, in the adapter's thread, I didn't judge thetallguy24 negatively for not wanting to go DIY and I don't think's he's lazy or stupid, so I proposed whatever shortcuts I found.
I know a lot of people need just one thing and aren't handy, don't have the soldering tools, no 'nintendo screwdriver', etc.
It's legitimate to tell them DIY makes more sense, but it's also good to realize it is sometimes (often!) way more money and trouble for them.

So yes, considering the cost and trouble of going RGB/digital, sometimes when it's for a console that's maybe not too important, having a solution like this straightforward S-Video solution for the N64, is really awesome. :arrow:
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 1:45 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
you didn't really pay enough attention to the context before using 'BS' or 'stupid', didn't you?

Launch model NTSC 64s are relatively uncommon, had I known you owned one I probably would not have used the word 'stupid'. I will accept responsibility for that because it could reasonably be perceived as me just calling you a dumbass to your face.

I stand by the bullshit comment though. Involving that random DE-9 connector is just sub-optimal and you know it. Calling it bullshit is not a personal attack, it's not like you designed the thing.

Xyga wrote:
it's true I've become tense and aggressive, but for fuck's sake I didn't start this.

Start what? There is no organized campaign against you bro. There's like that one guy that always makes shitty comments to you lol

I understand not caring about public perception, and I really understand defending oneself believe me, but if you keep down this road you're just going to alienate the remainder of people like me who actually like you.



If surface mount soldering is the issue, I'll solder a THS7316 onto a DIP to SOP adapter and give it to you if that helps. Just cover shipping.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:06 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
I stand by the bullshit comment though. Involving that random DE-9 connector is just sub-optimal and you know it. Calling it bullshit is not a personal attack, it's not like you designed the thing.

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE ARE YOU KIDDING ME you can't be that dense.

Alright I'm out, you unfortunately just validate what I state is the shitty reality.

:x
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2019 6:34 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
I stand by the bullshit comment though. Involving that random DE-9 connector is just sub-optimal and you know it. Calling it bullshit is not a personal attack, it's not like you designed the thing.

OH FOR FUCK'S SAKE ARE YOU KIDDING ME you can't be that dense.

Alright I'm out, you unfortunately just validate what I state is the shitty reality.

:x

one more time, in hopes that we can settle this:

the involvement of the 9-pin connector, even more specifically the random ass 9-to-15 pin adapter that the other guy posted is what I was declaring bullshit
*not* the entirety of your comments or advice

if you're still blasted about it at this point I give up


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 12:43 pm 


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Are the Psyclone s-video cables better than average? Is a basic RGB mod really going to improve upon s-video much?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:09 pm 


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Nogame wrote:
Is a basic RGB mod really going to improve upon s-video much?

with respect to image clarity there's not a big jump, but color fidelity is improved greatly

it is absolutely worth the effort and parts cost if you are capable and willing to do the work


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 3:44 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
Nogame wrote:
Is a basic RGB mod really going to improve upon s-video much?

with respect to image clarity there's not a big jump, but color fidelity is improved greatly

it is absolutely worth the effort and parts cost if you are capable and willing to do the work


Pretty well aligns with my philosophy and perception of S-Video vs RGB on CRTs. I'd even argue clarity is on par, especially with the lower line count of consumer sets, but the color vibrance of RGB is discernible. Is it worth the time and effort? It's real easy to just buy s-video cables for everything and costs almost nothing compared to the expense of paying someone to mod your systems or own the equipment and experience to do it all yourself. That said, I've RGB modded all of my own that required such, made all of my own scart cables, and hacked SCART inputs into several televisions. I chased after that last 5% of fidelity because I'm a nut.

To Xyga's defense, it's not just the surface mount chip soldering that'd be a challenge, the vias to tap the color sources are very small and a magnifying lamp is necessary for me. I pretty much use one all of the time now whenever I solder...


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 4:40 pm 



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Bratwurst wrote:
Pretty well aligns with my philosophy and perception of S-Video vs RGB on CRTs. I'd even argue clarity is on par, especially with the lower line count of consumer sets, but the color vibrance of RGB is discernible.


Whenever I mention the superior color reproduction of RGB vs. S-video with the same source and monitor, I've often been told (online) that it's just necessary to calibrate the monitor for the NTSC colors to match the RGB signal (i.e., adjust phase and chroma, I suppose). I was never able to find such a calibration sweet spot, but maybe it is indeed possible. For me it's just easier to use RGB.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:11 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
Bratwurst wrote:
Pretty well aligns with my philosophy and perception of S-Video vs RGB on CRTs. I'd even argue clarity is on par, especially with the lower line count of consumer sets, but the color vibrance of RGB is discernible.


Whenever I mention the superior color reproduction of RGB vs. S-video with the same source and monitor, I've often been told (online) that it's just necessary to calibrate the monitor for the NTSC colors to match the RGB signal (i.e., adjust phase and chroma, I suppose). I was never able to find such a calibration sweet spot, but maybe it is indeed possible. For me it's just easier to use RGB.

the best calibration in the world can't make up for the lossy encoding - some of the color data is simply gone


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:22 pm 


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Clarity's excellent indeed, I wasn't expecting this good. 'Might vary per-display but oh god on a good 21" Trinitron it's magnificent.
Colors aren't all right of course, but TBH on the N64 you're not playing anything nearing photo-realism like on current consoles, like who gives a damn if Mario 64's colors are right by calibration charts standards? not me, IDGAF.
That doesn't destroy the nice lighting in Doom 64 nor ruin the shades of Sin & Punishment either, it's just colored a bit differently and that's it.
Later I'll try on a bigger but cheaper CRT, see how it compares with the Trinitron. Maybe at 27" with a cheap shadow mask and low end chassis that S-Video picture won't look so glorious.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 5:41 pm 


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I think the chassis / calibration does make a big difference in how good s-video color reproduction is. It can range from pretty sub-par to pretty tolerable IMO


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 6:58 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
the best calibration in the world can't make up for the lossy encoding - some of the color data is simply gone


Makes sense. For the NES I actually favor the degraded colors by using S-video, that plus the slightly softer image than RGB feels more "right" to my eyes for that system, like composite but without the disadvantages. RGB is too much color for it, in a way.

Maybe something similar could be argued about the N64, or that the colors one is prone to get via composite/s-video are what was "intended", since RGB was not natively supported. Then again, we would be at the mercy of NTSC/Never The Same Colors decoding, so any intention kinda flies out the window.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 10:56 pm 


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Also in regards to whether S-Video quality varies between console revisions, well, that doesn't seem to have been confirmed nor denied, AFAIK.

There's been a lot of excitement over several 'funtastic' models having better composite, but I haven't read anything actually confirming the benefit was there for S-Video too.
I think I've seen a single video showing a brighter picture on the funtastic, which gives an impression of more vivid colors/cleaner, but it didn't seem to show better sharpness nor actually better colors...just a brighter picture. *shrug*

Some say it's rather bad/fake S-Video cables that'll produce dirty checkeboards, and not really the console revision.

The focus of discussions on the interwebs is on either composite or RGB anyway, there's fewer valuable info on S-Video, which is strange considering the unparallelled bang-for-buck w/ zero hassle that option provides, at least for simple CRT users.

Dunno...in any case I personally don't have another different US console and different S-Video cables to investigate by myself.

Whatever, for now I'm very satisfied of the S-Video picture I get, considering the leap in quality for just a click and a few bucks.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:40 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
Also in regards to whether S-Video quality varies between console revisions, well, that doesn't seem to have been confirmed nor denied, AFAIK.


I feel like max was talking about the difference in S-video handling between different makes and models of tv. I was just thinking of this exact topic actually. And how the s-video picture of certain prosumer and pro JVC monitors really looks stunning. That's actually the best I've ever seen S-video console output look. JVC really nailed this down it seems, at least on some of their sets

Xyga wrote:
the S-Video picture I get, considering the leap in quality for just a click and a few bucks.

Certainly! it's a huge jump over composite. and the convenience and low cost is a factor to consider here too.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2019 11:47 pm 


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FinalBaton wrote:
ike max was talking about the difference in S-video handling between different makes and models of tv

I know, I wasn't reacting to max's, I was talking about a different topic; the question of whether S-Video output varies between revisions.
It's been discussed but less researched than composite and RGB.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 12:42 am 


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Oh. that's a good point then. we know very little of this indeed
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 1:08 am 


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Nebulous. Listing the different encoders and known s-video cables, then testing wouldn't have been difficult.

Instead people have listed console models / 'CPU' revisions, serials, looking at composite quality, and RGB-modding feasability...
...
...but hardly did any useful referencing of the concerned parts nor used test patterns. And they say it took years. :?

The S-Video side will probably forever remain the least documented, it's a bit too late today to get people interested in giving it another more serious look, most pay for RGB, and digital when not owning a CRT.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:30 pm 


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I've tried to ascertain with some precision the PQ difference between s-video and component (but on a PS2). I bought a Kramer FC-4043 just for that some time ago.

https://i.ibb.co/2MJtYWF/Component-ingame.png
https://i.ibb.co/2dVmZhC/S-video-ingame.png

(Click to expand. Video files can be found here and here)

Not too bad, but not too good either. But you see, there's a problem with this comparison - it only shows the PQ difference between component and s-video as decoded by the Kramer. And the Kramer isn't particularly good at it. My JVC TM-H monitor does a much better job at maintaining color fidelity. I can't tell S-video from RGB or component on it, at least with low-res 240p games.

Was the last part in the period above needed? I'm not 100% sure, but I think so. Super Fantasy Zone should have a horizontal resolution of 320 pixels, and S-video has enough color bandwidth to cover that. But retro-consoles in hi-res or 480i mode (and any console after the Dreamcast) should theoretically output more color information than that which can be transmitted over a 3.58MHz color subcarrier (more here).

In the end, I think it's safe to say that most 240p games on most CRTs will look good enough to make investing considerable sums on RGB not strictly necessary.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Dec 23, 2019 4:52 pm 


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Quote:
In the end, I think it's safe to say that most 240p games on most CRTs will look good enough to make investing considerable sums on RGB not strictly necessary.

Somehow for me it kind of depends on the console's typical library contents.

- I don't care if the NES stays composite, as the art is typically not extraordinary due to the limited palette.

- N64 games being mostly smoothed polygons, I don't really care seeing it any sharper or deblurred with perfect RGB colors etc, the contents aren't so great that they require the most perfect and accurate picture IMHO.
The only good reason for wanting the latter is to avoid making it worse when upscaled/flatpanel.

- PS1 is mixed contents, while it's also low poly, you have unfiltered textures and sprites, so I'd be pissed if I didn't have RGB there, no matter the display.

- SNES same as PS1, there' a lot of pixel and colors details I want to see, so I'd be mad without RGB (but I manage w/out a 1-chip)

Etc, in short for me not all consoles absolutely need perfect RGB.

*cough* most do tho :p
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