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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:35 pm 


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Late to this but would also echo the recommendation for CRT if it is an option.

More than any other system I think N64 benefits from the flaws of consumer CRTs. The raw output is simply of a very low quality. Even with the best mods money can buy, many games look terrible.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 12:36 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1433
mrwasi wrote:
@FullBaton
My cables are strictly s-video, no yellow composite attached. Is there a way to test the cables to see if they are sending a true s-video output?

If you're starting without a cable, just make sure you get a cable that only has an S-Video and stereo RCA; not S-Video plus composite. I've had no problem with the $6 budget cables on eBay, but the best in that area is probably the thick, shielded ones from thefoo.83, also on eBay (if it's no longer listed in his store, you may have to PM him to ask if he'll put the listing back up).

If you already have a cable and want to test it, easiest way I found was to use an Extron IN1508 (which I didn't get for this purpose, but discovered by accident). Sometimes, consumer gear will accept composite over S-Video and it wouldn't tell you that was happening. The IN1508, on the other hand, strictly treats luma as luma and chroma as chroma; so, if you hook up one of these crappy composite-over-S-Video cables, the image will be entirely black and white, as it's pulling luma from composite, but chroma isn't connected, so there's no color data.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:08 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
HD Retrovision cable - $50
RGB mod - $3
Craigslist CRT with component - $free

Seems like a solid budget option to me

Derp. I keep forgetting about the HD Retrovision cables. Definitely a good, clean choice for consoles that natively output RGB, but still not as cheap as what I was suggesting.

I also think that $3 estimate for an RGB mod is way too low. Ignoring shipping costs, it's probably spot-on if you're the kind of person who is comfortable sourcing PCBs and components and then building the board yourself, but I think the majority of people looking to revisit their old consoles are more likely to be looking at about $30 for a preassembled board (for those who can solder but don't want to assemble a board with SMT components) or about $70 for the board and for someone to install it for you.


https://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-THS7316DR-IC-HDTV-VIDEO-AMP-3CH-8-SOIC-T7316DR-7316-T7316/112662478784?hash=item1a3b34ffc0:g:6G8AAOSw~HBaHlQF
$1.44 for the video buffer

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20pcs-SOP8-SO8-SOIC8-TSSOP8-MSOP8-to-DIP8-Adapter-PCB-DIY-Conveter-Board-new-V-/273774980412?hash=item3fbe42ad3c
$0.99 for 20 pack SOP adapter boards

https://www.ebay.com/itm/100-pcs-1-4W-0-25W-1-Metal-Film-Resistor-75-ohm-75ohm/252985851665?epid=1961966549&hash=item3ae721bf11:g:OsgAAOSwxg5X1srt
$0.99 for 100 75ohm resistors, 1%

All with free shipping


The difference in color fidelity between RGB and Y/C is dramatic IMO, but it is not a big a jump as coming up from composite


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:42 pm 



Joined: 16 Apr 2015
Posts: 49
Yeah, I kind of suck at soldering after attempting to mod a 360 and totally botched the procedure.
Is there any good sources or how to's for soldering noobs?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 2:11 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1433
maxtherabbit wrote:

Completely misses my point. Again, if you're a DIYer, great; if you're not, an RGB mod is going to cost you $30 to $70 or more. Also, the total cost of an RGB is always going to cost more and require significantly more effort than a <=$8 S-Video cable on eBay and a $0-$10 CRT.

maxtherabbit wrote:
The difference in color fidelity between RGB and Y/C is dramatic IMO, but it is not a big a jump as coming up from composite

I'm not claiming that RGB isn't superior to S-Video; I'm positing that the quality boost is not going to be noticeable on a second-hand CRT from 15-20 years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:39 pm 


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I think OP has all the info required to make a decision.

There's no right answer. You can't "win". :)
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:16 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
The difference in color fidelity between RGB and Y/C is dramatic IMO, but it is not a big a jump as coming up from composite

I'm not claiming that RGB isn't superior to S-Video; I'm positing that the quality boost is not going to be noticeable on a second-hand CRT from 15-20 years ago.

if we are talking about a fair to middling sony consumer set in good condition from ~15 ago, there is a huge (to me) difference in color fidelity observed between s-video and YPrPb


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:19 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
Completely misses my point.

actually I did miss the part where you said it was accurate if you are a DIYer, sorry

but this is a very easy mod as far as entry level console mods go, if one is interested in learning the ropes it's a great place to start


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 11:06 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
why on earth would you buy a $100 standalone transcoder and a retro access scart cable when you could get a HD retrovision component cable for the same price as the retro access cable alone and have the exact same quality?



A couple reasons: an HD retrovision snes/n64 cable costs $63 and works with only 2 consoles.. If someone were to go through the trouble of modding a N64 for RGB, presumably he/she would want RGB on other consoles. With a scart switch in the chain, you can have a ton of consoles hooked up to the transcoder. It's simply a more flexible option, with identical picture quality, and it doesn't cost much more.

But you're right, if OP never intended on playing other consoles, the HD retrovision cable would fit the bill.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:03 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
if we are talking about a fair to middling sony consumer set in good condition from ~15 ago, there is a huge (to me) difference in color fidelity observed between s-video and YPrPb

I fully agree with this. you know my position on the matter. I'd never be caught dead playing SNES or PS1 in s-video on my consumer crt. it's RGB or bust for me with these consoles. without a doubt.


BUT....

when it comes specifically to the N64... Is there still a huge difference in colour fidelity between s-video and RGB on that particular machine? I'm asking you because I've never seen RGB on an N64 with my own eyes (only comparison pictures or videos online).
I have, however, seen countless people say that they thought colours on N64 through RGB, to them, felt a bit lifeless and muddy compared to other machines' picture via RGB
I'm sure it's an upgrade. But how much of an upgrade is it?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:10 am 


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tjstogy wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
why on earth would you buy a $100 standalone transcoder and a retro access scart cable when you could get a HD retrovision component cable for the same price as the retro access cable alone and have the exact same quality?



A couple reasons: an HD retrovision snes/n64 cable costs $63 and works with only 2 consoles.. If someone were to go through the trouble of modding a N64 for RGB, presumably he/she would want RGB on other consoles. With a scart switch in the chain, you can have a ton of consoles hooked up to the transcoder. It's simply a more flexible option, with identical picture quality, and it doesn't cost much more.

But you're right, if OP never intended on playing other consoles, the HD retrovision cable would fit the bill.

SCART switches are extremely expensive, boutique items

SCART TVs in north america don't exist

There is zero reason to invest in SCART if you are starting from scratch. There are surplus professional quality switches selling for peanuts on ebay (extron, etc.) that work perfectly with RGB or YPbPr or both. You've got retro access making top notch RGB BNC cables, and HDRV making top notch YPbPr RCA cables. Both options are good, and both are 100% extron (or key digital, or whatever) friendly.

You can make the argument that it is more cost effective in the long run to go full RGB for cables and get a single transcoder for your consumer CRT and feed it from an extron matrix. (I'd still prefer component because consoles like the original xbox, PS2, and gamecube all output component natively without any BS, and all the 16 bit stuff that matters is HDRV compatible.)

RGB vs. YPbPr - either one is good, and both have situational merits, but recommending investing in a SCART setup in 2019 when you don't have any existing SCART equipment is dubious advice.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:12 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
if we are talking about a fair to middling sony consumer set in good condition from ~15 ago, there is a huge (to me) difference in color fidelity observed between s-video and YPrPb

I fully agree with this. you know my position on the matter. I'd never be caught dead playing SNES or PS1 in s-video on my consumer crt. it's RGB or bust for me with these consoles. without a doubt.


BUT....

when it comes specifically to the N64... Is there still a huge difference in colour fidelity between s-video and RGB on that particular machine? I'm asking you because I've never seen RGB on an N64 with my own eyes (only comparison pictures or videos online).
I have, however, seen countless people say that they thought colours on N64 through RGB, to them, felt a bit lifeless and muddy compared to other machines' picture via RGB
I'm sure it's an upgrade. But how much of an upgrade is it?

in my opinion it was every bit as valuable on the N64 as the SNES - I was actually using s-video on my N64 before I modded it

I think people just overlook things about the N64 because of it's low poly graphics, weird horizontal blur "filter" and general lack of popularity


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:44 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
SCART switches are extremely expensive, boutique items


Bandridge auto scart switch on ebay, $87. It's not top tier like the gscart, but it's good enough for me.

maxtherabbit wrote:
SCART TVs in north america don't exist


That's what the transcoder is for.

maxtherabbit wrote:
There is zero reason to invest in SCART if you are starting from scratch.


Many (most?) people here would disagree with this statement.

maxtherabbit wrote:
There are surplus professional quality switches selling for peanuts on ebay (extron, etc.) that work perfectly with RGB or YPbPr or both. You've got retro access making top notch RGB BNC cables, and HDRV making top notch YPbPr RCA cables. Both options are good, and both are 100% extron (or key digital, or whatever) friendly.


You happen to prefer component cables over scart cables. Nothing wrong with that. It's basically the same stuff, so it doesn't make my recommendations any less valid.

maxtherabbit wrote:
recommending investing in a SCART setup in 2019 when you don't have any existing SCART equipment is dubious advice.


Again, that's just your opinion. My advice is far from dubious. Ask how many people on this forum have scart setups in the United States.

BTW, I haven't been on these forums in a while, are you the latest troll?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 1:55 am 


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tjstogy wrote:

BTW, I haven't been on these forums in a while, are you the latest troll?

easy there chief, I'm not arguing against RGB, just the SCART connector

when we have a company like retro-access making really nice BNC cables for RGB, why would you bother getting yourself mired in an obscure, flimsy, obsolete connector? there is really no benefit - even your bandridge switch is more expensive than a surplus extron

like I said in the previous post, there is a solid argument to be made in favor of doing RGB cabling and getting a single transcoder for the display - I do personally happen to prefer component but that's beside the point here


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 2:07 am 


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so what are s-video cables options for OP? Or how could he test if the cable he has now, truly passes through an S-video signal?

I know TheFoo83 was mentioned, but is he still making cable? And I saw someone mention an Extron machine for testing s-video cable. but is there any other way to do so, with gear more commonly available?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 4:01 am 


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FinalBaton wrote:
I have, however, seen countless people say that they thought colours on N64 through RGB, to them, felt a bit lifeless and muddy compared to other machines' picture via RGB
I'm sure it's an upgrade. But how much of an upgrade is it?


It depends on what N64 RGB board you're referring to. If it's any of the analog video buffers such as Voultar's board or borti's N64 RGB amp, it's honestly hardly an upgrade over S-Video on a CRT. I can hardly tell a difference between the two on my PVM-20L5 and I was disappointed when I first saw it. This isn't to badmouth their designs but rather point out the limitations of console modding a N64. There's only so much you can do with hardware modding and achieving emulator quality probably will never happen. They look great however if you pair them with an OSSC and will virtually be on par with the UltraHDMI minus the lack of de-blur. The RGB boards I most recommend installing in a N64 are any of the universal digital-to-analog boards because of their firmware features, more specifically the ability to apply de-blur. With de-blur applied there is a noticeable improvement in picture quality. There are 4 of these boards that I'm aware of: Tim Worthington's N64RGB, borti's N64RGBv1, N64RGBv2, and N64Advanced. Out of all available N64 RGB options, borti's N64RGBv2 and N64Advanced will yield the sharpest RGB output. These boards are virtually unknown to a lot of people probably because they're not readily available for sale anywhere but they are the best RGB solutions for your N64.

mrwasi wrote:
Doom64 has different settings than Mario cause it's dark as all hell (pun intended).


After reading your post I think the best solution for you would be Borti's N64Advanced. It is by far and away the most versatile N64RGB board out there and it's loaded with options. It can output in component, RGBs, RGsB, RGBHV, line-double, line triple, de-interlace, scanlines, and more. You bring up the darkness of Doom 64 and the N64A deals with this nicely with the ability to adjust gamma. I took a quick video capture to demonstrate for you (joystick is super loose and there is some input lag, don't laugh :P):

https://streamable.com/0osca

Scanlines look terrible when capturing so just ignore that part. Also the capture settings aren't optimized.
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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:16 pm 



Joined: 16 Apr 2015
Posts: 49
Quote:
After reading your post I think the best solution for you would be Borti's N64Advanced. It is by far and away the most versatile N64RGB board out there and it's loaded with options. It can output in component, RGBs, RGsB, RGBHV, line-double, line triple, de-interlace, scanlines, and more. You bring up the darkness of Doom 64 and the N64A deals with this nicely with the ability to adjust gamma. I took a quick video capture to demonstrate for you (joystick is super loose and there is some input lag, don't laugh :P):

https://streamable.com/0osca

Scanlines look terrible when capturing so just ignore that part. Also the capture settings aren't optimized.
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Doom looks great! I didn't know so many options were available on a board.

PS This guy i the Bob Ross of soldering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 1mtcbfGzV8


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:27 pm 


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I use RGB but Mega (not sure if he posts here) makes a good case for stock S-video on a certain CRT display, I think his pictures look amazing personally and certainly gives my PC CRT RGB setup with deblur/AA patches/OSSC or my PVMs a run for their money.

Image
Image
Image
More here

I believe it's from a JVC 13" with a 325TVL tube and looks like it's using a slot/shadow mask? I kinda feel the N64's soupy textures work well with this sort of display.


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:42 pm 


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That is some dang fine looking N64 pictures from this JVC crt. About as good as I've seen the N64 look, honestly. I like these slot shadowmask sets, I'll probs get a JVC prosumer set like that one at some point, very lovely texture to the image on them. looks like it's best for that console to be displayed on a crt where the blanked lines aren't too apparent. That set is super flattering for the N64


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 12:50 pm 



Joined: 16 Apr 2015
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Nice! My co-worker is bringing in a 20" CRT for me today.
Not sure which brand but it will do until I find a JVC i'Art.
My dad gave me his old flat screen i'Art but it was too big to store, even at 27". The tube was close to 150lbs.
It was beautiful, component and S-video connections. The works.
I found a guy selling a 20" WEGA for $20 but I was surprised his model didn't have S-Video, just composite and component


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:20 am 


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I wish I found this forum earlier! So I bought these cables from eBay before reading this - https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-S-Video-A- ... 2749.l2649

Are they poop?

If so, can you please link some budget friendly s-video cables which actually work?

Hopefully the "wrong" ones I got are long enough so I can use them as a jump rope or something, ugh. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 10:06 am 


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@digitron Probably garbage, yeah. There's a great chance it just passes compsite video through the S-Video connector

Me I got some of these https://www.ebay.com/itm/The-best-S-vid ... ctupt=true
can't say for sure if they are recommended, as I haven't tested them. He claims it's a 1:1 copy of the official Nintendo cable. But is it as well put together/soldered? and are the parts as high quality? That I can't say. Lots of people happy with them, my guess is that they do pass S-Video, but that their shielding might not be the best. They're cheap though. On mine I didn't notice any checkerboard pattern of interference, I'll try to compare it to composite in the next few days

People genrally recommend to buy one from this guy, although at the moment I'm not sure if he has them in stock : https://www.ebay.ie/sch/thefoo.83/m.html


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:15 pm 


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Thanks! I'll grab a pair from the maxwar seller. :)


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:15 pm 


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Those cables are bullshit, here's my results with them:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:34 pm 



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The absolute best S-Video cable for the N64 (along with the SNES and GameCube) is the Monster Cable GCGL300 SV-10 GameCube S-Video A/V Cable. Although it's very expensive and hard to find, these cables provide the sharpest and cleanest image quality for an unmodified Nintendo 64. The difference between the official Nintendo Composite Cables that come included with the system and these is night and day.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:47 pm 


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Thanks for the recco GeneraLight :)


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:03 pm 


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Extrems wrote:
Those cables are bullshit, here's my results with them:

Image

which cable is that?


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:06 pm 


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"The best S-video cable for Nintendo SNES, N64, Game Cube."


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 4:51 pm 


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Damn, that's a good thing I was very cautious when describing it's performance. I had no idea it fared like this, only checked it's picture on a consumer crt and didn't see checkerboarding on there

I wasn't sure it was any good, that's why I asked people for their recommendations a couple posts up. but nobody was responding so I wanted to at least throw out an option out there

Did you buy it from the seller in Canada? I noticed there's a seller from the US now that has a listing with the same name


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 Post subject: Re: N64, S-VIDEO and the best way to play
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:21 pm 


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Of course I did. And I did so a year ago.


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