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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 6:43 pm 


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ASDR wrote:
vol.2 wrote:
honestly, the discoloration on those caps just looks like corrosion from a humid environment. it certainly wouldn't mean they are bad. i've learned that most caps die from drying out and look normal even after death


They have visibly domed and leaked electrolytic fluid through the pressure vent on the top. There's a crust of electrolytic residue on all of these. That's not corrosion from humidity. Especially since only one specific model of capacitor has leaked and all other caps in the console show no visible damage, neither are there signs of corrosion anywhere else.


ah. i couldn't tell all that from the photo. it's a miracle they are still hanging on


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:49 pm 


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vol.2 wrote:
ah. i couldn't tell all that from the photo. it's a miracle they are still hanging on


I think I actually cleaned them a bit before taking the picture. Like I said, the 1.4 was working just fine and the caps tested good. The 1.6 with similar looking caps was dead. At least one of the capacitors had actually just shorted. I'm surprised the board/PSU didn't have a blown fuse somewhere. Maybe it had a resettable fuse or some other protection circuit, didn't really investigate.

I recently fixed a PSU. The main smoothing capacitor was the issue. Like you said, it didn't look bad at all. I think when capacitors don't catastrophically fail they just dry out and you can't really tell. It looked fine but measured bad after removal. I think you can buy fancy LCR meters that are actually reliable at in-circuit capacitor testing, might be worth looking into if I can upgrade to something like that. Would be really helpful to be able to just check if a cap is OK. Those transistor tester devices are good enough to measure removed capacitors and can even give reasonable results for capacity measurements in-circuit, but ESR is not really working in-circuit.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:35 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Kez wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
I'm still not clear on what the issue is with Xbox HDMI specifically. I.e., does it look bad on HD flatscreens due to poor scaling or if it is something more fundamental with how the digital hd rgb signal is generated.


The issue is that Xbox does not output HDMI, the HDMI cables for Xbox take analogue component output and convert them to HDMI.. so the image quality is only as good as the transcoder/scaler built into the cable.


Ah, that changes things. If a color space transcoder is needed anyway, then I have to decide which is worth investing in.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 8:48 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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donluca wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Yes. There were a few but not many. Most large presentation displays like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NW-NEW-JERSEY- ... SwESRcArXs

And this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEC-Video-Moni ... SwWxNatfWl

There was also a generation of "EDTVs" that topped out at 480p just before 720p became a thing.

There is also a couple of 480p plasma monitorS made by Pioneer and Hantarex.

For regular size 480p pc monitors, you'd have to go way back to when IBM first created their vga standard.

My 480p CRTs are tri-sync arcade monitors. They produce a very different looking 480p image than your typical HD crt Pc monitor.



Interesting. I'm always looking for a good big Plasma but I just can't seem to find the ones Fudoh suggests. Maybe it's time to start tracking down Hantarex Plasmas.


I have never seen any of the large 480p 4:3 plasma monitors for sale in America and I keep an eye on eBay and Craigslist. I'm wondering if they were ever released over here. Hantarex monitors were sold in America but they are still fairly rare.

It is mainly out of curiosity that I still look for the 40" plasma though as I already have two nice large 480p capable 4:3 CRT monitors and some smaller 480p capable PC crt monitors.

The two 480p (native) flatscreens that are still relatively easy to find in America are the Sony LMD 1410 and the 2020. The 14" is regularly sold cheap on ebay. There is usually one or two of the 20" ones available too but they typically cost more. These are the ones that were meant to replace the PVM line although they got enough complaints to make them reopen their crt plant for a while.

Those two LMDs are optimized for 480 line video and they can accept a 15khz rgb signal as well as 480p.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:16 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Kez wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
I'm still not clear on what the issue is with Xbox HDMI specifically. I.e., does it look bad on HD flatscreens due to poor scaling or if it is something more fundamental with how the digital hd rgb signal is generated.


The issue is that Xbox does not output HDMI, the HDMI cables for Xbox take analogue component output and convert them to HDMI.. so the image quality is only as good as the transcoder/scaler built into the cable.


Ah, that changes things. If a color space transcoder is needed anyway, then I have to decide which is worth investing in.


http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/ossc.html

tl:dr

ossc is a line doubler. it's really fast, has good (but not perfect) compatibility and on-going development with the possibility of improved features over time.

framemiester is a proper scaling processor. thusly, it makes 480i look better, but it has a bit of lag and it's compatibility is slightly less great. they may improve it, but don't hold your breath.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:20 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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I'm not looking for a scaler.

The Xbox outputs 480p. My monitor natively displays 480p.

I'd need a transcoder for component to rgb (without changing the res).


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:29 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
I'm not looking for a scaler.

The Xbox outputs 480p. My monitor natively displays 480p.

I'd need a transcoder for component to rgb (without changing the res).


doh! oh yeah. ossc is reportedly better for 480p sources. it's in the comparison section of fudoh's article.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 04, 2019 9:35 pm 


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OSSC + HDMI->VGA would actually work pretty well though.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 12:05 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
I'm not looking for a scaler.

The Xbox outputs 480p. My monitor natively displays 480p.

I'd need a transcoder for component to rgb (without changing the res).

I've got an old VD-Z3 I used to use for exactly that I could sell you on the cheap side

or you could go with a GBS8200 with custom firmware - rama got it working in passthrough mode as a lag free transcoder


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:06 pm 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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maxtherabbit wrote:
you could go with a GBS8200 with custom firmware - rama got it working in passthrough mode as a lag free transcoder


Still some quirks left to work out. It's a smaller feature that I haven't spent enough time on yet.
But yeah, the hardware can do lag-free transcoding in high quality, and the XBOX as source is stable with not too many surprises.

Edit:
Well, gave it a quick test. Component to RGBHV in bypass mode (so it's just the ADC sampling and directly converting to RGB > DAC outputting to the VGA port).
Seems to work fine :)
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:01 pm 



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Why would I buy a scaler to do transcoding in passthrough mode?

Surely it would make more sense financially to just get a dedicated transcoder.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 07, 2019 11:04 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Why would I buy a scaler to do transcoding in passthrough mode?

Surely it would make more sense financially to just get a dedicated transcoder.

Yeah no, the gbs is like $25 lol


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 3:42 am 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Why would I buy a scaler to do transcoding in passthrough mode?

Surely it would make more sense financially to just get a dedicated transcoder.

Yeah no, the gbs is like $25 lol

They're also very easy to source. A dedicated YPbPr->RGB transcoder is going to be extremely rare and likely to be listed at several hundred dollars.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:15 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
Why would I buy a scaler to do transcoding in passthrough mode?

Surely it would make more sense financially to just get a dedicated transcoder.


you're 100% right. i guess in my mind, i just wouldn't want such a specific thing. i would prefer to have one device that can do both. i dont really keep my systems all out and setup, so i wouldn't need a specific device just for transcoding


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 1:18 pm 



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Sure, the GBS is a strange tool for this job, but I'm certain you can't find anything cheaper.
It's a weird situation where the most basic implementation of a transcoder would still cost more than a full blown scaler board.

Maybe there's some other Open Hardware / community project specifically for transcoding.
It is a little tricky to do, due to the need to cleanly separate video from embedded sync on the luma line.
I'd like to have such a device myself, really :p


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:35 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 619
nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Why would I buy a scaler to do transcoding in passthrough mode?

Surely it would make more sense financially to just get a dedicated transcoder.

Yeah no, the gbs is like $25 lol

They're also very easy to source. A dedicated YPbPr->RGB transcoder is going to be extremely rare and likely to be listed at several hundred dollars.


Component to vga transcoders are neither rare or several hundred dollars. They are plentiful on eBay and start at $19 and a good one can be had for $60 used or $80 new.

$25 does sound cheap for the gbs if it can do a good job with the component to rgb conversion without introducing lag or changing the resolution. I'll look into it.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:55 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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Classicgamer wrote:
Component to vga transcoders are neither rare or several hundred dollars. They are plentiful on eBay and start at $19 and a good one can be had for $60 used or $80 new.

Those $19 transcoders are actually scalers. Plain transcoders seem to start at about that $60 mark (A couple of Mayflash models) and jump up to $150 for the Audio Authority transcoders. There are a few actual transcoders on eBay, but I would not describe them as plentiful.

On top of that, these convert to RGBHV; so, if you need your output in RGBS for a SCART application, you'll still need to spend another $25-$35 minimum on an RGB interface, maybe $10 on BNC cables if you're running this to a CrossPoint, and another $13 on a sync attenuator if your ~$45 BNC-to-SCART adapter/cable doesn't bring down the 5Vp-p sync to 1Vp-p.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:00 pm 


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...or just buy a couple diodes (0,01€ each) so you get a C-sync signal from the H and V sync.

Or if you're 100% sure that they output both H and V sync with negative polarity, you can just join them with a couple of resistors.

But yeah, the GBS is a *fantastic* solution as a transcoder and the quality seems pretty good.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 8:17 pm 



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There must be some kind of single IC solution out there to extract timing and convert YPbPr to RGB + some kind of sync.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:30 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
[another $13 on a sync attenuator

what did you have in mind for this purpose? I was looking into something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-16-dB-Inline-Attenuator-Pad-F-type-coaxial-connection-male-female-ATT-416/280736106125


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:34 pm 


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@classicgamer

here's a listing I found of someone selling the same YPbPr -> RGB transcoder I have:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VDigi-VD-Z3-COMPONENT-TO-VGA-Transcoder-V-Digi-Xbox-GameCube-PS2/323771553687

it's an auction, but the starting price is really low and no bids yet

this transcoder is pretty nice, no black crush and no lag - it also can do RGBS or RGBHV depending on a DIP switch setting

480i (and 240p!) works, but only in RGBS mode


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:52 am 



Joined: 02 Mar 2017
Posts: 924
The only YPbPr to RGBS (or RGBHV) converter I like is the Audio Authority 9A65. I have the Extron CVC 200, 300, and Garo as well. Audio Authority is the only flawless one I've used, and it works on 240p, 480i, and 480p (don't think I tried 720p or 1080i). Hard to find though.

Extron's are great, but need a dial switched if you go from 240p to 480p for example which is annoying. people have issues with the new version of the Garo so I wouldn't suggest that (mine seems to be fine with the little bit of testing I did though).


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 2:08 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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maxtherabbit wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
[another $13 on a sync attenuator

what did you have in mind for this purpose? I was looking into something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-16-dB-Inline-Attenuator-Pad-F-type-coaxial-connection-male-female-ATT-416/280736106125

I'm only aware of the ones sold by Retro-Access.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:09 am 


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Dochartaigh wrote:
The only YPbPr to RGBS (or RGBHV) converter I like is the Audio Authority 9A65. I have the Extron CVC 200, 300, and Garo as well. Audio Authority is the only flawless one I've used, and it works on 240p, 480i, and 480p (don't think I tried 720p or 1080i). Hard to find though.

Extron's are great, but need a dial switched if you go from 240p to 480p for example which is annoying. people have issues with the new version of the Garo so I wouldn't suggest that (mine seems to be fine with the little bit of testing I did though).


Can confirm the AA is great. It's done the job wonderfully every time I've used it.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:24 am 


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nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
[another $13 on a sync attenuator

what did you have in mind for this purpose? I was looking into something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-16-dB-Inline-Attenuator-Pad-F-type-coaxial-connection-male-female-ATT-416/280736106125

I'm only aware of the ones sold by Retro-Access.


hmm. wondering if this might address an old issue i had with a PS2>Extron>PVM-2030 where i get like four lines of horizontal tearing at the top of the screen. i never did figure out how to get that right, and it isn't perfectly centered if just patch the PS2 to the PVM

would you happen to know what this is intended to correct?


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:32 am 



Joined: 11 Dec 2014
Posts: 342
Classicgamer wrote:
Dochartaigh wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Given the Xbox's higher resolutions, is it better to use one with an HD flatscreen than a 480p crt? My PS3 monitor works with 480p component.I'd be ok with switching to 480i for house of the Dead 3 on my rgb CRT.


Others pointed this out, but a 480p CRT still destroys anything I've seen upscaled on my 1080p and 4K flatscreens - doesn't matter if I'm using the OSSC, XRGB-mini, Extron DSC, or any combination of the above - still looks better on a quality 480p CRT.


Yeah, that's been my experience with my other consoles too. Even 720p PS3 games.

Also, just because an old console can output a 720p or 1080i signal, it doesn't mean it will look good. A lot depends on how it is generated. Most older consoles seem to do a horrible job of upscaling and they aren't really powerful enough to render 3d graphics in higher resolutions.

I'm going to start with an HDMI to VGA set-up as I already have everything to make it work. Then I'll see how much I like the Xbox before deciding how much I want to invest in mods or additional transcoders.

I'm still not clear on what the issue is with Xbox HDMI specifically. I.e., does it look bad on HD flatscreens due to poor scaling or if it is something more fundamental with how the digital hd rgb signal is generated.

It looks bad on HDTVs because of the quality of the conversion+scaling in those cheap cables. But also mainly because low resolution 3D rendered content upscaled to a much higher resolution fixed resolution display is never going to look as good as it would on a display that can display the native signal 1:1. (Doubly so since these systems often do not feature good texture filtering or any kind of decent Anti-Aliasing which compounds it. Having good AA makes the upscale look less harsh ex http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/133632 looks good with integer scaling.
http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/133634 http://www.screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/133635 This game at 480p native with or without AA looks better than this hands down)


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:28 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1366
vol.2 wrote:
nmalinoski wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
what did you have in mind for this purpose? I was looking into something like this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Pack-16-dB-Inline-Attenuator-Pad-F-type-coaxial-connection-male-female-ATT-416/280736106125

I'm only aware of the ones sold by Retro-Access.


hmm. wondering if this might address an old issue i had with a PS2>Extron>PVM-2030 where i get like four lines of horizontal tearing at the top of the screen. i never did figure out how to get that right, and it isn't perfectly centered if just patch the PS2 to the PVM

would you happen to know what this is intended to correct?

It's to bring TTL sync down to consumer-grade 75Ohm. From my earlier post:
nmalinoski wrote:
...and another $13 on a sync attenuator if your ~$45 BNC-to-SCART adapter/cable doesn't bring down the 5Vp-p sync to 1Vp-p.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:30 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 619
nmalinoski wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Component to vga transcoders are neither rare or several hundred dollars. They are plentiful on eBay and start at $19 and a good one can be had for $60 used or $80 new.

Those $19 transcoders are actually scalers. Plain transcoders seem to start at about that $60 mark (A couple of Mayflash models) and jump up to $150 for the Audio Authority transcoders. There are a few actual transcoders on eBay, but I would not describe them as plentiful.

On top of that, these convert to RGBHV; so, if you need your output in RGBS for a SCART application, you'll still need to spend another $25-$35 minimum on an RGB interface, maybe $10 on BNC cables if you're running this to a CrossPoint, and another $13 on a sync attenuator if your ~$45 BNC-to-SCART adapter/cable doesn't bring down the 5Vp-p sync to 1Vp-p.


My arcade monitors work in RGBHV and RGBS in CGA, EGA and vga so that sort of thing is no issue for me. I also have two Extron interfaces.

I don't think I have ever seen a 480p capable monitor that only accepted RGBS though.

By plentiful, I mean that when you search for component to VGA transcoder on eBay, you get pages of results. If they were rare, I would expect them to be few and far between because that is what rare means.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:32 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
@classicgamer

here's a listing I found of someone selling the same YPbPr -> RGB transcoder I have:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/VDigi-VD-Z3-COMPONENT-TO-VGA-Transcoder-V-Digi-Xbox-GameCube-PS2/323771553687

it's an auction, but the starting price is really low and no bids yet

this transcoder is pretty nice, no black crush and no lag - it also can do RGBS or RGBHV depending on a DIP switch setting

480i (and 240p!) works, but only in RGBS mode


Do you consider it to be a quality product? If so, I'll try and see if I can grab it at a low ball price if there is no reserve.


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 Post subject: Re: Any reason to buy an original Xbox in 2019?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:38 pm 



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vol.2 wrote:

hmm. wondering if this might address an old issue i had with a PS2>Extron>PVM-2030 where i get like four lines of horizontal tearing at the top of the screen. i never did figure out how to get that right, and it isn't perfectly centered if just patch the PS2 to the PVM

would you happen to know what this is intended to correct?
[/quote][/quote]

Tearing is not a transcoder related issue. It's a scaling / frame rate issue. E.g. You don't get tearing when you run Groovymame on a crt because it matches the original refresh rate. If you are not changing the res and refresh rate then it should not happen.


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