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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 12:23 am 



Joined: 18 May 2015
Posts: 11
TrantaLocked_ wrote:
Eatnumber1, I think I might be on to something too, with very similar results to your's although my Sharp TV does use PWM and the frequency is probably 120Hz or 240Hz based on reviews of similar TV models (1)(2). In my case the starting value isn't 100% stable like your's, but rather gravitates down at about .01ms / s until hitting a value near 22ms and staying there. I do think it's possible that it's due to refresh rate sync and not PWM in both our cases, with your 120Hz TV naturally having a 8ms range while my 60Hz TV having a 16ms range. I think that it's possible due to what the sync state is when the Time Sleuth pairs with the TV. At time of pairing, if the TS sends the output just after or just before the TV's most recent frame finished drawing (plus base input lag), or somewhere in between, that determines what the remaining time the TS output needs to wait for the current frame to finish drawing for the rest of the session, until power cycle for either TS or the TV. The minimum lag of my Sharp TV is 22ms, so to see a 38ms starting lag value, the first TS output would need to be sent just after ~10ms into the TV's second to last frame drawing before paring, and just before ~10ms for a 22ms starting value.

I've been power cycling the Time Sleuth and the TV in different combinations and have noticed what the starting values tend to be. The range of starting values for 720p is 22ms-38ms, and I believe the starting value is random (as it naturally should be, but certain conditions can lead to a higher likelihood of a particular starting value). In my case, the difference between 720p and 1080p is that for 1080p I see the full cycle play out within 10 seconds, but the other resolutions give me a more stable (but still changing) starting number. Maybe just the TV's PWM being different depending on input resolution. Could chriz2600 help here?


I've been having this same exact problem with my new monitor (1440p 240hz but set at 60hz). Every time I switch inputs or power cycle the Time Sleuth, I get very different results varying from 9ms to 25ms. Sometimes it also does that thing where it slowly trickles down to from 25ms to 9ms over a period of time and then jump right back up to 25ms. When I do powercycle/change inputs/change resolution, the average lag remains somewhat constant (outside of that slow trickle down) but the number is always different. I just sold my Leo Bodnar lag tester so I don't have another tester to compare it with so I've been going crazy if it's my new monitor is going nuts or my lag tester is going nuts.

This is the first monitor I've ever owned that does have a higher refresh rate than 60hz. The Time Sleuth never had any of these issues on the other 60hz monitors I've tested


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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2020 2:37 am 


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Joined: 20 Oct 2016
Posts: 105
Location: San Diego, California
Zerp wrote:
TrantaLocked_ wrote:
Eatnumber1, I think I might be on to something too, with very similar results to your's although my Sharp TV does use PWM and the frequency is probably 120Hz or 240Hz based on reviews of similar TV models (1)(2). In my case the starting value isn't 100% stable like your's, but rather gravitates down at about .01ms / s until hitting a value near 22ms and staying there. I do think it's possible that it's due to refresh rate sync and not PWM in both our cases, with your 120Hz TV naturally having a 8ms range while my 60Hz TV having a 16ms range. I think that it's possible due to what the sync state is when the Time Sleuth pairs with the TV. At time of pairing, if the TS sends the output just after or just before the TV's most recent frame finished drawing (plus base input lag), or somewhere in between, that determines what the remaining time the TS output needs to wait for the current frame to finish drawing for the rest of the session, until power cycle for either TS or the TV. The minimum lag of my Sharp TV is 22ms, so to see a 38ms starting lag value, the first TS output would need to be sent just after ~10ms into the TV's second to last frame drawing before paring, and just before ~10ms for a 22ms starting value.

I've been power cycling the Time Sleuth and the TV in different combinations and have noticed what the starting values tend to be. The range of starting values for 720p is 22ms-38ms, and I believe the starting value is random (as it naturally should be, but certain conditions can lead to a higher likelihood of a particular starting value). In my case, the difference between 720p and 1080p is that for 1080p I see the full cycle play out within 10 seconds, but the other resolutions give me a more stable (but still changing) starting number. Maybe just the TV's PWM being different depending on input resolution. Could chriz2600 help here?


I've been having this same exact problem with my new monitor (1440p 240hz but set at 60hz). Every time I switch inputs or power cycle the Time Sleuth, I get very different results varying from 9ms to 25ms. Sometimes it also does that thing where it slowly trickles down to from 25ms to 9ms over a period of time and then jump right back up to 25ms. When I do powercycle/change inputs/change resolution, the average lag remains somewhat constant (outside of that slow trickle down) but the number is always different. I just sold my Leo Bodnar lag tester so I don't have another tester to compare it with so I've been going crazy if it's my new monitor is going nuts or my lag tester is going nuts.

This is the first monitor I've ever owned that does have a higher refresh rate than 60hz. The Time Sleuth never had any of these issues on the other 60hz monitors I've tested


I can explain this - I've seen the same thing using my home-grown PiLagTesterPRO. It's not PWM at all:

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... g-and.html


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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:53 pm 


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Joined: 20 Oct 2016
Posts: 105
Location: San Diego, California
In fact I've run into this drifting lag issue so much now that I've written up the cause in detail and even added a tool to measure it.

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... -dont.html


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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:55 am 


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Joined: 24 Jun 2020
Posts: 33
xeos wrote:

I can explain this - I've seen the same thing using my home-grown PiLagTesterPRO. It's not PWM at all:

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... g-and.html


Quote:
What's crazy is how it behaves given a 59.94hz signal. You'd think the framebuffer would no longer be needed, or at least the TV would synchronize with the input. But it doesn't. Instead the TV starts drawing some fixed period of time after it's turned on, with no attempt to synchronize with the input's vsync. So one day your input lag will be 40ms, and the next it will be 51ms, and on your birthday it will be 35ms.


You have got to be f'ing kidding me. Honestly it is always something new to make me dislike TVs further, never anything that makes me like them.


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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:27 am 


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Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3223
Location: Ireland
I think the more we understand and shout about this the more likely something is to be done about it. Years back TV manufacturers could care less about input lag, but then a sizeable chunk of their customer base who play videogames made noise about it, review sites started talking about lag and we got companies like LG actually focusing on adding good gaming features.

The problem this time I suppose is that VRR etc would eliminate this issue but won't apply to older systems, which of course become niche so manufacturers care much less.
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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:17 pm 


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Joined: 20 Oct 2016
Posts: 105
Location: San Diego, California
BuckoA51 wrote:
The problem this time I suppose is that VRR etc would eliminate this issue but won't apply to older systems, which of course become niche so manufacturers care much less.


You don't need VRR - only about half the TVs I've tested show this problem. All the results in red are the type that have this problem:

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... esult.html


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 Post subject: Re: Time Sleuth Lag Tester
PostPosted: Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:26 am 


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Joined: 02 Oct 2010
Posts: 3223
Location: Ireland
Quote:
You don't need VRR - only about half the TVs I've tested show this problem. All the results in red are the type that have this problem:


I think you misunderstand me. I know you don't need VRR to eliminate this problem, but a VRR equipped console and TV used together is guaranteed to eliminate this problem. My point is that, all a TV manufacturer needs do is include VRR and it will get a thumbs up as a great gaming TV from the mainstream media. It may be great for modern and future games consoles, but not so great for those of us playing older systems.
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