Voultar recommended T12 soldering station, buyer beware

[nmalinoski]

I agree with voultar, worrying about the thing killing you or burning your house down is pretty silly

That's why we have circuit breakers

Not exactly a 1-to-1 comparison, but I'm not sure a circuit breaker would have helped that faulty S-993A desoldering gun I bought on eBay (and returned) a while back; the thermal regular went bananas the second time I turned the gun on and started melting the plastic ring holding the heating element to the gun. Had I not unplugged it when I did, it could very well have fallen off its stand and started a fire.

[xwred5]

That's why we have circuit breakers

Let's use some Ohm's law to see what damage we can do.

If you have a standard 15A breaker, and you are in a 115V house you are pulling 1,725 Watts before the breaker trips.

Fire:
Based on where you are dissipating the power will dictate the temperature rise. This is why your toaster toasts and doesn't trip the breaker. If you shoved paper in your toaster, and tried toasting it, your breaker would allow you to start a fire because it doesn't need to pull 15A to start the paper on fire, it's operating as a normal toaster.

Death:
Assuming your hand to foot resistance is about 1000Ω
If you are pulling 115V, and I use I=V/R, that means if I = 115mA. That can stop your heart... and that's only 13.225W.

Standard home breakers are there to prevent you from pulling too much current in the wires in your house and starting a fire because you plugged too much crap in.

We all need to get over the idea that shitty electronics can't kill you.

This also applies to all the questionable 3rd party AC adapters we buy to power our retro stuff --- I highly recommend sticking to Firebrand X's list of Triad power supplies.

[maxtherabbit]

That's why we have circuit breakers

Let's use some Ohm's law to see what damage we can do.

If you have a standard 15A breaker, and you are in a 115V house you are pulling 1,725 Watts before the breaker trips.

Fire:
Based on where you are dissipating the power will dictate the temperature rise. This is why your toaster toasts and doesn't trip the breaker. If you shoved paper in your toaster, and tried toasting it, your breaker would allow you to start a fire because it doesn't need to pull 15A to start the paper on fire, it's operating as a normal toaster.

Death:
Assuming your hand to foot resistance is about 1000Ω
If you are pulling 115V, and I use I=V/R, that means if I = 115mA. That can stop your heart... and that's only 13.225W.

Standard home breakers are there to prevent you from pulling too much current in the wires in your house and starting a fire because you plugged too much crap in.

We all need to get over the idea that shitty electronics can't kill you.

This goes towards all the crappy 3rd party AC adapters we buy to power our retro stuff --- I highly recommend sticking to Firebrand X's list of Triad power supplies.

1000 ohms must be a pretty poor assumption then, because I've been shocked directly by 110VAC mains many times, and it just tingles a bit

unless I'M ALREADY DEAD????

nothing inside a soldering station is going to be 1/10 as flammable as a wad of notebook paper

[thebigcheese]

Well, also worth considering that in the US we use AC from the mains, in many other parts of the world they use DC. This is relevant because with AC (which has also electrocuted me a couple times), you tend to just start vibrating and it's not so bad. With DC, IIRC, it causes you to clench to the thing that is electrocuting you, so it's a real problem. So again, just because it happens to be fine in the US doesn't mean it will be fine in other parts of the world.

[Kez]

60hz AC is about as dangerous it gets, and does cause muscle contractions. Also I don't think any country uses DC mains.

[AndehX]

pretty much every country uses AC mains, weather it be 110v/120v/240v

[ASDR]

There are no countries using DC mains. (Maybe some island nation of one runs of a 9V battery, I don't know)

In Europe it's very common for houses to not have RCD/GFIs, IIRC in the UK over >40% of houses lack them. For the longest time electrical code only required them in bathrooms and kitchens (water). 16A mains fuses are not going to do shit to protect you. Saying 'I survived a couple of 110V shocks and therefore it's OK' is like saying that you smoked for ten years and haven't gotten cancer, what's the big deal.

Looks like Voultar/RetroRGB did not appreciate any of this:

https://twitter.com/RetroRGB/status/1110959298413318144

I generally have a very high opinion of those two, but here instead of informing their followers of the potential safety hazards clearly pictured & explained or maybe just telling them that you might indeed get a different device when buying from Bg they're just being snarky and make themselves feel superior to lowly forum dwellers. That's really disappointing, I would've expected better from them. Ah well, consider me a troll jackass if you want, but if this thread encouraged a single person to open up their device before using it or to think critically about fuses/grounding/polarized plugs/transformers/etc., I'd say that's a success

[maxtherabbit]

There are no countries using DC mains. (Maybe some island nation of one runs of a 9V battery, I don't know)

In Europe it's very common for houses to not have RCD/GFIs, IIRC in the UK over >40% of houses lack them. For the longest time electrical code only required them in bathrooms and kitchens (water). 16A mains fuses are not going to do shit to protect you. Saying 'I survived a couple of 110V shocks and therefore it's OK' is like saying that you smoked for ten years and haven't gotten cancer, what's the big deal.

Looks like Voultar/RetroRGB did not appreciate any of this:

https://twitter.com/RetroRGB/status/1110959298413318144

I generally have a very high opinion of those two, but here instead of informing their followers of the potential safety hazards clearly pictured & explained or maybe just telling them that you might indeed get a different device when buying from Bg they're just being snarky and make themselves feel superior to lowly forum dwellers. That's really disappointing, I would've expected better from them. Ah well, consider me a troll jackass if you want, but if this thread encouraged a single person to open up their device before using it or to think critically about fuses/grounding/polarized plugs/transformers/etc., I'd say that's a success

I did not mean to imply that the mains breakers will protect anyone from being shocked, I mentioned them because the REAL risk of electrical fire is from overheating wire within walls - which is precisely what they DO protect against

The reason GFI has traditionally only been required in "wet" areas is because the potential of having wet hands/feet can increase the conductivity of the body to the point where the mains becomes deadly - IMO a tacit acknowledgement that in dry conditions it is not terribly life threatening

Just about every tinkerer I know has been shocked by 110VAC a few times in their life, and none have suffered more than a bit of comical quivering. Not saying you should go out and grab a distribution panel with both fists robocop style, because that very well might kill you, but incidental contact with 110VAC mains in normal circumstances is not going to kill anyone.

I don't think you are trolling or a jackass, I believe this thread is completely in good faith. And I appreciate you drawing attention to the quality disparity that exists within cheap imports. I just wish more people would realize how durable the human body really is and leave the fear behind to become a true animal.

[donluca]

Looks like Voultar/RetroRGB did not appreciate any of this:

https://twitter.com/RetroRGB/status/1110959298413318144

That's... depressing, to say the least, I really didn't expect such a reaction, especially in the face of such an important topic.

I mean, you can just go on and don't talk about it if it's not your thing, but maybe a little warning like "we have been informed that the xxx soldering station may have a potential issue due to the lack of proper grounding. Please open your station and make sure it's like in the following picture" would have been a mature way of handling this.

Instead it goes on saying that people are trolling him.

And LMAO at the "I eat 110v for breakfast" guy. Hopefully he doesn't get cocky about it and makes a youtube video shocking himself. That would surely win a Darwin Award.

Meh, the more I read those kinda things and the more happier I feel about my decision to stop helping people with mods and stuff, which I made 10+ years ago. Talk about foresight.

[maxtherabbit]

And LMAO at the "I eat 110v for breakfast" guy. Hopefully he doesn't get cocky about it and makes a youtube video shocking himself. That would surely win a Darwin Award.

he's right here m8

and I don't make videos, yall couldn't withstand the swole

[ldeveraux]

There are no countries using DC mains. (Maybe some island nation of one runs of a 9V battery, I don't know)

In Europe it's very common for houses to not have RCD/GFIs, IIRC in the UK over >40% of houses lack them. For the longest time electrical code only required them in bathrooms and kitchens (water). 16A mains fuses are not going to do shit to protect you. Saying 'I survived a couple of 110V shocks and therefore it's OK' is like saying that you smoked for ten years and haven't gotten cancer, what's the big deal.

Looks like Voultar/RetroRGB did not appreciate any of this:

https://twitter.com/RetroRGB/status/1110959298413318144

I generally have a very high opinion of those two, but here instead of informing their followers of the potential safety hazards clearly pictured & explained or maybe just telling them that you might indeed get a different device when buying from Bg they're just being snarky and make themselves feel superior to lowly forum dwellers. That's really disappointing, I would've expected better from them. Ah well, consider me a troll jackass if you want, but if this thread encouraged a single person to open up their device before using it or to think critically about fuses/grounding/polarized plugs/transformers/etc., I'd say that's a success

I could understand why people would not want to frequent forums; often full of trolls and naysayers just trying to pick a fight. I took that tweet as a dismissal of this thread, but done with tongue in cheek. Who knows, I guess you'd have to ask RetroRGB directly and beg for a reply. (see, more tongue in cheek!!). Maybe he will (or has) addressed it in his podcast; but I stopped listening after finding out it was mainly a rehash of the blog.

But I do appreciate this thread greatly, so much that I finally opened my T12. It's exactly the same as that in Voultar's video, so it seems to be legit. Still, buying from BG was more of a hassle than not, so if there's an alternative, I'd likely take it.

[Kez]

The thing with electric shocks is moving from "it just tingles a bit" to "my heart stopped working" really doesn't take that much. There are a ton of factors affecting the path it will take and the current you draw, particularly where you are grounded to and how moist your skin is. Hand to hand is the most dangerous as the current passes directly through your heart and can cause it to rapidly contract, potentially sending it into fibrillation which can kill you very quickly. It's good that you've never had anything bad happen as a result of being shocked, but it certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't take any precautions against it.

[maxtherabbit]

The thing with electric shocks is moving from "it just tingles a bit" to "my heart stopped working" really doesn't take that much. There are a ton of factors affecting the path it will take and the current you draw, particularly where you are grounded to and how moist your skin is. Hand to hand is the most dangerous as the current passes directly through your heart and can cause it to rapidly contract, potentially sending it into fibrillation which can kill you very quickly. It's good that you've never had anything bad happen as a result of being shocked, but it certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't take any precautions against it.

I always observe the one hand rule when working with live mains

[xwred5]

Retro Gaming: Where some are concerned about 3.3V flash potentially killing our consoles but argue against 115V being dangerous.

Edit: and to be clear. If you want to discuss the safety of a device and if some people are just being overly cautious-that is fine. But to argue that home voltages aren't dangerous is really just stupid.

[RGB0b]

Looks like Voultar/RetroRGB did not appreciate any of this:

https://twitter.com/RetroRGB/status/1110959298413318144

I generally have a very high opinion of those two, but here instead of informing their followers of the potential safety hazards clearly pictured & explained or maybe just telling them that you might indeed get a different device when buying from Bg they're just being snarky and make themselves feel superior to lowly forum dwellers. That's really disappointing, I would've expected better from them. Ah well, consider me a troll jackass if you want, but if this thread encouraged a single person to open up their device before using it or to think critically about fuses/grounding/polarized plugs/transformers/etc., I'd say that's a success

That was a light tease that you ALL took the wrong way. I was specifically referring to someone else on this forum (no one in this topic) about the trolling*, but included a dig about this, just to be silly.

It's very easy for everyone in one forum (or discord server, or twitter chain, etc) to spiral and get themselves all worked up. There's good people in this thread having a fair and helpful discussion. Don't ruin it by shit-talking...it'll just make your real work seem less credible.

Back to what I come here for: Nerd shit. What's the consensus so far? To ASMR's point, serious injury from working on a CRT is a real fear that's a DIRECT result of the CRT; I'm fat and pushing 40, so if I touch a 36" tube with a full charge, I'm probably ending up in the hospital...or at least knocked out, pants shit, pissed myself, etc. All bad. Technically you can die while RGB modding a SNES, but obsessing over rare and near-impossible factors isn't worth our time.

So, if someone were to buy one of these that were bad and ONLY plugged it in when they use it, what's the chance of REAL risk? Is there a clear and concise answer yet?


*and seriously, is anyone here a moderator or admin? I'd really like to have a quick chat about the real troll...and I have another question as well.

[donluca]

Good to hear you weren't referring to this topic, I take it all back and say sorry, but I have to admit that the tweet was pretty ambiguous.

The thing with mains voltage is that it doesn't matter what the chances are that you might get shocked: one could be (and *will be* under most circumstances) fatal, you don't get a run back.

So even if it is 1 in a billion, it's still enough to care and make sure you know what you're dealing with. It's not worth risking your life over $50. If someone here is a complete beginner and was thinking about picking one of these up, it might be worth it looking into other, safer alternatives.

EDIT: about admins, I think you can shoot system11 a PM to have something sorted. Actually, I have a piece of CSS code I'd love to give to improve image handling on this board and avoid having huge pictures taking up all of the screen.

[Konsolkongen]

Don't plug anything that's poorly designed into your mains outlet. EVER. Why even discuss this?

I'm sure Voultars video is great, and that the version of this soldering iron he owns is just fine. But it would suit him to update his video with a warning that some of these irons are potentially dangerous, so no one buys them. Even better he should consider taking his video down if a reliable source of good ones can't be located.

I think ASDR did a great job informing others of this potential danger

[RGB0b]

So that's the one thing I'm not understanding - How can main voltage can shock someone using this iron for a few hours? Every building (including the beat-up old buildings around me in NYC) is forced to have SOME protection against the mains. Circuit breakers are most common. I've seen some places still use fuses (although I think it's illegal). Unless I'm missing something (very possible), how would this iron be any more dangerous than a $10 heater from Walmart, or a crappy coffee pot with no off switch? For the record, those DO cause fires REGULARLY! I have a few fireman friends and they always warn about those...but I still use space heaters, I just unplug when I'm done.

If it's already been covered just respond with a link to the post...I certainly don't want to waste anyone's time, I just don't get it.


BTW, I love the idea about auto image handling!

[RGB0b]

it would suit him to update his video with a warning that some of these irons are potentially dangerous,

It's been awhile since I've seen his video, but I'm pretty sure he went into detail about how not all of these cases have the same guts. My concern is if there's ANY seller (Amazon, Bangood, etc) that can be trusted to only sell the good ones.

[Lawfer]

Don't plug anything that's poorly designed into your mains outlet. EVER.

Pretty much, yeah. The problem is how to know what is poorly designed or not? Unless you open it and check inside and can make sense of it. Most people won't open their electronics to check the inside and even if they did they do not have the minimum required knowledge to be able to tell the difference.

[xwred5]

So, if someone were to buy one of these that were bad and ONLY plugged it in when they use it, what's the chance of REAL risk? Is there a clear and concise answer yet?

If you really got a jacked up unit, probably you would plug it in and the internal fuse would blow and/or you would get magic smoke. If you are extremely unlucky, shock/fire is possible. Keep in mind, that even if they did a factory power-on test, at $50 they are not doing a burn in test. Additionally the iron also traveled across the globe since it was last powered on.

Failure over time can be dielectric breakdown, which is a function of time and voltage. Additionally the transformer likely does not have a proper insulation system - which means the insulators have not been evaluated for performance at an elevated temperature (> Class A). Again, likely worst case: magic smoke that probably smells a bit worse and maybe self extinguishing flames.

I wouldn't really leave it plugged in. I doubt it will kill you. But there are some not so good things going on inside.

I also don't leave my 30 year old consoles plugged in - I use Voultar's recommended Belkin surge protector with a wireless switch.

[Danexmurder]

I bought one of these from Amazon. I'm beginnerish. I'd be willing to crack mine open and fix any problems but I don't know what I'm looking for. It would be awesome if someone could post a "Here's what to fix to make it safe" video or series of images.

[zakk]

So that's the one thing I'm not understanding - How can main voltage can shock someone using this iron for a few hours? Every building (including the beat-up old buildings around me in NYC) is forced to have SOME protection against the mains. Circuit breakers are most common. I've seen some places still use fuses (although I think it's illegal). Unless I'm missing something (very possible), how would this iron be any more dangerous than a $10 heater from Walmart, or a crappy coffee pot with no off switch? For the record, those DO cause fires REGULARLY! I have a few fireman friends and they always warn about those...but I still use space heaters, I just unplug when I'm done.

If it's already been covered just respond with a link to the post...I certainly don't want to waste anyone's time, I just don't get it.


BTW, I love the idea about auto image handling!

Mains voltage can shock you with some of these because they are designed/manufactured poorly and potentially energize the outer case. You brush against it the wrong way and get a mains voltage shock (imagine dropping your now hot iron in your lap when this happens...). Yes, in theory a circuit breaker will 'protect' you, but here's the thing: Electric safety is not supposed to be a thing where ONE component is what's protecting you. It's supposed to be multi layered. House wiring can have failures too, or more likely old shoddy installs where the circuit grounding is not installed properly.

The difference between your coffee pot or crappy walmart heater is those probably don't expose you directly to mains voltage. If they do someone needs to be sued. They ARE potential fire hazards, but that's just the nature of the function they perform.

Some of these issues are probably not practically dangerous, although there could be some long-term things where the failure could result in some sort of fire. The potential lack of mains isolation is the biggest thing here, and is 100% unacceptable. I think the worst thing about these is they are inconsistent; some of them appear to be put together well and even properly follow electrical safety standards, but others are just shoddily made and potentially dangerous. It's compounded by the fact there's almost no way to tell from the outside, much less any way for someone without experience to know what is good/bad even if they do open up.

I don't think this is a 'well what's the REAL risk' situation. This is a 'how do we find a consistent and safe supplier' situation.

[donluca]

You brush against it the wrong way and get a mains voltage shock (imagine dropping your now hot iron in your lap when this happens...).

Trust me, when you get a shock from mains voltage the last thing you should be afraid of is dropping the hot iron in your lap.
First thing, if you can still operate your arms properly, is detaching yourself from the source of the shock, open your mouth and stick two fingers in it checking if you're suffocating from your own tongue.

Believe it or not, lots of deaths from electric shock are due to the tongue shooting itself into the throat and suffocating you. If you're still conscious when you get shocked, first thing is to check your tongue and if you're unable to do that, maybe because your arms have gone numb, run instantly to someone in your house/near you and hope they realize you're not breathing anymore and get your tongue out of the way.

220V/110V is serious shit, do your homework.

[maxtherabbit]

Retro Gaming: Where some are concerned about 3.3V flash potentially killing our consoles but argue against 115V being dangerous.

Edit: and to be clear. If you want to discuss the safety of a device and if some people are just being overly cautious-that is fine. But to argue that home voltages aren't dangerous is really just stupid.

I'm not willing to go so far as to say mains voltages are "not dangerous." Just that it is not life threatening in the vast, overwhelming majority of situations involving incidental contact.

Getting shocked my mains is not pleasant, and not something I take lightly. "Eating 110vac for breakfast" was obvious hyperbole. Always observe the one hand rule, because as kez pointed out having the current flow from one hand to the other does have a high potential (lol) for fatality.

Back to the topic at hand - op's unit is a pos, in that we agree. But you even conceded that the likelihood of it causing any meaningful harm is miniscule. I simply choose to not pollute my consciousness with precautions against things that would require a Final Destination level of circumstances conspiring to do any meaningful harm. In the same vain, I would never consider switching off my power strips between uses, because a life that requires that level of tedium to sustain is not worth living to me. Sometime I even smoke some cigarettes, they are pretty good.

[leonk]

I ordered this unit from BG a few months back and got the exact same quality of product as OP. In fact it was worst. The stand for the hand unit was in such horrible condition I complained to BG and they sent me a replacement.

I’ve been using only this unit for the past 3 months. I’ve installed countless NESRGB, DCHDMI, N64RGB, did a lot of drag soldering (build my own circuit boards with cyclone 10 FPGAs where I had to solder the 160 or so pins, RAM chips and dozens of SMD components)

For me. The quality of the product is nothing to write home about BUT this little unit really gives you great performance for the $$$

If there’s anything I can fault it for is it’s unable to pump out as much heat as the real Hakko in those rare cases when you need to tack a ground wire to a massive copper ground plain.

Much like Voultar, I’m glad with my purchase but I went in expecting the worst and ended up being overall pleasantly surprised. I did not expect Hakko FX quality for 1/8 the cost.

[xwred5]

I simply choose to not pollute my consciousness with precautions against things that would require a Final Destination level of circumstances conspiring to do any meaningful harm.

You don't have a respect towards the dangers of electronics because you live in a world where safety standards exist, which pretty much all items bought in brick and mortar stores comply to. I am also not going to argue the purpose and importance of safety agencies like UL.

It's reckless and ignorant to continue your quips.

[maxtherabbit]

It's reckless and ignorant to continue your quips.

I ignore traffic laws too

[thebigcheese]

To the point about house wiring, just because there are standards and codes doesn't mean your house is done right. For example, a lot of codes don't apply retroactively, so older buildings might not have the latest and greatest protections. On top of that, when I moved into my condo (which was only 10 years old at the time), we had an inspector look over everything and he still didn't catch two things: the ground wires were a little loose at the panel and the floor outlet in the living room had loose wires to the point where just walking to close to it was enough disturbance to trip the breaker. Took me a while to figure out what was going on there and even an electrician didn't catch that one (though he is the one that found the loose ground wires). The point is that just because there are codes doesn't mean your house is actually safe.

Also, assuming people are going to unplug the iron every time is not even remotely a given. I don't think I've unplugged mine once since I got it. Why would I? Fortunately mine is a Hakko so I don't have to worry about my house exploding or whatever, but the point stands.

Back to the point, can I just say I love the hypocrisy of Voultar hounding on Metal Jesus for leaving up his video review of the zeldaxpro GC Video that was frying GameCubes but defending himself keeping up a video of a potentially dangerous soldering iron recommendation. One might fry your console, the other might kill you. Sigh. So much ego on the internet these days... I'm sure I will get flak for bringing this up, but he already doesn't like me so whatever.

And thanks for correcting me about the AC/DC. I must have been getting something mixed up then. Some of those countries use DC transmission lines, right? Is it just converted to AC at the house then?

[xwred5]

Back to the point, can I just say I love the hypocrisy of Voultar hounding on Metal Jesus for leaving up his video review of the zeldaxpro GC Video that was frying GameCubes but defending himself keeping up a video of a potentially dangerous soldering iron recommendation. One might fry your console, the other might kill you. Sigh. So much ego on the internet these days... I'm sure I will get flak for bringing this up, but he already doesn't like me so whatever.

To be fair, this conversation has only been active for about a week and there is a lot of bullshit in this threat. Right now there are a few random internet randos (myself included) saying it potentially has problems.

And thanks for correcting me about the AC/DC. I must have been getting something mixed up then. Some of those countries use DC transmission lines, right? Is it just converted to AC at the house then?

There has been talk about running DC lines in homes/colleges because of all of the AC-DC conversion we are doing, but there are not established standards and it's a huge effort to retrofit. Also, a lot of people already these nice power plugs with USB plugs right next to the standard power outlets.