Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

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Scarftail
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Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Scarftail »

So I'm pretty much trying to find one CRT that is quality for the majority of retro games out there so that I save space and money. Plenty of PVMs are excellent for 240p/480i and plenty are also great for 480p. However, after a decent while searching, I have yet to find a single one that is good enough for all three. I've seen a number of people say that 480i is distracting on PVMs with 800-1,000 lines due to higher flicker and blank fields, and yet, I haven't found a 480p-capable CRT or PVM that isn't 800+ lines. Does anyone have any input on whether 480i on high-line monitors is actually iffy or not, and/or if any CRTs exist that can do 480p at sub-HD line counts? I'm willing to consider suggested alternatives. Thanks in advance.
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FBX
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by FBX »

I don't think you can find 480P without the monitor also having a higher line count that allows for 720p as well. The PVM-20L5 does 480p, and of course 720p and 1080i. Every model below that is stuck with 480i max.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by maxtherabbit »

the Sony PGM series ONLY syncs to 480p/VESA 640x480

it's rated for 700 horizontal resolution, which would be something like ~525TVL

EDIT: just realised that won't even help you though, since it can't do 480i
Last edited by maxtherabbit on Fri Mar 15, 2019 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Scarftail
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Scarftail »

Thanks for the help. That confirmation let me grasp what my next best option is.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by SNK-NEO-GEO »

I saw a pic at the CRT collective that goes like..600 lines is to soft and 800 lines is to sharp, to my eyes that is a true statement. When it comes to professional monitors it all comes down to availability in your area. The 20L5 seems to be what you are looking for but that monitor is not cheap when it becomes available.. However, if you love 240p content more than anything else then I would not recommend the 20L5 and a pure 15khz would be a better choice, something in the 800 lines.

Availability and price seems to be a yearly escalating issue of RGB monitors - I would not pay what the current market demands for RGB monitors. I would go the Sony consumer CRT (mostly free) way and use Component on all consoles 240p all the way to 1080i. That is a cheap and very efficient solution.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Dochartaigh »

So first things first: you REALLY have to see 480i for yourself on a 800 TVL (or above) CRT to see if it bothers you or not - it's really personal preference and can vary GREATLY from person to person (and I even swear that not all 480i content is equal, and some seems to flicker more than others, even when played on the same set).

If you find that 480i content on a 800+ TVL CRT does bother you (with of course testing it on a lower TVL CRT as well to make sure you're fine with 480i, period), then you might need to use two different CRT's - something like a 20" SD PVM, and a ~20" VGA PC monitor for 480p (larger consumer sets might fit either bill as well). Two 20" monitors would take up a space around 3' wide, which is less wide than a pretty small 43" modern widescreen LCD TV.

If you're fine with 480i on a high TVL set, I would definitely suggest a multiformat pro CRT if you can find, and/or afford one. Common models are the Sony PVM-20L5, Sony BVM-D20/D24/D32, JVC/Ikegami multiformat (various models), etc.

Besides that, nothing like you're looking for exists that I know of, at least available for purchase. The closest one I can think of is the Panasonic DT-M3050W I picked up the other week (30", widescreen, multiformat 240p/480i/480p/720p/1080i, 600 TVL), but you're literally never going to find one of those (I've seen many D32's for sale for example, and never, ever, seen one of these Panasonics).
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by maxtherabbit »

It really is personal. For me, 480i looks like garbage on ANY display, including consumer sets. I've just made peace with 480i being terrible, or laggy with proper deinterlacing
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Hoagtech
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Hoagtech »

If your referring to a P ro V ideo M onitor. There are other brands. I would recommend looking for a Mitsubishi or Sharp. A lot of models support 15 kHz all the way to XGA.

The Sony’s are over priced IMO but any seller who knows his monitors is going to want a lot of cash for any pro monitor that checks those boxes
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Scarftail
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Scarftail »

Dochartaigh wrote:something like a 20" SD PVM, and a ~20" VGA PC monitor for 480p (larger consumer sets might fit either bill as well). Two 20" monitors would take up a space around 3' wide, which is less wide than a pretty small 43" modern widescreen LCD TV.
That's about what I concluded. I was mostly just making sure, but I can manage buying two monitors, especially since it seems for 480p, there are apparently far cheaper alternatives that actually compare to PVMs.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by nmalinoski »

I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Scarftail »

nmalinoski wrote:I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?
Seems out of the question unless I get one asap. I don't strictly want one perfect monitor and was just being theoretical.
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maxtherabbit
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by maxtherabbit »

nmalinoski wrote:I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?
that seems like the closest match to the desires laid out in the OP
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by mikejmoffitt »

SNK-NEO-GEO wrote:I saw a pic at the CRT collective that goes like..600 lines is to soft and 800 lines is to sharp
The CRT Collective has many people who do comparisons based on "experiments" without a very well-established control. Which 600TVL monitor were they looking at? What kind of condition was it in? There are many factors beyond the physical density of the monitor's aperture grille, but it always gets boiled down to "the TVL" like a distorted mantra. What about beam focus? What about abberation in the corners? How about bandwidth on one of the three component channels? And the aged of passive components that affect it?
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Hoagtech
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Hoagtech »

Oh man $3,000 plus freight?

This guy knows his monitor but is asking way too much.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Mitsubishi-XC- ... ctupt=true
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Classicgamer
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Classicgamer »

Depending on your budget and taste, there are various options that will do a nice job on 240p and 480p.

For pro high tvl monitors, the Ikegami HTM20 would be my personal monitor of choice. Sharpness is up there with the Sony BVM 20 - I.e. Too sharp for some tastes but awesome contrast and geometry. For something larger, the NEC XM29 will do 240p and 480p. I'm not a fan but some people like them.

The obvious choice, if the goal is to look good for all vintage games, is a tri-sync arcade monitor. Happ and Betson both sell them new still. I have two. They have a pitch that is comparable to a 480i crt tv or a cga arcade monitor. My 25" has a .8" pitch. My 27" has a .9" pitch. The image looks nice in all 3 modes.

This is my 27" tri-sync in 240p:

Image

Arcade monitors are the only decent option for EGA games (played at native res). You don't see many pro video monitors that can sync to 24khz. Maybe some ancient pc monitors but that's it.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by FinalBaton »

A Tri-sync arcade monitor like the one Classicgamer talks about might be a really good option if you have a smaller budget, honestly.

The NEC XM37+ I had was pretty damn good with all of 240p, 480i and 480p+ to be honest. Great slot shadowmask monitor. You'll probably need some serious cash if you want one though, unless you're lucky and happen to discover one at a broadcast co. or something.
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Scarftail
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Scarftail »

nmalinoski wrote:I know it's not the same thing, but how would a Tri-sync arcade monitor compare here? Those should do all of 240p, 480i, and 480p, yes?
Classicgamer wrote:The obvious choice, if the goal is to look good for all vintage games, is a tri-sync arcade monitor.
FinalBaton wrote:A Tri-sync arcade monitor like the one Classicgamer talks about might be a really good option if you have a smaller budget, honestly.
maxtherabbit wrote:that seems like the closest match to the desires laid out in the OP
I quite appreciate all the willing recommendations. I can consider this resolved. I just need to be able to snatch one relatively soon before it becomes rare.
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Hoagtech
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Hoagtech »

FinalBaton wrote:A Tri-sync arcade monitor like the one Classicgamer talks about might be a really good option if you have a smaller budget, honestly.

The NEC XM37+ I had was pretty damn good with all of 240p, 480i and 480p+ to be honest. Great slot shadowmask monitor. You'll probably need some serious cash if you want one though, unless you're lucky and happen to discover one at a broadcast co. or something.
What do you mean was?

That thing was a masterpiece.

What happened?
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FinalBaton
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by FinalBaton »

Hoagtech wrote:What do you mean was?

That thing was a masterpiece.

What happened?
I had to sell it since I'm moving. There's just no way I was gonna carry this thing around, maybe more than once.

If I had a house and was set on living there all my life I would have absolutely kept it and put it in the basement and used it until it's death. But I live in an appartment and now because of a work opportunity I gotta move to another city, in an appartment again(2nd floor, tiny place). And then I'll still have to move at least 1 more time after that when I get a house, and maybe an additional time in-between then if I move in with a chick or need to switch neighborhood/city.

You get the idea, I had at least 2 moves and maybe more ahead of me, it really made no sense to keep the monitor. Even for the next move this july, I just couldn't get the monitor to the 2nd floor through a cramped staircase. My 25" RGB prosumer Trinitron, on the other hand, will be making the move with me, and will be a piece of cake to transport.

I sold it for pretty decent cash locally (although not as much as the $3K price tag people want online) so I'm not missing it too much. It was great monitor but it was basically an anchor to me, so I had to move on. Getting a good hunk of cash and having a killer 25" set certainly softened the blow :)
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Classicgamer
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Classicgamer »

If I had that issue, I think I'd consider a storage locker these days.

It's one thing to sell stuff you could easily buy again some day but with a CRT monitor you love, there is no guarantee you'll ever find one again.

I sold off all my old Neo Geo AES stuff when I moved to America along with my rgb scart Sony Trinitrons and my Hantarex Polo. Big mistake. I feel sick every time I see what my AES collection would have been worth today if I'd kept it.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by FinalBaton »

I thought about that but I'm looking at at least 5 years of storage, and that's no change (something like $6000)

Not a bad idea honestly, and I get that it's a rare monitor and hard to buy back, but I can legit say I feel good about the decision and that's all that matters
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Classicgamer »

FinalBaton wrote:I thought about that but I'm looking at at least 5 years of storage, and that's no change (something like $6000)

Not a bad idea honestly, and I get that it's a rare monitor and hard to buy back, but I can legit say I feel good about the decision and that's all that matters
$6000 is certainly more than I would have thought. I had assumed that lower cost long term storage was available.

For the $6000 you save, I'm sure you could find another decent CRT when you are ready.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by tacoguy64 »

Can personally recommend the bvm d20f1u, jvc dt17, and nec xm series. All 3 monitors do tri sync very well. The nec is shadow mask vs the sony and jvc aperture grill, but picture quality looks great all around on all 3 monitors. There are a few presentation displays out there from mitsubishi and panasonic that are similar to the nec's so keep your eyes out for those. But they are very hard to find.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by FinalBaton »

Classicgamer wrote:For the $6000 you save, I'm sure you could find another decent CRT when you are ready.
I believe so too. The vast majority of my retro gaming (like, 95% at least, maybe more) is 240p stuff. And for that res, there are tubes I prefer to the NEC. Don't get me wrong the NEC looked pretty damn good. but there are at least 2 - 3 looks for 240p I like more. High-end consumer Trinitron is one. Lower tier PVM Trinitron is another. And slot shadowmask without apparent blanked line(just a consistent mesh appearence) like say the JVC TM-A13SU, is another. So I think I'll actually be happier with one of those pictures over the NEC's, since I game so much at 240p
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by NJRoadfan »

The Toshiba TIMM MM20E45 checks off all the boxes:
-240p/480i/480p. 15-40khz horizontal sync. It'll even do 800x600 @56hz and 1024x768 interlaced.....but
-500 TVL as per Toshiba (.58mm dot pitch 20in tube). Its not going to be high end PVM/BVM Trinitron sharp, but it applies just the right amount of "blur".
-Supports S-Video and composite (although the comb filter is a nasty looking notch filter), along with RF for your RF-only consoles.
-Uses a standard VGA port for the RGB input. Needs TTL sync signals though (use a sync seperater)
-Built-in stereo speakers

Sadly its a rare display. Toshiba was ahead of its time marketing a combination television and computer monitor. It did the TV part well, but was kinda lacking as a monitor (.58mm dot pitch wasn't great for a VGA monitor in 1995). 240p content looks pretty damned good on it though. OTA HDTV using a convertor box with a VGA output really pops too.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Classicgamer »

The issue of a monitor requiring ttl is not solved by a sync separator. You might need a sync separator for sources that sync on composite video but that is nothing to do with ttl.

The issue relates to brightness and voltage. A PC outputs rgb at .7v. Old cga and EGA arcade boards output rgb at 2.5-5v. For some older cga monitors, this means you need a signal boost with pc or home console sources to stop them looking too dull. Or, for monitors designed for consumer rgb, you need to pass rgb from arcade PCBs through a resistor array to prevent excess brightness.

Both my tri-sync arcade monitors have a .75 ohm / 1 kohm switch to allow you to use both.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by NJRoadfan »

Classicgamer wrote:The issue of a monitor requiring ttl is not solved by a sync separator. You might need a sync separator for sources that sync on composite video but that is nothing to do with ttl..
This is what I was referring to. You can't plug composite video into the sync pins of the TIMM and expect it to work. Since the RGB port was designed for computers (VGA specs) in mind, you have to strip sync from composite and convert to 5v TTL level if the console doesn't already output it. As far as video levels are concerned, a properly built supergun would handle the hot video levels from arcade boards.
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by goldendark007 »

NJRoadfan wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:The issue of a monitor requiring ttl is not solved by a sync separator. You might need a sync separator for sources that sync on composite video but that is nothing to do with ttl..
This is what I was referring to. You can't plug composite video into the sync pins of the TIMM and expect it to work. Since the RGB port was designed for computers (VGA specs) in mind, you have to strip sync from composite and convert to 5v TTL level if the console doesn't already output it. As far as video levels are concerned, a properly built supergun would handle the hot video levels from arcade boards.
I have a few RGB consoles running through SCART. All are wired for CSYNC. They run to a switch, then through a SCART to BNC connection to an Extron Matrix Switch. I wanted to run this to a Toshiba TIMM I recently got my hands on. My plan is to make a BNC to HD15 or HD9 cable. Which do I need.. and what modifications do I need to make to the cable to get the proper signal boost? Is this possible.. running RGBs to RGBHV? Thanks!
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Taiyaki »

I've have owned and tried pro monitors and my personal opinion is that anything in those ranges (even the lower tvl ones) are just not optimal for retro gaming. They are much more akin to emulation on an LCD monitor to my eyes (especially the deadly sharp BVM sets). I find that a good all in one crt is essentially a good consumer crt with component outputs (you can go rgb for most systems this way).

There are downsides to this setup as in they usually require more manual work for calibration where as the pro monitors, especially the higher end ones, allow practically all you'd ever need to tweak to be accessed via onboard menus and knobs. However if working on the insides is an option to you, then in my opinion this is the all in one solution that will give you the more natural picture to run anything other than 480p mame/dc/ps2 games, and run them as authentically as possible (and it will probably still look better than you remember it, if you pick a good tv model).

For an good all in one mame solution though, what Classicgamer recommended is probably the best way to go (getting an arcade monitor).
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Re: Is there a good all-in-one PVM?

Post by Steamflogger Boss »

Taiyaki wrote:I've have owned and tried pro monitors and my personal opinion is that anything in those ranges (even the lower tvl ones) are just not optimal for retro gaming. They are much more akin to emulation on an LCD monitor to my eyes (especially the deadly sharp BVM sets). I find that a good all in one crt is essentially a good consumer crt with component outputs (you can go rgb for most systems this way).

There are downsides to this setup as in they usually require more manual work for calibration where as the pro monitors, especially the higher end ones, allow practically all you'd ever need to tweak to be accessed via onboard menus and knobs. However if working on the insides is an option to you, then in my opinion this is the all in one solution that will give you the more natural picture to run anything other than 480p mame/dc/ps2 games, and run them as authentically as possible (and it will probably still look better than you remember it, if you pick a good tv model).

For an good all in one mame solution though, what Classicgamer recommended is probably the best way to go (getting an arcade monitor).
So personal tastes and whatnot but I tend to agree. I almost never use my pvms and just have everything hooked up to a consumer set. The HD trinitrons get a lot of crap but in practice I really like them. Especially for vhs and ld but also for games up to gen 7 in some cases since many of those games are 720p. For older stuff you can just get into the service menu and dick off some processing settings for those inputs. Yes it's not as sharp as my pvms but I've found I don't really want that look for old ass games. I actually want to find a coarser PVM and regret not getting a 2030 when one came up locally with some good vcrs and a rack as well.

In fact I've been wanting to sell a sharper PVM but I don't want to deal with shipping.
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