bobrocks95 wrote:I would guess a rolling scan would have less flickering and brightness loss than 60Hz BFI? Maybe not a big enough improvement on both over existing BFI for manufacturers to put the effort in?
Personally, I have no problem with 60Hz CRT flicker, and 60Hz rolling scan OLEDs is what comes closest to it - not sure I would like 60Hz BFI (never tested). I could see a rolling scan feature being more flexible than BFI, which only works at fixed frame rates and doesn't easily allow for customizable trade-off between brightness and motion clarity (black frame duration can only vary according with the source frame rate - short of complementing it with frame doubling or frame interpolation - while in an ideal rolling scan implementation one would be allowed to fine-tune the number of pixels/lines staying lit per unit of time so as to achieve the preferred brightness/clarity ratio) *. Regarding the effort that implementing the feature would take, I'm not an expert, but Sony and Dell have done it already, so it shouldn't be prohibitive.
* 2019 LG OLEDs supporting BFI at 120Hz could probably allow for selectable black frame cycle for 60Hz content: see here and especially here, very interesting (if true).
Man, I got an OLED a year too early! That 2019 stuff sounds really interesting (indeed if true), but still, I don't think we're quite there yet. Hopefully BFI adjustments keep progressing because it's definitely the most promising way to eventually bring CRT-like motion clarity to consumer flat panels.
I would urge some caution on any upcoming BFI implementation on LG's side. Hard to believe, but on their previous BFI implementation, the BFI frequency was NOT locked to the input refresh rate, but hard set to 60Hz disrespecting any other refresh rate (even 50Hz in PAL countries). F***ING UNBELIEVABLE.
Yeah, personally not too optimistic. It's not like LG are aware of retro gamer's expectations, I imagine VRR proprietary and not working with external sources (who knows about emulators, compatible GPU prolly mandatory) and whatever BFI settings locking the wrong fashion as Fudoh says.
60Hz BFI on my Sony W700B hurts my eyes, the flicker is very obvious. On a consumer CRT 60Hz is fine, but as I recall from the last time I used a typical low-persistence PC CRT, 60Hz also gave me noticeable eye strain, while 75Hz+ was fine.
Were you all saying 60Hz on a PC CRT doesn't bother you?
Our real hope is for OLEDs (ideally true RGB ones unlike LG's WOLED) to become available as PC monitors, which would certainly have more configurable options, and the possibility of custom drivers developed by enthusiasts. Consumer stuff will probably never get things completely right for retro gaming.
That said, in a world where CRTs were absolutely unavailable, even the "dumb" BFI implementation of 2018 LG panels for 60fps games through an OSSC would actually be "good enough" for me. I never noticed any flicker on it, it was just painful to see the brightness loss. It doesn't look bad when you get used to it, but whenever you see what it could be like at original brightness it hurts.
bobrocks95 wrote:Were you all saying 60Hz on a PC CRT doesn't bother you?
Different person, different sensibility, it seems.
It doesn't bother me either on a consumer TV or a PC CRT.
(while the Sony W's strobing kills me, but for me they're different things)
EDIT: which reminds me we're not equal on the matter anyway, the same kind of issue exists with backlight PWM; not everyone is affected by it or not with the same intensity.
We grew up watching 50Hz PAL TVs.. that curse is now a bliss apparently
None of these new technologies is aimed at retrogamers, but that doesn't mean we can't take advantage of it I have no idea if VRR needs to be supported at both ends (in which case, an external box could probably slap whatever protocol/metadata required to make it work with old consoles), but BFI surely doesn't. And for those who care about developer's intention, old SDR games will take less of a hit in peak brightness due to BFI than HDR games featuring specular highlights.
bobrocks95 wrote:Were you all saying 60Hz on a PC CRT doesn't bother you?
Different person, different sensibility, it seems.
It doesn't bother me either on a consumer TV or a PC CRT.
(while the Sony W's strobing kills me, but for me they're different things)
EDIT: which reminds me we're not equal on the matter anyway, the same kind of issue exists with backlight PWM; not everyone is affected by it or not with the same intensity.
Good thing motion resolution isn't a big sticking point for me then. I just want to get rid of the smeary slow transitions my VA LCDs have sometimes...
Maybe a customizable rolling scan would get me a little bit of clarity back without causing visual strain... When it's available in 2030.
bobrocks95 wrote:Were you all saying 60Hz on a PC CRT doesn't bother you?
Different person, different sensibility, it seems.
It doesn't bother me either on a consumer TV or a PC CRT.
(while the Sony W's strobing kills me, but for me they're different things)
EDIT: which reminds me we're not equal on the matter anyway, the same kind of issue exists with backlight PWM; not everyone is affected by it or not with the same intensity.
Good thing motion resolution isn't a big sticking point for me then. I just want to get rid of the smeary slow transitions my VA LCDs have sometimes...
Maybe a customizable rolling scan would get me a little bit of clarity back without causing visual strain... When it's available in 2030.
it's interesting how different people value completely different things in displays, motion clarity is my top priority
I have no idea if VRR needs to be supported at both ends (in which case, an external box could probably slap whatever protocol/metadata required to make it work with old consoles), but BFI surely doesn't. And for those who care about developer's intention, old SDR games will take less of a hit in peak brightness due to BFI than HDR games featuring specular highlights.
