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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:26 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
Here is a little example of why I sold my XM29:

Image

Poor Mr Kang looks like he has a melanoma on his face instead of a cheek bone. He has visible spaces seperating his nose from his face and he has a staircase on his shoulder. Effects that absolutely should be there, like the light reflecting off his cheek, are just lost.

On an arcade monitor, his shoulder looks like a shoulder and his face looks like a face.

Image

IMO, that is what the developers intended. They certainly wouldn't have put a black square on his face intentionally like the XM29 image.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:45 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 611
Good pictures. The picture on the XM29 looks like it has a nice shader applied on an emulator on an lcd to me. It looks appealing nevertheless, but it doesn't look like an organic crt picture to me.

I think your explanation is spot on, for movies, television broadcasting etc they needed fine pitch monitors that would provide accurate representations of what they were working on, but video games on the opposite often times took into account the low res displays and tv's on the market to make graphics that would look enhanced on them (dithering is too obvious an example, but any picture is generally improved when running on a consumer grade tv or arcade crt, even the MK3 picture above).


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:59 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
The reason I like and keep my Ikegami TM20-90rh is the incredible contrast you get on those ultra high-end monitors. I don't care much for the jaggies and large black gaps between lines but.... if you could get that amazing contrast on a good size arcade monitor... it would be my perfect vintage gaming display.

Contrast has always been the main thing that separates the best from the average displays.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 12:50 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
That excessively jagged pixelated image on HD displays is not extra "clarity". It isn't displaying flaws that were just hidden on a crt. Those jaggies are a scaling artifact as a result of the poor upscalers used by 99% of flat panel displays to make the low res image fit their fixed pixel grid.

The effect is comparable to when you take a low res thumbnail image and stretch it to fill your monitor. The larger it gets, the more pixelated and jagged it looks. Clarity is reduced, not improved. Clarity is improved when you use an image resolution that matches the display.

The effect on high end ultra-fine-pitch CRTs is a different but related problem. It's like the analog equivalent of a scaling artifact. The pitch on a CRT is the equivalent of it's horizontal resolution. When you take low res graphics that are designed with 320 or 640 horizontal pixels and display them on a fine pitch screen you get jagged edges that should not be there.

Round objects are meant to be round. If they look like a staircase, then it is not displayed correctly. It certainly isn't an abundance of clarity. It's a pitch that is mismatched with the image.


I'm gonna keep it real with you chief, I actually don't care what the developers intended with respect to the video.

From my perspective, the purest reality of what the console is rendering is a 320(or 256)x240 pixel grid. Making a smooth circle out of 76,800 squares really isn't a thing. Taking a low-res thumbnail on a PC and expanding it is not reducing the clarity - it's simply taking the exact amount of clarity that was present all along and subjecting it to additional scrutiny by looking at it more closely.

Once again, I'm not saying my perspective is right and yours is wrong, and I would appreciate it if you'd stop saying I "don't understand." I do understand, I just see the issue in a fundamentally different way. The console is rendering 320x240 dots, and I want to see each one.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:43 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 611
maxtherabbit wrote:
I'm gonna keep it real with you chief, I actually don't care what the developers intended with respect to the video.

From my perspective, the purest reality of what the console is rendering is a 320(or 256)x240 pixel grid. Making a smooth circle out of 76,800 squares really isn't a thing. Taking a low-res thumbnail on a PC and expanding it is not reducing the clarity - it's simply taking the exact amount of clarity that was present all along and subjecting it to additional scrutiny by looking at it more closely.

Once again, I'm not saying my perspective is right and yours is wrong, and I would appreciate it if you'd stop saying I "don't understand." I do understand, I just see the issue in a fundamentally different way. The console is rendering 320x240 dots, and I want to see each one.


I don't think he was necessarily referring to you. You made your preferences clear and I think they are very understandable, especially reading your personal experiences with crt's. Different people have had different experiences with crt's and analog technologies in general, and this in turn probably contributes to defining one's preferences. However he has a point in what he explained, it's just a technicality of why low res does not normally look "clearer" on high definition displays, but it doesn't mean some might not prefer it that way anyway. In the end it's all very subjective, beauty truly is in the eye of the beholder in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 5:51 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
That excessively jagged pixelated image on HD displays is not extra "clarity". It isn't displaying flaws that were just hidden on a crt. Those jaggies are a scaling artifact as a result of the poor upscalers used by 99% of flat panel displays to make the low res image fit their fixed pixel grid.

The effect is comparable to when you take a low res thumbnail image and stretch it to fill your monitor. The larger it gets, the more pixelated and jagged it looks. Clarity is reduced, not improved. Clarity is improved when you use an image resolution that matches the display.

The effect on high end ultra-fine-pitch CRTs is a different but related problem. It's like the analog equivalent of a scaling artifact. The pitch on a CRT is the equivalent of it's horizontal resolution. When you take low res graphics that are designed with 320 or 640 horizontal pixels and display them on a fine pitch screen you get jagged edges that should not be there.

Round objects are meant to be round. If they look like a staircase, then it is not displayed correctly. It certainly isn't an abundance of clarity. It's a pitch that is mismatched with the image.


I'm gonna keep it real with you chief, I actually don't care what the developers intended with respect to the video.

From my perspective, the purest reality of what the console is rendering is a 320(or 256)x240 pixel grid. Making a smooth circle out of 76,800 squares really isn't a thing. Taking a low-res thumbnail on a PC and expanding it is not reducing the clarity - it's simply taking the exact amount of clarity that was present all along and subjecting it to additional scrutiny by looking at it more closely.

Once again, I'm not saying my perspective is right and yours is wrong, and I would appreciate it if you'd stop saying I "don't understand." I do understand, I just see the issue in a fundamentally different way. The console is rendering 320x240 dots, and I want to see each one.


If you find it offensive when someone says "people don't understand", maybe you should stop saying that they are delusional for not sharing your preferences. That sort of thing invites people to explain why you are wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 7:35 pm 


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Whenever I play games I always envision in my head what the developers intent was. It was of upmost importance. Deviating from that is not the "intended" way to play.

For MK3 that means I just won't play it on any other monitor than a Hantarex Polo/Wells Gardener. It is simply impossible to play as all my combos drop and my neutral and zoning game goes out of whack.

Same thing with Super Metroid. Samus morphball is supposed to be a ball duh not a oval. 8:7 aspect ratio is the intended format.

The sky in super mario bros is supposed to be purple too not blue. Shigeru Miyamoto states that in a post it is purple to mimic nature so it must be correct. He is the be all end all authority on it. I see purple skies all the time in real life. All those people playing Super Mario Bros VS weren't playing mario bros at all. The sky was blue.

Not catering to these intentions you might as well not be playing the real thing. You are just playing a imitation.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 8:05 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:

If you find it offensive when someone says "people don't understand", maybe you should stop saying that they are delusional for not sharing your preferences. That sort of thing invites people to explain why you are wrong.

Fair enough. I never meant to accuse people with your viewpoint of being delusional, though I do see how it could be taken that way.

My whole argument all along has simply been that the apparent change of prevailing opinion is partially due to economic factors, and not simply everyone having a change of heart.

Cost affects decision making more than most people are willing to admit, thus the comment about delusion. I can't accept the correlation between pro monitor pricing and internet opinions as simple coincidence.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 10:30 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 611
maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Cost affects decision making more than most people are willing to admit, thus the comment about delusion. I can't accept the correlation between pro monitor pricing and internet opinions as simple coincidence.

Problem with that is that pvm/bvm have been expensive for years and it didn't stop people from almost unanimously loving them some 5 years or so ago. Sure the highest end models have gone up a lot, but so have the "favorite" consumer models (such as the Sony FV300/310 in the US among others).

What happened is that there were multiple very visible online articles that were written in 2014 and they would come up on top when people searched for "best crt's for gaming". These articles raved about the BVM's and in general any PVM's. After these articles launched the prices of BVM's went up very quickly (even 5 years ago they were already selling for 300~600 usd depending on condition). These articles is how many got the impression that those were the best crt's for video games. Back then it was also very common to see people linking to such articles when trying to prove their point. Subsequently it colored a lot of people's ideas of crt's for several years. Over time though people have gradually developed their own opinions, and this is where the split begins. Also if it were purely for monetary reasons these consumer crt owners wouldn't still be spending hundreds and hundreds on rgb cables, switchers and other accessories, and in general, most people, at least in forums like here, have also at some point tried pro monitors as they have documented their experiences, so they have a point of comparison.

Even a simple search for pro crt vs consumer leads to some pretty interesting reads such as here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... sumer_crt/

What's interesting is how people now understand the opinion of preferring crt's to look the way we remember it, or the way developpers intended etc, even to find it "superior". 5 years ago if you said you thought consumer crt's or arcade monitors were superior to pro monitors, aside from some people here most people would be scratching their heads because opinions were so colored by the pro monitor fad which was at its peak.

Now people understand that there is no "best" crt for gaming. Even among gamers who favor consumer crt's there are splits. Some prefer shadow masks, some prefer aperture grilles, some prefer flat, some like curved, some like inbetween. Then there's also the famous Sony FV310 consumer tube which has a unique high voltage regulator making it a somewhat middle ground between consumer crt's and pvm's, some like that, lots of different preferences.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:09 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
It is impossible to say something is "best" without considering the purpose. One car could be best for racing while another is far better for bringing your shopping home from Trader Joe's.

Displays are no different. For me, if I am playing Daytona and Star Wars trilogy, or any shooting game, having a nice large display like the 29" Mak adds a lot to the experience. Being able to play every game at native res is also reason enough to choose one over any 15khz only monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:12 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
ChuChu Flamingo wrote:
Whenever I play games I always envision in my head what the developers intent was. It was of upmost importance. Deviating from that is not the "intended" way to play.

For MK3 that means I just won't play it on any other monitor than a Hantarex Polo/Wells Gardener. It is simply impossible to play as all my combos drop and my neutral and zoning game goes out of whack.

Same thing with Super Metroid. Samus morphball is supposed to be a ball duh not a oval. 8:7 aspect ratio is the intended format.

The sky in super mario bros is supposed to be purple too not blue. Shigeru Miyamoto states that in a post it is purple to mimic nature so it must be correct. He is the be all end all authority on it. I see purple skies all the time in real life. All those people playing Super Mario Bros VS weren't playing mario bros at all. The sky was blue.

Not catering to these intentions you might as well not be playing the real thing. You are just playing a imitation.


The Hantarex Polo (the European model) is my favorite cga arcade monitor. I use to love those things when I lived in Europe. They were very high quality with awesome contrast. If I still lived over there, I would definitely track one down as well as a Hantarex cube.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 11:58 pm 


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Posts: 780
Location: Italy
Classicgamer wrote:
Here is a little example of why I sold my XM29:
Poor Mr Kang looks like he has a melanoma on his face instead of a cheek bone. He has visible spaces seperating his nose from his face and he has a staircase on his shoulder. Effects that absolutely should be there, like the light reflecting off his cheek, are just lost.


Try standing a bit farther from the screen - the gaps in between the lines will get much less prominent but you will still be able to enjoy the added sharpness (well, I do). This, along with the much less visible phosphors dots or stripes, while still retaining an analog look, is the added value of pro monitors, and not scanlines per se (which at a certain point - like on 1000 TVL monitors or 240p@120hz on high-res PC CRTs - kind of get in the way to me as well).

As for the light on the character's face and upper body on the arcade monitor - it probably shouldn't be there? There seems to be a hint of oversaturation to me (see the slight lack of detail on the arm).

(Ofc this is not to say that the XM29 is better than the arcade monitor)


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:50 am 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
Xer Xian wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
Here is a little example of why I sold my XM29:
Poor Mr Kang looks like he has a melanoma on his face instead of a cheek bone. He has visible spaces seperating his nose from his face and he has a staircase on his shoulder. Effects that absolutely should be there, like the light reflecting off his cheek, are just lost.


Try standing a bit farther from the screen - the gaps in between the lines will get much less prominent but you will still be able to enjoy the added sharpness (well, I do). This, along with the much less visible phosphors dots or stripes, while still retaining an analog look, is the added value of pro monitors, and not scanlines per se (which at a certain point - like on 1000 TVL monitors or 240p@120hz on high-res PC CRTs - kind of get in the way to me as well).

As for the light on the character's face and upper body on the arcade monitor - it probably shouldn't be there? There seems to be a hint of oversaturation to me (see the slight lack of detail on the arm).

(Ofc this is not to say that the XM29 is better than the arcade monitor)


The arcade monitor looks exactly as it is meant to. The light reflection on his face is absolutely meant to be there. And....again.... jaggies are not extra detail.

You can't judge a monitor's colors based on a pic. You're judging the colors on my phone camera and your screen. In person, the image on the arcade monitors and my Ikegami are far more vibrant and accurate than my XM29 ever was.

On the XM29, the image never looked nice to me at any distance. And, if you can't stand at correct distances for arcade games then that is a problem. Unlike the Sony BVM 20 and the Ikegami TM20-90rh, the XM29 is not a high end broadcast monitor. It does not have great contrast or good geometry. It just has a pitch that is too fine for 240p games. It's equivalent to a CRT pc monitor. That is what it was designed for - a conference screen for PowerPoint presentations.

The XM29 is ok for 480p content but so are a lot of monitors.

If I thought the XM29 was anywhere near as good as some claim, I would have kept it. It was just another disappointment though.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:48 am 


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Classicgamer wrote:
And....again.... jaggies are not extra detail.

Who ever said that? They won't bring extra detail, but are part of the package that delivers that extra sharpness which some might prefer over the more cohesive but blurred out look of low-pitch CRTs. Personal tastes. And with due respect, who gives a crap about what developers intended? Most developers assumed that their games would be played through RF or composite (proof: dithering effects), but sure as hell I'm not going back to that :)


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 1:04 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 189
Location: germany
The XM29 is all but no fine pitch or pc crt monitor. everything above 800x600 is awful on this monitor. It does only shine in 240p and 480p.
I also do not think the developers intended that much when developing anything on their 14/15" CRTs. Capcom Toaplan Konami for example had Sharp X68000 for development back then.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 2:55 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 611
Xer Xian wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
And....again.... jaggies are not extra detail.

Who ever said that? They won't bring extra detail, but are part of the package that delivers that extra sharpness which some might prefer over the more cohesive but blurred out look of low-pitch CRTs. Personal tastes. And with due respect, who gives a crap about what developers intended? Most developers assumed that their games would be played through RF or composite (proof: dithering effects), but sure as hell I'm not going back to that :)

I believe you still get dithering effects generally looking alright through S-video. Yes maybe it does mean developers of those earlier 90's systems expected one to use up till Composite or S-video, and this is also why S-video is sometimes preferred for those systems (it is an outstanding analogue video connection). Still I think using RGB on a consumer tv should theoretically add just a tinge of sharpness (more than that if using a pro monitor) and provides some color improvements (assuming it works properly and not dulling the image like I've seen some consumer tv's do) but will still retain all the characteristics of consumer tv's including the visible mask, blooming and so forth.

This is a pretty great comparison of BVM > PVM > Consumer, and pretty much illustrates why I prefer consumer so much. To me those extra lines actually get in the way of providing a pleasant organic picture. By the time you reach the BVM grade from normal distance you no longer see the lines at all. If it weren't for the oustanding contrast you could fool people that they are using an lcd with a scanline shader/filter.


Here's also the original picture is larger size:
https://i.imgtc.com/8QUbav4.jpg

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 3:56 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
Interesting pics.

I remember when I used a Sony Trinitron tv with RGB scart in the early 90's, there was definately a large difference in sharpness and color separation over svideo and composite on the same tv.

RGB looks sharp and clear on most CRTs unless they are old or damaged. It's a pure signal fed directly to the guns with no processing. Unlike with NTSC or Pal color systems, there is less opportunity for the image to get spoiled or improved by the tv. It becomes a matter of preference for the different styles of tube / mask. The best tv I ever saw for 240p gaming was my friends Sharp with RGB scart.

There is no blur introduced as a result of a corse pitch with 240p games. 600tvl is more than enough to display every bit of info in a 320 x 240 image. A blurry softer image occurs with things like poor scaling, shaders, low quality cables or poor crt maintenance and excess brightness.

You can get a super fine pitch by using a PC crt monitor and display 240p at 120hz. The pitch is as fine or finer than the most expensive broadcast monitors but the image looks like sh*t without shaders.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:23 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
I know it's hard to tell much from pics but these go some way to showing why I love my Ikegami TM20-90rh. It's a true high end monitor:

Image

Contrast makes more of a difference to image quality than any other factor. It's true for all display types but it applies even more to old analog CRTs. It's what separates $15,000 monitors from what you get at Walmart.

Image

You can turn the brightness way up on these before the image starts to blur which matters for Mame. The key difference when I use real PCBs vs mame is that arcade boards are noticeably brighter. I like to adjust the brightness and contrast until Ryu's pants are white, like on the arcade and not mame beige.

Older games with more basic graphics never seem to look right on them though:

Image

There is a noticeable difference between CPS1 and CPS2 on pro monitors:

Image

Final Fight, SF2, Double Dragon, most Taito games etc all look better on the arcade monitor. It's games like Killer instinct gain something from the high contrast pro display:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 4:36 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 611
I didn't know there was a brightness difference between original boards and Mame. I did notice however that many guides recommend lowering the gamma to 0.7 on Groovy and I found the picture to be way too dark, had to immediately restore it to 1. I haven't had to touch the brightness knob other than for a few games that have odd brightness levels such as Konami's Vendetta and Data East's Cliffhanger Edward Randy.

Not a huge fan of that Ikegami's look but I believe you on the brightness. Scanlines look too thick for my tastes. I much prefer your arcade monitor. Now that looks glorious to me. I see what you mean about the comparison with CPS1 to CPS2, it's true that Marvel VS Capcom looks much better there than Street Fighter II and Final Fight which is kind of weird considering same resolution and fairly similar hardware.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 5:52 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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Location: Woodinville, WA
For a long time, my small town didn’t have a Toys R Us, so it was a treat to visit the one at the larger mall a few towns over.

In the SNES era, Toys R Us had a SNES kiosk and I vividly remember the visuals of it. The screen was flat, crystal clear and scanlines were present. Every time I visited, I made a point to check it out and I was always envious. It looked otherworldly good to me. At the time I was still using RF.

I’ve since found photos of the kiosks online but I haven’t found details of the monitor or what video signal was used. I would guess RGB, but I could be mistaken. It was so much better than what I could reproduce until much later.

Even back then, there was a wide disparity of video quality in use, and Nintendo spared no expense in showcasing their games in the best possible light. Arguing Nintendo really wanted you to use RF is silly - they would have shown RF off if they thought that would move the most units.

All of this leads me to agree with maxtherabbit’s sentiment. Money is a key driver in forcing peoples’ taste. You will find lots of people who argue that a RetroPie is superior to real systems. Notably, most people who still operate real systems also have a RetroPie. There is room for both, and if you can afford both, you have more options.

Similarly, with displays, I would venture to say that most people who have a PVM or BVM also have a consumer CRT, an upscaler and even an LCD. Arguing superiority is somewhat silly - why not all of the above? The answer invariable comes down to money and then space (which is also directly related to money).

To be clear, there is something pure about optimizing for biggest bang for the buck, just like optimizing for the absolute best experience by sparing no expense. No one would argue the RetroPie or the GBS isn’t a great value. Similarly, no one can really argue that more choice isn’t “better.” It would seem this debate really comes down to a muddied attempt to reconcile these two extremes.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:11 pm 



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strygo wrote:
For a long time, my small town didn’t have a Toys R Us, so it was a treat to visit the one at the larger mall a few towns over.

In the SNES era, Toys R Us had a SNES kiosk and I vividly remember the visuals of it. The screen was flat, crystal clear and scanlines were present. Every time I visited, I made a point to check it out and I was always envious. It looked otherworldly good to me. At the time I was still using RF.

I’ve since found photos of the kiosks online but I haven’t found details of the monitor or what video signal was used. I would guess RGB, but I could be mistaken. It was so much better than what I could reproduce until much later.

Even back then, there was a wide disparity of video quality in use, and Nintendo spared no expense in showcasing their games in the best possible light. Arguing Nintendo really wanted you to use RF is silly - they would have shown RF off if they thought that would move the most units.

I don't know what monitor or tv that was, but this was probably a setup either by Nintendo of America employees or Toys R us themselves, and not representative of what the game developers from Nintendo of Japan were thinking about.

I really doubt they were developed with RF in mind. RF was an outdated format by the early 90's already, so in most likelihood it was for Composite and S-video they were testing with. In fact Nintendo did release official S-video cables for almost all their systems from the SNES onwards (at least in Japan), indicating they had those in mind as optimal video connections. RGB was accessible on the SNES and did even receive an official cable in Japan but they never followed up on that as none of the later systems had RGB. Not even the Gamecube and Wii (although I hear the Pal systems had RGB, or at least some did). Is it worth updating to RGB by modding our consoles anyway? Yes I think most people would agree it's worth doing even if only to have as an option, but it's impossible to say RGB was the intended picture when it wasn't even available on the majority of the consoles.

strygo wrote:
All of this leads me to agree with maxtherabbit’s sentiment. Money is a key driver in forcing peoples’ taste. You will find lots of people who argue that a RetroPie is superior to real systems. Notably, most people who still operate real systems also have a RetroPie. There is room for both, and if you can afford both, you have more options.

Similarly, with displays, I would venture to say that most people who have a PVM or BVM also have a consumer CRT, an upscaler and even an LCD. Arguing superiority is somewhat silly - why not all of the above? The answer invariable comes down to money and then space (which is also directly related to money).

To be clear, there is something pure about optimizing for biggest bang for the buck, just like optimizing for the absolute best experience by sparing no expense. No one would argue the RetroPie or the GBS isn’t a great value. Similarly, no one can really argue that more choice isn’t “better.” It would seem this debate really comes down to a muddied attempt to reconcile these two extremes.

I completely agree with the second and third paragraphs, and it's because PVM/BVM owners also have consumer tubes that the divide started in my opinion. Once you see both you are able to decide which you prefer.

However I disagree on the financial part. Of course some people might be getting whatever they can get their hands on, but most people on dedicated message boards like here spend a fortune on acquiring original hardware and games, as well as modding all their consoles for rgb, buying high end cabling, getting high end switch boxes, adapters and so forth. In fact just assuming they buy the consumer tube for 50~100 usd for one in good shape, they'll likely still spend over 500~700 usd for all the equipment assuming they have about 8 consoles (that's not counting the modding). If they have more then they need a second switch box and more cables, since most people buy superg's switch and high end cables it could easily reach the 1000+ usd. People with that kind of disposable income and that level of dedication to getting the best picture they can are not going to cheapen out on the tv itself, and yet you have a very strong split between those who favor pro and those who favor consumer grade tv's.

The biggest difference is in how the image looks. There is a distinctive difference between pro and consumer models, and then even within those two categories there are also many variations (such as PVM vs BVM, and shadow mask consumer vs aperture grille consumer etc). I think it's a great idea to try and see all the different options so that people can find what works best for them.

To me no amount of money could make my bvm/pvm's look more pleasant to my eyes. You can't just downgrade the picture quality to say composite as it only makes things worse. The lack of blooming, visible mask and the thick scanlines are there to stay.

There are even some people who prefer composite if you can imagine that. I know some people who despite having all the RGB gear prefer to stick to composite connections for everything. You can also see it on emulation message boards as they have been improving the color bleeding aspects of composite for composite shaders. If that's what they like who's to say they are wrong? In my opinion it's a lack of respect to assume they prefer what they prefer because they aren't financially able to go for better.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 9:00 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
A lot of us here own both pro monitors, consumer tv's and / or arcade monitors so I also think the financial point is BS.

I could definately see people on a very tight budget using a consumer TV but I doubt most people would use their poverty as a basis for monitor preference. For one thing, you have to have seen both to be able to compare. Most people would only ever see a pro monitor if they bought one.

I could see people who invested more than they should on a pro monitor using that as a basis for an opinion. Nobody likes to hear their baby is ugly.

I believe that the primary driver to own a CRT for Mame in 2019 is for authenticity. People who were disappointed by how mame looked on their LCD and want it to look more like the arcade they remember.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 11:12 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
Posts: 337
Location: Woodinville, WA
My position is: more choices is better than fewer choices. I have noticed that people who own a PVM tend to also have a consumer CRT, and often also have an LCD and scaler. I don't think this an accident, but recognition that there are specific situations and circumstances why you would prefer one over the other. You're better off with more options and not fewer. I'm immediately skeptical of anyone who claims that there is no room for PVMs or derides them for their characteristics. There are lots of folks in this camp. I'm similarly skeptical of someone who owns PVMs and says there is no room for consumer sets. FWIW, I don't know of many people in this camp. So there is clearly an asymmetry. I attribute it to financial constraints. If you have alternate explanations for the asymmetry, I'd love to hear them.

To illustrate my point further, take the arcade experience. What's the "purist" way to experience UMK3? We don't actually have to guess: an original cabinet with original hardware. The entire experience, including the artwork, control layout, and A/V setup were decided by the creators. Does that mean you shouldn't enjoy the experience on a Supergun? No. If you had both the cabinet and a Supergun, there are reasons why you might play one over the other. But you'd objectively be better off having both.

Another interesting example is Daytona USA. The arcade game, including the entire setup, is a thing of beauty. If you enjoy that game and had the space and money, you'd be hard pressed not to want to own the multiplayer arcade cabinet. But the HD remaster on PS3/X360 is nice too. You're objectively better off having both and enjoying the positive characteristics of each.

As an aside, after doing some more research, the SNES kiosk in question apparently uses a Zenith RGB monitor along with Nintendo's official JP21 cable. Screenshot below:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 3:17 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 611
Classicgamer wrote:
A lot of us here own both pro monitors, consumer tv's and / or arcade monitors so I also think the financial point is BS.

I could definately see people on a very tight budget using a consumer TV but I doubt most people would use their poverty as a basis for monitor preference. For one thing, you have to have seen both to be able to compare. Most people would only ever see a pro monitor if they bought one.

I could see people who invested more than they should on a pro monitor using that as a basis for an opinion. Nobody likes to hear their baby is ugly.

Yes, anyone who can afford to explore RGB options is extremely unlikely to cheapen out on the tv itself, it's an absurd theory in my opinion. Even people who choose other video options are also not necessarily doing it because they're poor, that's just some snobby elitist point of view. Makes them seem insecure with their choices if they need to look down on people who prefer what they consider to be "lesser" crt's.

Classicgamer wrote:
I believe that the primary driver to own a CRT for Mame in 2019 is for authenticity. People who were disappointed by how mame looked on their LCD and want it to look more like the arcade they remember.

Exactly, and not just for Mame. I think for all consoles people are sort of seeking authenticity. In the case of arcades it might depend on their region, for consoles might depend what tv's they used to play on most. This can also explain why among consumer crt fans shadow masks are seeing a resurgence, a lot of people played on those and so it feels more true to what they remember.

strygo wrote:
My position is: more choices is better than fewer choices. I have noticed that people who own a PVM tend to also have a consumer CRT, and often also have an LCD and scaler. I don't think this an accident, but recognition that there are specific situations and circumstances why you would prefer one over the other. You're better off with more options and not fewer. I'm immediately skeptical of anyone who claims that there is no room for PVMs or derides them for their characteristics. There are lots of folks in this camp. I'm similarly skeptical of someone who owns PVMs and says there is no room for consumer sets. FWIW, I don't know of many people in this camp. So there is clearly an asymmetry. I attribute it to financial constraints. If you have alternate explanations for the asymmetry, I'd love to hear them.

I don't think anyone here is saying the contrary. All crt's have their roles, and all sorts of people have their preferences.

If you want to see what is generally said a simple search like this can be quite enlightening:
https://bit.ly/2TJwIcQ

If you're used to seeing people favor pro monitors you might be in for a surprise. It's much closer to a 50/50 split in my experience.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 11, 2019 9:08 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
Yup, I own a lot of crt monitors and Tv's and I love all of them for different reasons. Sometimes I feel like enjoying technical excellence and other times I want to enjoy games on the biggest screen possible or see games as I remember them.

Everyone who cares about this stuff should invest in a few spares and at least two monitors for regular use (one horizontal and one vertical). But nobody should stock-pile monitors they don't like. Set them free and let someone else enjoy them.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 3:56 am 


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Joined: 21 Oct 2013
Posts: 688
My 2931 in my blast city is on it's last legs, the screen is vibrating and after a recap it's not any better. I can't find a replacement 2931 anywhere so regretablly considering this CRT from Weiya. What's the shipping on this from HAPP?


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 12:05 pm 


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Joined: 28 Feb 2015
Posts: 603
Location: Rome
Before giving up, try replacing the drivers, they are small, simple through hole ICs which are still available new in the market.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:06 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
Pasky wrote:
My 2931 in my blast city is on it's last legs, the screen is vibrating and after a recap it's not any better. I can't find a replacement 2931 anywhere so regretablly considering this CRT from Weiya. What's the shipping on this from HAPP?


It kinda depends where you live with it being a freight item. For me, it was around $80 to New York.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:10 am 


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Joined: 21 Oct 2013
Posts: 688
donluca wrote:
Before giving up, try replacing the drivers, they are small, simple through hole ICs which are still available new in the market.


Yea I haven't given up, the tube is good but the chassis is fucked, I could definitely try that.

Classicgamer wrote:
Pasky wrote:
My 2931 in my blast city is on it's last legs, the screen is vibrating and after a recap it's not any better. I can't find a replacement 2931 anywhere so regretablly considering this CRT from Weiya. What's the shipping on this from HAPP?


It kinda depends where you live with it being a freight item. For me, it was around $80 to New York.


Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 14, 2019 2:46 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 565
If the tube is good then maybe you could try one of the universal arcade chassis off eBay.

For me though, this sort of thing is reason enough to buy new so I get a good 10 years+ without hassle. One of my K7000's is still sitting in the corner of my garage for "project items". I thought I'd fix it 5 years ago but it's still on my "to do" list. I don't like working on CRTs...

Plus, it makes me feel better to have a new and bright tube and a spare chassis on the shelf in case I ever need it. I am hoping that I have enough to last until the day when someone invents a new TV tech that can switch res like a CRT.


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