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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Tue Mar 05, 2019 8:09 pm 



Joined: 27 Sep 2018
Posts: 111
The Happ 49-2715-00, aka Makvision M3129DS-LG 27/29" Tri-Mode, is actually a Wei-Ya M3129DS-72 monitor with the Wei-Ya C3912DB chassis (aka Rodotron 666) and LG A68QGX793X602(M) (re-branded Samsung) CRT with 500 TVL:

http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=26&pid=626
https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Rodotron_666
https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/CRT_designation_systems

These Wei-Ya tri-sync arcade monitors are plug-n-play with anything that puts out 0.7 Vpp RGB with clean sync on a DE15 connector, e.g. VGA, and comes with a TTL signal converter for JAMMA arcade boards. If you need YPbPr component, there's always the Startech CPNT2VGAA Component to VGA Video Converter.

There's even a drop-in tube upgrade in the form of Toshiba's flat 27" consumer TVs. This CRT is identical to the CRT in the Nanao MS-29xx arcade monitors series that the Arcade Otaku guys rave about.

Classicgamer wrote:
Prices have sky-rocketed on eBay for larger CRTs because too many people seem to be under the impression that they are hard to find. I seen people pay over $2000 for 20 year-old XM29's..

More specifically, it's anything multi-sync supporting 31khz+ 480p+ that's going sky-high. We're talking like a 5x+ price premium in many cases between otherwise-identical 15khz vs multi-sync 31khz models. For PC monitors it's even worse as desirable models like the FW900 now go prices in excess of their original MSRPs.

I get the appeal of those, I really do, but for 480p and up you're arguably better off getting a new 2018+ LG OLED for it's superior picture quality, larger size, and good enough latency. Probably cheaper at this point too.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:47 am 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1054
Quick update: I asked Weiya directly for a quote for shipping to the US, and they just referred me to Suzo Happ and Betson, so it looks like those are the only two distributors they're using in the US.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:29 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 470
energizerfellow‌ wrote:
The Happ 49-2715-00, aka Makvision M3129DS-LG 27/29" Tri-Mode, is actually a Wei-Ya M3129DS-72 monitor with the Wei-Ya C3912DB chassis (aka Rodotron 666) and LG A68QGX793X602(M) (re-branded Samsung) CRT with 500 TVL:

http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=26&pid=626
https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/Rodotron_666
https://wiki.arcadeotaku.com/w/CRT_designation_systems

These Wei-Ya tri-sync arcade monitors are plug-n-play with anything that puts out 0.7 Vpp RGB with clean sync on a DE15 connector, e.g. VGA, and comes with a TTL signal converter for JAMMA arcade boards. If you need YPbPr component, there's always the Startech CPNT2VGAA Component to VGA Video Converter.

There's even a drop-in tube upgrade in the form of Toshiba's flat 27" consumer TVs. This CRT is identical to the CRT in the Nanao MS-29xx arcade monitors series that the Arcade Otaku guys rave about.

Classicgamer wrote:
Prices have sky-rocketed on eBay for larger CRTs because too many people seem to be under the impression that they are hard to find. I seen people pay over $2000 for 20 year-old XM29's..

More specifically, it's anything multi-sync supporting 31khz+ 480p+ that's going sky-high. We're talking like a 5x+ price premium in many cases between otherwise-identical 15khz vs multi-sync 31khz models. For PC monitors it's even worse as desirable models like the FW900 now go prices in excess of their original MSRPs.

I get the appeal of those, I really do, but for 480p and up you're arguably better off getting a new 2018+ LG OLED for it's superior picture quality, larger size, and good enough latency. Probably cheaper at this point too.


The Makvision I have has a Toshiba tube and the adapter it comes with does no signal conversion. It's a simple plug adapter as PCBs don't output on db15 plugs. The monitor can handle 2.5v - 5v rgb sources without any adapters. It has a switch, as I said. I use mine with PCBs by wiring a Jamma harness to a db15 breakout board.

A lot of arcade monitors look similar or even identicle to other brands in pics but the reality is sometimes different. I thought I was buying a larger version of my Billabs tri-sync when I bought the Mak but it turned out to be a completely different monitor. The Billabs has an LG tube and twice as many rgb ports...

For gaming, you are almost always better off with a CRT, even for 480p sources. Games look and play best in their native resolution. A modern 1080p or 4K panel has to upscale a 480p source to 1080p or 4K and most will do a terrible job. You can invest in a quality upscaler to make it look better but they are all a compromise over using a lag free CRT in native res.

I use my PS3 with my Sony PS3 monitor for 720p and 1080p games but for 480p games like Capcom vs SNK 2, I hook my PS3 up to my crt arcade monitor.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:01 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
Posts: 470
Taiyaki wrote:
The XM29 is really hard to find, but in general large consumer crt's are so easy to find on craigslist, even now. I think most owners can't get rid of them in fact. In my area you can always find an abundance of 32 inch tv's (and even still lots of 27). It's the mid size tv's (20~24) that are harder to come by now. Whenever a 20/21 inch Sony pops up it sells in hours not days. Even on ebay some people have paid a couple hundred dollars for 20 inch Sony tv's sight unseen that looked pretty used which seems a bit unreasonable.


Yeah there is an abundance of free or nearly free CRT tv's on my local Craigslist too. I've seen plenty of Sony 21" models though. I'm in New York. My Parents in the UK just gave away an old 21" Sony Trinitron with an RGB scart port. They are regular dumped on curbs too.This is why I always scratch my head when I see people post about how CRTs are rare or hard to find.

Personally, for old arcade games, I would rather play on a new arcade monitor than spend $1500 on a 20 or 30 year old PVM 25 or PVM27 and I definately prefer the arcade monitor to my old XM29.

The 20" Sony PVM / BVM and the Ikegami TM20 series is a different proposition. I've seen that some people are espiecially sensative to and bothered by minor geometry issues etc. If an image with technical excellence is more important than authenticity, they are a valid choice imo. They just are not worth the $500 - $2000 that some eBay sellers now ask.

Yesterday I watched a 2006 Ikegami TM20 -17r sell by auction on eBay for $150 plus $70 for shipping. That was the right sort of price imo because these things are not that rare and we are talking about vintage electronics (that could break any day). They are awesome though.

Rare and desirable are rarely the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:23 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 578
Classicgamer wrote:
Yeah there is an abundance of free or nearly free CRT tv's on my local Craigslist too. I've seen plenty of Sony 21" models though. I'm in New York. My Parents in the UK just gave away an old 21" Sony Trinitron with an RGB scart port. They are regular dumped on curbs too.This is why I always scratch my head when I see people post about how CRTs are rare or hard to find.

Personally, for old arcade games, I would rather play on a new arcade monitor than spend $1500 on a 20 or 30 year old PVM 25 or PVM27 and I definately prefer the arcade monitor to my old XM29.

The 20" Sony PVM / BVM and the Ikegami TM20 series is a different proposition. I've seen that some people are espiecially sensative to and bothered by minor geometry issues etc. If an image with technical excellence is more important than authenticity, they are a valid choice imo. They just are not worth the $500 - $2000 that some eBay sellers now ask.

Yesterday I watched a 2006 Ikegami TM20 -17r sell by auction on eBay for $150 plus $70 for shipping. That was the right sort of price imo because these things are not that rare and we are talking about vintage electronics (that could break any day). They are awesome though.

Rare and desirable are rarely the same thing.


I really agree with that. However I think it's subsiding. Back 5 years ago when we talked about it you were probably the first person to have the opinion that pro monitors were overrated (and in my opinion you were right). Back then gamers were flocking to pro monitors in troves and many online articles were coming up calling them the best crt's etc. Like many, I jumped into the craze as well, with pretty high expectations I'd add. Although technically these monitors are amazing, it just doesn't deliver an image that I recognize as a classic crt picture and ultimately I ended up somewhat disappointed. I think a lot of those articles really launched a fad. Probably also helped a few small businesses who found a market for releasing so many accessories to use on these, some of which is really helpful even on non pro monitors which is nice. Now I see a near 50/50 split between people who favor pro monitors and people who prefer consumer or arcade grade monitors. There are endless Reddit posts reflecting how much these preferences have changed in the last 2 to 3 years as well.

Also to be fair you can tweak a consumer crt and get close to the same geometry as found on a pvm/bvm. It will be difficult, and will require a lot of time and sweat working on the inside of the tube, often times with additional equipment, but it's feasible, and in the end geometry is never perfect anyway, not even on pvm/bvm's.

The other advantage that's very clear to pro monitors especially BVM's is colors. In my experience with some effort you can get something like a 95% perfect color calibration a consumer tube and that's about it (and I'm thinking of higher end sd tubes for this), but those pro monitors can be calibrated to perfection in terms of the colors. Those scanlines are still too unappealing to make it worth it to me though.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:04 pm 



Joined: 04 Jun 2015
Posts: 195
Classicgamer wrote:
The Makvision I have has a Toshiba tube and the adapter it comes with does no signal conversion.


Are you able to share the model number of your Toshiba tube that came with the Makvision, please?


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:32 pm 


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Posts: 543
Taiyaki wrote:
Now I see a near 50/50 split between people who favor pro monitors and people who prefer consumer or arcade grade monitors.



I don't think that's really true. Yes there are people, like the two of you in this thread, who prefer to have some bloom and less TVL - a more nostalgic response I guess?

Personally, I prefer the pro monitor. However, I only possess consumer CRTs at this time because the PVM/BVM price insanity. My belief is a lot of people say they prefer what they have simply to justify it to themselves. I.e. people who can't or won't pay for a PVM/BVM get online and talk about how great consumer sets are simply because it's what's accessible to them and they are self-validating.

The professional SD monitor, as well as mid-tier and better PC CRTs, offer an objectively superior picture. I'm not going to say you are wrong for liking what you like, but speaking only for myself, I don't have any nostalgia for mediocre CRTs.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 5:34 am 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 578
maxtherabbit wrote:
I don't think that's really true. Yes there are people, like the two of you in this thread, who prefer to have some bloom and less TVL - a more nostalgic response I guess?

Personally, I prefer the pro monitor. However, I only possess consumer CRTs at this time because the PVM/BVM price insanity. My belief is a lot of people say they prefer what they have simply to justify it to themselves. I.e. people who can't or won't pay for a PVM/BVM get online and talk about how great consumer sets are simply because it's what's accessible to them and they are self-validating.

The professional SD monitor, as well as mid-tier and better PC CRTs, offer an objectively superior picture. I'm not going to say you are wrong for liking what you like, but speaking only for myself, I don't have any nostalgia for mediocre CRTs.


In this day and age where people tend to flock towards like minded people, or at least towards people with similar hobbies, I'd be very surprised if any crt collector or gamer who has gone back towards crt's has not experienced a pro monitor in some form in some place or other. At least people I speak to have had or seen some form of pvm before finding themselves returning to consumer tv's. Yes pro gear is much more expensive, and consumer tubes are free, and of course perhaps some people go online to claim the stuff they have is better without comparing, but I think this goes both ways as I've seen some people state that PVM's are crt's as they remember it. Clearly they didn't pick up a consumer tube to do a comparison, or they are just seriously misremembering what their previous tv's were like.

Myself after having gone for the top of the line pro tubes and having invested hundreds into all the equipment necessary to set everything up (multiple high end BVM/PVM monitors including two BVM-20G1U, BNC cables, scarts, switchers etc etc) I decided one day to pick up some free Sony FS120 that was in the neighborhood out of curiosity to see how a consumer tube compared. The tube was heavily worn, had relatively mediocre colors and poor geometry and focus, but it was love at first sight, the image was so much more natural and true to what tv's looked like for the first 20+ years of my life. I almost felt deceived by all the stuff people wrote online about pro monitors as the end all of crt's. Of course I didn't settle on that specific tv, as I went around hunting for many more crt's before settling down, but it was an eye opening experience.

There exists of course middle of the line pro monitors with 500ish lines with more moderate scanlines, and I do find these pro tv's more attractive, but still not enough to favor them.

Of course pro monitors are objectively speaking better than consumer models, but objectively speaking high end OLED tv's are also very much better than those old pro crt's. Everything is relative. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 2:31 pm 


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Taiyaki wrote:
At least people I speak to have had or seen some form of pvm before finding themselves returning to consumer tv's. Yes pro gear is much more expensive, and consumer tubes are free, and of course perhaps some people go online to claim the stuff they have is better without comparing, but I think this goes both ways as I've seen some people state that PVM's are crt's as they remember it. Clearly they didn't pick up a consumer tube to do a comparison, or they are just seriously misremembering what their previous tv's were like.

I'm not saying they have never compared the two, I'm saying they are engaging in self-delusion


Taiyaki wrote:
The tube was heavily worn, had relatively mediocre colors and poor geometry and focus, but it was love at first sight, the image was so much more natural and true to what tv's looked like for the first 20+ years of my life. I almost felt deceived by all the stuff people wrote online about pro monitors as the end all of crt's.

You were happy because it matched your memories. That's great but remember that's not what everyone wants. I remember a lot of horrible garbage, and reliving it does not bring me joy. I want to experience things that surpass my memories, to enjoy the quality of items as an adult that were out of my reach as a child.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:18 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2014
Posts: 578
maxtherabbit wrote:
You were happy because it matched your memories. That's great but remember that's not what everyone wants. I remember a lot of horrible garbage, and reliving it does not bring me joy. I want to experience things that surpass my memories, to enjoy the quality of items as an adult that were out of my reach as a child.

Well to be fair I think most people who go back to crt's do so because playing retro games on modern tv's is not "what they remember", so conversely I think one can argue yes such people are going back to find a picture they recognize from their childhood/youth/adulthood with classic consoles. I never meant to say that that's what everyone wants, of course there are many other reasons for going back to crt's as well.

I didn't settle with what I had in my childhood either, I went up the rank towards noticeably better consumer crt's than I had ever seen in my lifetime. I ended up settling on the Sony FV300's which I consider to be the best of classic consumer crt's that I could find. I tried the FV310 which is often regarded as the best in a couple online articles/blogs but the lack of blooming was a joy killer to me. The idea of a bloom free crt is like an oxymoron in my view. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 3:32 pm 


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Taiyaki wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
You were happy because it matched your memories. That's great but remember that's not what everyone wants. I remember a lot of horrible garbage, and reliving it does not bring me joy. I want to experience things that surpass my memories, to enjoy the quality of items as an adult that were out of my reach as a child.

Well to be fair I think most people who go back to crt's do so because playing retro games on modern tv's is not "what they remember", so conversely I think one can argue yes such people are going back to find a picture they recognize from their childhood/youth/adulthood with classic consoles. I never meant to say that that's what everyone wants, of course there are many other reasons for going back to crt's as well.

I didn't settle with what I had in my childhood either, I went up the rank towards noticeably better consumer crt's than I had ever seen in my lifetime. I ended up settling on the Sony FV300's which I consider to be the best of classic consumer crt's that I could find. I tried the FV310 which is often regarded as the best in a couple online articles/blogs but the lack of blooming was a joy killer to me. The idea of a bloom free crt is like an oxymoron in my view. lol

The characteristic raster of any CRT, pro or otherwise, draws the image in a way fundamentally different from any modern display. I think that's why we are all here. No matter how much you spend on scalers and OLEDs it never looks the same. We can argue over whether the bloom is an intrinsic part of that, but I'm sure you'd acknowledge that even a BVM still has that CRT essence that an OLED lacks.

I'm not attracted to the CRT essence because of memory or nostalgia, I'm attracted to it because I think it looks awesome.

(Not to mention the oppressive cost of OLEDs and the fact they will burn in at a harsh word and destroy themselves.)


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:30 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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If I could forego CRTs, I probably would; but I need at least one around in order to play light gun games (with the exception of patched Zapper ROMs). Once someone develops a compatibility layer or a flat panel that can convincingly simulate an electron beam with input lag matching that of a CRT, I'd have no problem removing the CRTs from my home. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 4:53 pm 



Joined: 04 May 2014
Posts: 189
Location: germany
maxtherabbit wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
You were happy because it matched your memories. That's great but remember that's not what everyone wants. I remember a lot of horrible garbage, and reliving it does not bring me joy. I want to experience things that surpass my memories, to enjoy the quality of items as an adult that were out of my reach as a child.

Well to be fair I think most people who go back to crt's do so because playing retro games on modern tv's is not "what they remember", so conversely I think one can argue yes such people are going back to find a picture they recognize from their childhood/youth/adulthood with classic consoles. I never meant to say that that's what everyone wants, of course there are many other reasons for going back to crt's as well.

I didn't settle with what I had in my childhood either, I went up the rank towards noticeably better consumer crt's than I had ever seen in my lifetime. I ended up settling on the Sony FV300's which I consider to be the best of classic consumer crt's that I could find. I tried the FV310 which is often regarded as the best in a couple online articles/blogs but the lack of blooming was a joy killer to me. The idea of a bloom free crt is like an oxymoron in my view. lol

The characteristic raster of any CRT, pro or otherwise, draws the image in a way fundamentally different from any modern display. I think that's why we are all here. No matter how much you spend on scalers and OLEDs it never looks the same. We can argue over whether the bloom is an intrinsic part of that, but I'm sure you'd acknowledge that even a BVM still has that CRT essence that an OLED lacks.

I'm not attracted to the CRT essence because of memory or nostalgia, I'm attracted to it because I think it looks awesome.


(Not to mention the oppressive cost of OLEDs and the fact they will burn in at a harsh word and destroy themselves.)


totally agree with maxtherabbit.
If this all was just about nostlagia, no one here would mod their consoles, buy rgb cables or use any kind of everdrive. The majority would stick with their plain RF or composite console an be happy with it. The truth is that almost everyone (at least here) has his consoles modded with any kind of audio/video/ode improving gimmick.
Using a pro monitor, in my eyes, is the same kind of improvement which we did not had in the 90s when we were kids. I`m pretty sure that everyone would`ve swapped his 13" rf only tv set for a 20" bvm back in the day if he just had the chance for it :)

btw for our european users. If you really want to try out an arcade monitor, you can often find hantarex polo star 25 or 28" trisync monitors brand new in the box in italy, spain or netherlands. These are pretty damn good devices. Personaly I want to stick with pro monitors with their proper housing :)


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:05 pm 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
but I'm sure you'd acknowledge that even a BVM still has that CRT essence that an OLED lacks.


Not completely true. My BVM 14M4DE is best described as a crossbreed between a CRT and an LCD.
The image is so refined and detailed that it looks like almost a (very) high end LCD with an 8k panel and some sort of very high quality filter applied.

On the opposite side of the spectrum, there's the Nanao MS8 29" I have on my Astro City cab. Now, this is a "true" CRT, with blooming, geometry issues and out-of-focus edges. This is what one would normally expect from a CRT.
And, mind you, I have completely recapped the thing and done several adjustments.

So YMMV.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:31 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Taiyaki wrote:
At least people I speak to have had or seen some form of pvm before finding themselves returning to consumer tv's. Yes pro gear is much more expensive, and consumer tubes are free, and of course perhaps some people go online to claim the stuff they have is better without comparing, but I think this goes both ways as I've seen some people state that PVM's are crt's as they remember it. Clearly they didn't pick up a consumer tube to do a comparison, or they are just seriously misremembering what their previous tv's were like.

I'm not saying they have never compared the two, I'm saying they are engaging in self-delusion


Taiyaki wrote:
The tube was heavily worn, had relatively mediocre colors and poor geometry and focus, but it was love at first sight, the image was so much more natural and true to what tv's looked like for the first 20+ years of my life. I almost felt deceived by all the stuff people wrote online about pro monitors as the end all of crt's.

You were happy because it matched your memories. That's great but remember that's not what everyone wants. I remember a lot of horrible garbage, and reliving it does not bring me joy. I want to experience things that surpass my memories, to enjoy the quality of items as an adult that were out of my reach as a child.


He never said everyone agrees with him. He specifically said that opinions were split.which is 100% true.

I have both pro and arcade monitors. I like both for different reasons. It's not delusion, you just don't understand the issue properly. There are very valid technical reasons for why low res images can look nicer on arcade monitors or TVs with a corse pitch than they would on a 900 tvl pro monitor.

When the pitch is too fine, round objects develop jagged edges. Those "jaggies" are an image artifact and not a desirable effect. They should not be there.

Similarly, with too little bloom, you get large visible gaps between scanlines. These have always been considered an artifact by home theater enthusiasts. It's why people who care about image quality used to use line doublers with CRT projectors and larger screens for 480i content. Back in the day, nobody was asking for thicker "scanlines".

There is a flip-side too. Pro monitors (and high end tv's) have amazing contrast which is the single most important feature with image quality. It really makes the image pop and gives pro monitors a special look. 20" models usually have great geometry, convergence and comprehensive user controls.

It is absolutely a matter of opinion and preference for which is best. The main reason for using a CRT these days is for authenticity. There is a good argument for saying that you can't get better than the original cab in this respect. We go to great lengths to use native resolutions and refresh rates to make games look right and a screen with the right size pitch is part of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:45 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Quote:
mories, to enjoy the quality of items as an adult that were out of my reach as a child.

Well to be fair I think most people who go back to crt's do so because playing retro games on modern tv's is not "what they remember", so conversely I think one can argue yes such people are going back to find a picture they recognize from their childhood/youth/adulthood with classic consoles. I never meant to say that that's what everyone wants, of course there are many other reasons for going back to crt's as well.

I didn't settle with what I had in my childhood either, I went up the rank towards noticeably better consumer crt's than I had ever seen in my lifetime. I ended up settling on the Sony FV300's which I consider to be the best of classic consumer crt's that I could find. I tried the FV310 which is often regarded as the best in a couple online articles/blogs but the lack of blooming was a joy killer to me. The idea of a bloom free crt is like an oxymoron in my view. lol[/quote]
The characteristic raster of any CRT, pro or otherwise, draws the image in a way fundamentally different from any modern display. I think that's why we are all here. No matter how much you spend on scalers and OLEDs it never looks the same. We can argue over whether the bloom is an intrinsic part of that, but I'm sure you'd acknowledge that even a BVM still has that CRT essence that an OLED lacks.

I'm not attracted to the CRT essence because of memory or nostalgia, I'm attracted to it because I think it looks awesome.


(Not to mention the oppressive cost of OLEDs and the fact they will burn in at a harsh word and destroy themselves.)[/quote]

totally agree with maxtherabbit.
If this all was just about nostlagia, no one here would mod their consoles, buy rgb cables or use any kind of everdrive. The majority would stick with their plain RF or composite console an be happy with it. The truth is that almost everyone (at least here) has his consoles modded with any kind of audio/video/ode improving gimmick.
Using a pro monitor, in my eyes, is the same kind of improvement which we did not had in the 90s when we were kids. I`m pretty sure that everyone would`ve swapped his 13" rf only tv set for a 20" bvm back in the day if he just had the chance for it :)

btw for our european users. If you really want to try out an arcade monitor, you can often find hantarex polo star 25 or 28" trisync monitors brand new in the box in italy, spain or netherlands. These are pretty damn good devices. Personaly I want to stick with pro monitors with their proper housing :)[/quote]

I think that using an RGB connection is absolutely part of nostalgia. I always hooked my consoles up via RGB and that is what 99.9% of arcade monitors used. So, to make games look how I remember, it has to be RGB.

I understand that Americans never had an RGB option at home when they were kids but, if they had, serious gamers would have used it.

It's hard to say if people would have chosen to game on BVMs in the 80's and 90's given how cost prohibitive they were. I do remember discussions among gamers about RGB vs RF and composite. Just like now, opinions were split between those who like max clarity and color separation vs those who prefered smooth blended edges.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:46 pm 



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xga wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
The Makvision I have has a Toshiba tube and the adapter it comes with does no signal conversion.


Are you able to share the model number of your Toshiba tube that came with the Makvision, please?


I'll take a look later when I get home to see if I left the sticker on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:48 pm 



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svensonson wrote:
If this all was just about nostlagia, no one here would mod their consoles, buy rgb cables or use any kind of everdrive. The majority would stick with their plain RF or composite console an be happy with it. The truth is that almost everyone (at least here) has his consoles modded with any kind of audio/video/ode improving gimmick.
Using a pro monitor, in my eyes, is the same kind of improvement which we did not had in the 90s when we were kids. I`m pretty sure that everyone would`ve swapped his 13" rf only tv set for a 20" bvm back in the day if he just had the chance for it :)

btw for our european users. If you really want to try out an arcade monitor, you can often find hantarex polo star 25 or 28" trisync monitors brand new in the box in italy, spain or netherlands. These are pretty damn good devices. Personaly I want to stick with pro monitors with their proper housing :)

There's a major difference between upgrading to a pro monitor (which will result in a completely different picture) and just upgrading your video connections. In fact most people who own crt's also upgrade, if not to the best S-video and component cables they can find, they upgrade to rgb using RGB to YUV encoders (I'm pretty sure almost everyone here using consumer tv's has tried at least one). This also leads to buying scart switch boxes, all the expensive cabling etc. I think one can argue the benefits of RGB when running on a consumer crt (especially if the tv has outstanding s-video/component quality), but yet people do it. There are also quite a few enthusiasts who internally mod their consumer crt to rgb (or sometimes have them modded by others).

As a kid if I had seen a BVM I'm pretty sure I would have reacted to it the same way I reacted to it now a days. Those scanlines are not to my liking. Some people love them however. It really comes down to preference.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:52 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
I have both pro and arcade monitors. I like both for different reasons. It's not delusion, you just don't understand the issue properly. There are very valid technical reasons for why low res images can look nicer on arcade monitors or TVs with a corse pitch than they would on a 900 tvl pro monitor.

When the pitch is too fine, round objects develop jagged edges. Those "jaggies" are an image artifact and not a desirable effect. They should not be there.

Similarly, with too little bloom, you get large visible gaps between scanlines. These have always been considered an artifact by home theater enthusiasts. It's why people who care about image quality used to use line doublers with CRT projectors and larger screens for 480i content. Back in the day, nobody was asking for thicker "scanlines".

I understand your argument - I just don't agree with your opinion of what constitutes "nicer"

Again, this is a matter of opinion, but when I'm looking at 240p content I expect the edges to be jagged. Because when you are dealing with 320x240 pixels things are just inherently blocky. I don't want the display to "anti-alias" the image for me, I want to see the purest representation of the original signal.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:56 pm 



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Classicgamer wrote:
I think that using an RGB connection is absolutely part of nostalgia. I always hooked my consoles up via RGB and that is what 99.9% of arcade monitors used. So, to make games look how I remember, it has to be RGB.

I understand that Americans never had an RGB option at home when they were kids but, if they had, serious gamers would have used it.

It's hard to say if people would have chosen to game on BVMs in the 80's and 90's given how cost prohibitive they were. I do remember discussions among gamers about RGB vs RF and composite. Just like now, opinions were split between those who like max clarity and color separation vs those who prefered smooth blended edges.


Exactly. I remember when my parents worked in France and we were living there I discovered scart, and at first I didn't realize that many of these were actually composite with less pins and not true RGB. Once I found out I was blown away by the difference. European gamers had Scart and US gamers had S-video and later Component (European models also had Component but it came a bit later from what I understand). Of course RGB is the purest connection but I think all three of these connections are outstanding and it really depends on how good the tv is at handling them.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 6:59 pm 


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Classicgamer wrote:
He never said everyone agrees with him. He specifically said that opinions were split.which is 100% true.

of course there are different opinions, but he said it was 50/50

I'm positing that if people were being totally honest about it, more than 50% would prefer the "better" CRTs - not that it would be 100% either way


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:02 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Again, this is a matter of opinion, but when I'm looking at 240p content I expect the edges to be jagged. Because when you are dealing with 320x240 pixels things are just inherently blocky. I don't want the display to "anti-alias" the image for me, I want to see the purest representation of the original signal.

You can get a pure representation on a very high end modern display too and it will be even sharper than any Pro CRT can achieve.

maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
He never said everyone agrees with him. He specifically said that opinions were split.which is 100% true.

of course there are different opinions, but he said it was 50/50

I'm positing that if people were being totally honest about it, more than 50% would prefer the "better" CRTs - not that it would be 100% either way

Obviously I was using a random number, there's no empirical evidence to prove how many favor which, but it's a fact that people are more split over the two (consumer vs pro), where as back 5 years ago or so it was almost unanimously in favor of pro monitors in communities like here. So yes it's changed a lot over the years.


Last edited by Taiyaki on Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:10 pm 


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Taiyaki wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Again, this is a matter of opinion, but when I'm looking at 240p content I expect the edges to be jagged. Because when you are dealing with 320x240 pixels things are just inherently blocky. I don't want the display to "anti-alias" the image for me, I want to see the purest representation of the original signal.

You can get a pure representation on a very high end modern display too and it will be even sharper than any Pro CRT can achieve.

yes, and if I could get a very high end modern display with 0 lag and 0 burn in, that doesn't cost a fortune, I'd probably use it exclusively

that said, even the absolute best fixed pixel displays lack a certain "depth" that a CRT's raster has (pro or consumer)

Taiyaki wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
He never said everyone agrees with him. He specifically said that opinions were split.which is 100% true.

of course there are different opinions, but he said it was 50/50

I'm positing that if people were being totally honest about it, more than 50% would prefer the "better" CRTs - not that it would be 100% either way

Obviously I was using a random number, there's no empirical evidence to prove how many favor which, but it's a fact that people are more split over the two (consumer vs pro), where as back 5 years ago or so it was almost unanimously in favor of pro monitors in communities like here. So yes it's changed a lot over the years.

all I'm saying is I believe that "shift" is at least somewhat attributable to the rising cost of professional CRTs


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:17 pm 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
all I'm saying is I believe that "shift" is at least somewhat attributable to the rising cost of professional CRTs

Pro monitors were already expensive back then too. Consumer crt's have risen in cost proportionally. I mean in recent months several sought after Sony models have been selling for multiple hundred dollars used.

You have an interesting point of view, if I understand correctly for you crt's are a sort of stepping stone until modern technologies are able to perform better in your view.

Still I think you do misunderstand the mindset of many here who are more inclined to embrace the so called "flaws" of crt's as it provides the nicest picture to many of us. I think Classicgamer provided a good partial explanation on this:

Classicgamer wrote:
There are very valid technical reasons for why low res images can look nicer on arcade monitors or TVs with a corse pitch than they would on a 900 tvl pro monitor.

When the pitch is too fine, round objects develop jagged edges. Those "jaggies" are an image artifact and not a desirable effect. They should not be there.

Similarly, with too little bloom, you get large visible gaps between scanlines. These have always been considered an artifact by home theater enthusiasts. It's why people who care about image quality used to use line doublers with CRT projectors and larger screens for 480i content. Back in the day, nobody was asking for thicker "scanlines".


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:36 pm 


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Taiyaki wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
all I'm saying is I believe that "shift" is at least somewhat attributable to the rising cost of professional CRTs

Pro monitors were already expensive back then too. Consumer crt's have risen in cost proportionally. I mean in recent months several sought after Sony models have been selling for multiple hundred dollars used.

You have an interesting point of view, if I understand correctly for you crt's are a sort of stepping stone until modern technologies are able to perform better in your view.

Still I think you do misunderstand the mindset of many here who are more inclined to embrace the so called "flaws" of crt's as it provides the nicest picture to many of us. I think Classicgamer provided a good partial explanation on this:

Classicgamer wrote:
There are very valid technical reasons for why low res images can look nicer on arcade monitors or TVs with a corse pitch than they would on a 900 tvl pro monitor.

When the pitch is too fine, round objects develop jagged edges. Those "jaggies" are an image artifact and not a desirable effect. They should not be there.

Similarly, with too little bloom, you get large visible gaps between scanlines. These have always been considered an artifact by home theater enthusiasts. It's why people who care about image quality used to use line doublers with CRT projectors and larger screens for 480i content. Back in the day, nobody was asking for thicker "scanlines".


Honestly I think I do understand your perspective, I just don't share it. You like the "flaws" of the consumer CRT as a sort of filter. They provide an image that in your opinion is more consistent with the intent of the original signal, even if it diverges from the exact signal itself. I prefer to see the precise signal. Which is fine, we can all still be friends. :lol:

The more I think about it, it may well have to do with background. As an American growing up middle class in the 80s/90s all we had were solidly mediocre CRT TVs with composite video at best. At the same time, I also had a PC with DOS games, so I was fully aware that the consoles looked like a pile of shit in comparison. I think I have a sort of "anti-nostalgia" about the way my old consoles looked at the time, because I'm still bitter about it.

My "benchmark" growing up was a VGA CRT with 320x240 DOS games being double scanned by the video card. Of course this looked blocky as hell and had thin but sharp scanlines (the blank lines between). I suppose this shaped my opinions as an adult. When the dreamcast VGA box first hit the scene, I bought one immediately and never looked back.

P.S. - Regarding the bloom - I'm willing to acknowledge that it diminishing the appearance of gaps between scanlines (the actual scanlines, not the blank lines between them) is a benefit. But what I find unforgivable about the bloom is that things change scale based on luminance. I just can't get on board with that.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:11 pm 



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Classicgamer wrote:
The Makvision I have has a Toshiba tube

That looks to be a running change that was made some time back when the Toshiba tubes went NLA. Anything still floating around in inventory these days will have a LG (Samsung) tube in it.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 8:45 pm 



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I think it's also important to remember that our memories are not photographic despite what we may think. In a lot of cases, how we "think" things looked or felt back when we were children isn't what it actually was like. It's just that 20-30 years of time going on has diluted those memories. (Along with changes to our vision that happens as we get older).

In the end, people should always go with what looks good to them. Not what they think things looked like back then (because I can almost fully guarantee you that your memory is faulty simply due to you being a human being), but what they want it to look like.

For some, that means getting a professional monitor with immaculate convergence and brightness, etc. For others, it means a consumer grade CRT set that has small flaws an issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:24 am 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
Honestly I think I do understand your perspective, I just don't share it. You like the "flaws" of the consumer CRT as a sort of filter. They provide an image that in your opinion is more consistent with the intent of the original signal, even if it diverges from the exact signal itself. I prefer to see the precise signal. Which is fine, we can all still be friends. :lol:

I think that technically they may be considered flaws but I view them more as peculiarities of the technology. I find that they actually accentuate the picture providing it more balance and a more organic look for low res content, just my opinion anyway. Eventhough I have different preferences I understand where you're coming from too.

maxtherabbit wrote:
The more I think about it, it may well have to do with background. As an American growing up middle class in the 80s/90s all we had were solidly mediocre CRT TVs with composite video at best. At the same time, I also had a PC with DOS games, so I was fully aware that the consoles looked like a pile of shit in comparison. I think I have a sort of "anti-nostalgia" about the way my old consoles looked at the time, because I'm still bitter about it.

My "benchmark" growing up was a VGA CRT with 320x240 DOS games being double scanned by the video card. Of course this looked blocky as hell and had thin but sharp scanlines (the blank lines between). I suppose this shaped my opinions as an adult. When the dreamcast VGA box first hit the scene, I bought one immediately and never looked back.

P.S. - Regarding the bloom - I'm willing to acknowledge that it diminishing the appearance of gaps between scanlines (the actual scanlines, not the blank lines between them) is a benefit. But what I find unforgivable about the bloom is that things change scale based on luminance. I just can't get on board with that.

So perhaps in a way nostalgia does play some sort of part in your preferences in crt's after all, just that you have nostalgia for a different type of picture. :)
I love the computer monitor look too. Actually I wouldn't want to play classic computer games on a consumer crt, it would have to be the kind of monitor you describe or something close to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:42 pm 



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energizerfellow‌ wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
The Makvision I have has a Toshiba tube

That looks to be a running change that was made some time back when the Toshiba tubes went NLA. Anything still floating around in inventory these days will have a LG (Samsung) tube in it.


I bought it a few months ago so what I got is what is being sold now. I couldn't say if some used a different brand tube as I have only seen my one.

If there were some with LG tubes, I would consider it an upgrade. My Billabs has an LG tube and the image is slightly better.


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 Post subject: Re: Happ down to last two new CRT monitors (maybe ever)
PostPosted: Fri Mar 08, 2019 7:10 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Taiyaki wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
Again, this is a matter of opinion, but when I'm looking at 240p content I expect the edges to be jagged. Because when you are dealing with 320x240 pixels things are just inherently blocky. I don't want the display to "anti-alias" the image for me, I want to see the purest representation of the original signal.

You can get a pure representation on a very high end modern display too and it will be even sharper than any Pro CRT can achieve.

maxtherabbit wrote:
Classicgamer wrote:
He never said everyone agrees with him. He specifically said that opinions were split.which is 100% true.

of course there are different opinions, but he said it was 50/50

I'm positing that if people were being totally honest about it, more than 50% would prefer the "better" CRTs - not that it would be 100% either way

Obviously I was using a random number, there's no empirical evidence to prove how many favor which, but it's a fact that people are more split over the two (consumer vs pro), where as back 5 years ago or so it was almost unanimously in favor of pro monitors in communities like here. So yes it's changed a lot over the years.



This is the part that a lot of people think they understand but clearly don't....

That excessively jagged pixelated image on HD displays is not extra "clarity". It isn't displaying flaws that were just hidden on a crt. Those jaggies are a scaling artifact as a result of the poor upscalers used by 99% of flat panel displays to make the low res image fit their fixed pixel grid.

The effect is comparable to when you take a low res thumbnail image and stretch it to fill your monitor. The larger it gets, the more pixelated and jagged it looks. Clarity is reduced, not improved. Clarity is improved when you use an image resolution that matches the display.

The effect on high end ultra-fine-pitch CRTs is a different but related problem. It's like the analog equivalent of a scaling artifact. The pitch on a CRT is the equivalent of it's horizontal resolution. When you take low res graphics that are designed with 320 or 640 horizontal pixels and display them on a fine pitch screen you get jagged edges that should not be there.

Round objects are meant to be round. If they look like a staircase, then it is not displayed correctly. It certainly isn't an abundance of clarity. It's a pitch that is mismatched with the image.

Those ultra fine pitch CRTs were of far more benefit to old film based sources. 320 x 240 computer graphics could be displayed on regular 600 tvl crt tv's with no loss of detail. A fine pitch 900tvl crt with great contrast can reveal extra detail from analog film content. It's why studios paid so much for them. There isn't any extra detail to reveal with cga computer graphics.


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