Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay times

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Midge_the_Mouse
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Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay times

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

I have my Philips NMS 8250 MSX2 home computer rigged up to the Framemeister via RGB SCART to correct EuroSCART to Framemeister XRGB mini passive adapter cable

On using the default Framemeister profile or any other profile in the full status screen my response times are constantly variable on a static screen no matter what i do



Example delay times constantly variable anything from 0.0.6 to 13.10 and this happens all the time in full status as scroll from page 1-5

Tried other settings and seems to make no difference any i'm very stuck

As a side note i tried the same with a Acron Electron rigged up to the Framemeister via RGB SCART to correct EuroSCART to Framemeister XRGB mini passive adapter cable
On a static screens saw no wild constantly variable delay times

Any ideas please i'm very very stuck with the Philips NMS 8250 MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay times

I have no idea if problems lays with Philips NMS 8250 MSX2 or Framemeister XRGB at my witts end and it's driving me insane
Midge_the_Mouse
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Any Framemeister or MSX2 experts know what's going on here i'm desperate for help please
:oops:
nissling
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by nissling »

The latency added by the XRGB-Mini is constant AFAIK so those numbers can be ignored.
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Fudoh
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

but might hint at a frame rate conversion. If your source is too far from the output set on the FM, the v-sync option won't work. This can either happen if you run a PAL source, but have your output set to 60Hz, or if your source has some irregular output that's too far from the standard 59.94Hz refresh.

Do you happen to know what your MSX2 does actually output?
Midge_the_Mouse
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:but might hint at a frame rate conversion. If your source is too far from the output set on the FM, the v-sync option won't work. This can either happen if you run a PAL source, but have your output set to 60Hz, or if your source has some irregular output that's too far from the standard 59.94Hz refresh.

Do you happen to know what your MSX2 does actually output?
The MSX2 is a PAL machine
On 1 page full status screen reads as
dot:720x287p

v:50 15hz

On page 2 full status screen reads as

dot:1280x576p

v:59 94hz

I don't have access to a camera until later so i can bring screens shots and more info if needed
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Kez
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Kez »

Looks like you are receiving a 50hz input and outputting 60hz. Try changing the HDMI output to 50hz, eg 576p50.
Midge_the_Mouse
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Kez wrote:Looks like you are receiving a 50hz input and outputting 60hz. Try changing the HDMI output to 50hz, eg 576p50.
I could made a mistake anyway HDMI output is 576p 50 now

On page 2 of full status screen i get

v:50 00

but i'm still seeing no real change in delay times are still going bonkers all over the place
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Fudoh
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

50.15Hz could already to far off the standard to warrant any smoother conversion.

Does en- or disabling the vsync option change anything?

I wouldn't really worry about it. The FM does the best it can with each source, so you're not missing on anything. In general you get smoother results with a 50Hz output than with a 60Hz output for running PAL sources. I try the vsync option to see if one option feels better than the other, but you'll end up with more irregular stutter if you disable it.
Midge_the_Mouse
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:50.15Hz could already to far off the standard to warrant any smoother conversion.

Does en- or disabling the vsync option change anything?

I wouldn't really worry about it. The FM does the best it can with each source, so you're not missing on anything. In general you get smoother results with a 50Hz output than with a 60Hz output for running PAL sources. I try the vsync option to see if one option feels better than the other, but you'll end up with more irregular stutter if you disable it.
With vsync on wild delay times and with it off no delay time information
I found using 576p 50 composite video profile gives me a solid 1:09 time so i might just use that for RGB?
Just seems odd composite video gives a solid times and RGB is like a roller coaster i really don't understand it?
Last edited by Midge_the_Mouse on Tue Feb 19, 2019 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

I found using 576p 50 composite video profile gives me a solid 1:09 time so i might just use that for RGB?
is this one of FBX's profiles or where did it come from? You might be able to find the option that's changed on the profile and which is responsible for the different behaviour.
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:
I found using 576p 50 composite video profile gives me a solid 1:09 time so i might just use that for RGB?
is this one of FBX's profiles or where did it come from? You might be able to find the option that's changed on the profile and which is responsible for the different behaviour.
The different behaviour seems to be using composite video output from the MSX2 not RGB and S-VIDEO profiles for the Atari and Commodore
I made it from scratch for Atari 800XL and Commodore C64 using S-VIDEO for each computer delay times were 1.10
Good idea using FBX's profiles it's only a change from NTSC to PAL will see how those work out
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

I did check all profiles still no dice
Went back to old firmware in case the new one was buggy still no joy
I'm wondering is there anything else i can do outside of the Framemeister like a hardware mods or better cables?
Any ideas please because i still don't understand how outputting from the MSX2 composite gives me no issues with delay times yet RGB does?

Bear in mind nothing has changed from the MSX2 when using composite or RGB output on page 1 status v:50 15hz and page 2 On of full status screen v:50 00 at 576p 50

:? :?
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Fudoh
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

sync interpretation...

But let me ask, besides the rolling input lag indicator in the menu, is there anything that affects your experience for RGB vs. composite? Is the scrolling worse by any standard? Even if you get a rolling lag using RGB, it shouldn't feel worse than the "fixed" lag you get on other systems or with the MSX through composite.
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:sync interpretation...

But let me ask, besides the rolling input lag indicator in the menu, is there anything that affects your experience for RGB vs. composite? Is the scrolling worse by any standard? Even if you get a rolling lag using RGB, it shouldn't feel worse than the "fixed" lag you get on other systems or with the MSX through composite.
My problem with RGB is theirs no reference point to start from i can't start tweaking because idea no if i'm starting from utter shit to best it's gonna get
My only good reference point is using a S-VIDEO profile modified to composite for the 800XL/C64 using the MSX2 composite output like this delay times are constant 1.10
The draw back with the above profile for the MSX2 is that it looks terrible to point of no use

My only other option would be to use 576p 50 for RGB and pissing in the wind hoping for the best
Last edited by Midge_the_Mouse on Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Fudoh
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

but why is it a problem? A mentioned above by nissling the average delay on the FM is pretty much constant. I know that on the earlier FW versions the status display was pretty much rubbish - never found out how the numbers shown there relayed to the real delay. Your delay on the on the will always be somewhere between 24 and 30ms - depending on locked and unlocked output, PAL vs NTSC and other factors, but you can NEVER tweak that delay by changing any options, so I don't exactly understand what the problem is EXCEPT the rolling status info you get.
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:but why is it a problem? A mentioned above by nissling the average delay on the FM is pretty much constant. I know that on the earlier FW versions the status display was pretty much rubbish - never found out how the numbers shown there relayed to the real delay. Your delay on the on the will always be somewhere between 24 and 30ms - depending on locked and unlocked output, PAL vs NTSC and other factors, but you can NEVER tweak that delay by changing any options, so I don't exactly understand what the problem is EXCEPT the rolling status info you get.
The rolling status is not it's going bonkers anything from 18.00 to 00.06 and it never stops
My only other option would be to use 576p 50 for RGB and piss in the wind hoping for the best

On a Acorn Electron PAL output is v:49 00hz on RGB yet i'm still able to get constant 1.0.10 delay times on RGB

:?
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Fudoh
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

yeah, it's something about the sync part of the RGB signal that throws the FM off. BUT, let me say it again, no matter what you see going on the status menu, it won't increase the lag by anything more than a few ms (unlocked adds like 3 or 4ms to the delay and the base lag are 24ms).

So, really, unless you feel like your scrolling is affected by a possible framerate conversion, I wouldn't care about what you see on the status screen.
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:yeah, it's something about the sync part of the RGB signal that throws the FM off. BUT, let me say it again, no matter what you see going on the status menu, it won't increase the lag by anything more than a few ms (unlocked adds like 3 or 4ms to the delay and the base lag are 24ms).

So, really, unless you feel like your scrolling is affected by a possible framerate conversion, I wouldn't care about what you see on the status screen.
Yep i understand what you mean but you can understand my frustration of not being able to fine tune over £400 worth of setup to my ideal settings
Got Atari 1040STE coming friday that ouputs RGB guess i will to have hope and prey i don't get more odd ball crazy sync issues with RGB
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Fudoh »

but you can understand my frustration of not being able to fine tune over £400 worth of setup to my ideal settings
not exactly. How does the status screen hickup prevent you from doing anything to your settings that you would otherwise do?
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Fudoh wrote:
but you can understand my frustration of not being able to fine tune over £400 worth of setup to my ideal settings
not exactly. How does the status screen hickup prevent you from doing anything to your settings that you would otherwise do?
These two cables here below works directly into SCART TV socket so i know they are not the issue but hook them up with the Euro SCART adapter for the XRGB and they refuse to work :roll:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATARI-STe-RG ... :rk:1:pf:0

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250978089310

Got a brand new problem now Euro SCART adapter for the XRGB refuse to take any kind of signal from my Atari 1040STE
I have also just read Japanese 21 pin RGB that comes with XRGB works fine just my luck i didn't order this cable thinking i would need the Euro SCART adapter instead :roll:
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Kez
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Kez »

Neither of those cables would work with Japanese 21 Pin as they are wired for SCART. Try adjusting the SYNC_LEVEL setting on the Framemeister.
Midge_the_Mouse
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Kez wrote:Neither of those cables would work with Japanese 21 Pin as they are wired for SCART. Try adjusting the SYNC_LEVEL setting on the Framemeister.
Thanks i'm gonna check this now

Edit:SYNC_LEVEL was at 9 moved it too SYNC_LEVEL 15 seems okay so far
At least the delay time is rock solid at 1.0.04 on RGB So i'm very happy with that
Sweet spots seems to be somewhere from SYNC_LEVEL 15-SYNC_LEVEL 27
What level would you recommend at please i'm on PAL?

Whilst i realize i've been a pain in the butt in this thread i have dished out the reps to those that have helped so thanks

Edit another thing i found out for the MSX2 RGB output at 576p 50 for RGB if i goto to HDMI SET then select RGB COLOR this seems to lock delay time in full status
but you lose above each time you turn on or off the Framemeister anyway and i never saw good times normally between 15 something 10
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Kez
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Kez »

There is no correct setting for sync level, just turn it up until you get a stable image.

As others have said, the delay time is almost meaningless. I do not know of anyone who uses it as a metric or is generally concerned with the number it displays. I never even look at it. If you are getting a picture and there is no obvious stutter, don't worry about the delay time at all.
Midge_the_Mouse
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Re: Framemeister MSX2 RGB wild constantly variable delay tim

Post by Midge_the_Mouse »

Kez wrote:There is no correct setting for sync level, just turn it up until you get a stable image.

As others have said, the delay time is almost meaningless. I do not know of anyone who uses it as a metric or is generally concerned with the number it displays. I never even look at it. If you are getting a picture and there is no obvious stutter, don't worry about the delay time at all.
Now that i know it's just a junk feature i will just go out buy one these instead https://shop.dansprojects.com/time-sleu ... ester.html
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