Never Lose Sync with Games that Switch Resolutions

[Galgomite]

Have I just discovered something awesome or am I the only one who didn’t know this? I have owned an Extron Emotia for a long while. I connected it my pc ages ago, was disappointed in the dull and blurry result, and never got back to it until today.
The short version: if you linedouble output from Sega Saturn through a Retrotink 2x, run from there into an Emotia and out to your OSSC via scart adapter, you’ll never lose sync—even as games switch resolutions.
I’m seeing my Saturn boot logo on my projector screen for the first time. Die Hard Arcade is now playable and doesn’t blank out for long stretches. Virtua Fighter 2 FMV doesn’t drop out. I’m kinda over the moon. I’m detecting no lag. Even the “non-interlaced” option works.
It’s obvious that on occasion, the Emotia is making adjustments. There is a moment of a blown out image Here, some scrambling there when resolutions change. But this has no impact on the OSSC. It’s as if I’m pointing a video camera at a CRT and broadcasting that to my projector.
Picture quality is fine for Sega Saturn 3D games but not super impressive. Little or no interlacing artifacts. Right now I can only confirm the Sega Saturn but that was my biggest headache. I’d imagine that OSSC1>>Emotia>>OSSC2 would work also, etc.
Are other people aware of this? Are there cheaper ways to do this? Will other Extron hardware work?

[BuckoA51]

I wasn't aware of this, I'm intrigued. Which Emotia do you have? I didn't think the old classic Emotias were framebuffer based which is the only way I can really see that this could work..

[Galgomite]

Super Emotia (1)
The monitor out says that it is buffered so there must be something going on in there.

[nmalinoski]

I'm probably being a wet blanket here, but using a device with a framebuffer to get around the sync drops is not really a new concept. What might be new information is that the Emotia (and potentially its siblings) have buffered output.

Plus, I don't think the Emotia devices are really suited for use with an OSSC. Clearly it works, but Emotias are intended to be downscalers; good if you want to get a 480p+ source running on an SD-only CRT TV, or perhaps getting a PAL source to display on an NTSC-only, SD-only CRT.

Ostensibly, you're instead trying to get low-res consoles working on a high-resolution flat-panel display, in which case something like the Extron DSC 301 HD (as discussed here) might be a better option. It's not perfect, but it has HDMI input and output, and it will accept the output from the OSSC, even 240p line4x/line5x and 480p line2x.

Do stay away from the Extron IN1508; it introduces too much lag and still requires conversion from RGB to HDMI.

[Galgomite]

nmalinoski Does the 301 not drop the image when the resolution changes? I wouldn’t object to a better solution.

[NoAffinity]

The GBS-82xx family with current version of custom firmware is doing a great job of smoothing the transitions. The transitions are almost unnoticeable now, and confirmed at 1 frame of processing lag. Shoot VGA out to the OSSC for pass thru to HDMI, or directly to VGA input if you've got a monitor that supports it. i have tested with a handful of receiving devices and the transition/sync blip does not get past the GBS.
Just putting it out there as part of the larger discussion. Give the quality being achieved by the CFW, it really does some to be the best solution at the price point.

[Dochartaigh]

The problem here might be: how much is it worth to you to get rid of those transition dropouts? RetroTINK 2x is $100 right? + $300ish (some less, some more) for an Emotia + $200 for OSSC = roughly $600 to this end... I would love that, and have the OSSC at least, but could never make myself spend that kinda dough on the Emotia.

The GBS-82xx family with current version of custom firmware is doing a great job of smoothing the transitions.

Off to research this! **EDIT** damn, 56 pages long post here already....never going to get through all that lol (going to see if there's some reviews/tutorials on it around the web

[maxtherabbit]

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal to people. I get it's a problem if you stream, but how many people really stream seriously?

Or does a moment of screen flicker in between menus really ruin your day?

[BuckoA51]

The GBS-82xx family with current version of custom firmware is doing a great job of smoothing the transitions.

So does GBS-82xx unlock input and output frame rates?

Or does a moment of screen flicker in between menus really ruin your day?

It can in some games, a second or so before you can see again is enough for you to die. Then there's games like Resi 2 on the N64, which not only switch in the menus but at random times during gameplay.

[Galgomite]

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal to people. I get it's a problem if you stream, but how many people really stream seriously?

Or does a moment of screen flicker in between menus really ruin your day?

It isn’t a moment, sadly. It might be on the right PC monitor but it’s 5 or more seconds on my projector and similar on many TVs. Die Hard Arcade on the Saturn loses sync at pretty much every transition and these are action beats.

[EnragedWhale]

It isn’t a moment, sadly. It might be on the right PC monitor but it’s 5 or more seconds on my projector and similar on many TVs. Die Hard Arcade on the Saturn loses sync at pretty much every transition and these are action beats.

I’ve discovered that the optimised PAL version of Die Hard Arcade running on an NTSC Saturn doesn’t loose sync during the transitions on my setup. You lose a bit of screen to overscan and it’s runs a touch too fast but is perfectly playable.

[thebigcheese]

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal to people. I get it's a problem if you stream, but how many people really stream seriously?

Or does a moment of screen flicker in between menus really ruin your day?

It isn’t a moment, sadly. It might be on the right PC monitor but it’s 5 or more seconds on my projector and similar on many TVs. Die Hard Arcade on the Saturn loses sync at pretty much every transition and these are action beats.

Plus on games like Chrono Cross, how many times are you entering and exiting that menu over the course of a playthrough? It gets real old real fast.

[maxtherabbit]

I honestly don't understand why this is such a big deal to people. I get it's a problem if you stream, but how many people really stream seriously?

Or does a moment of screen flicker in between menus really ruin your day?

It isn’t a moment, sadly. It might be on the right PC monitor but it’s 5 or more seconds on my projector and similar on many TVs. Die Hard Arcade on the Saturn loses sync at pretty much every transition and these are action beats.

wow I had no idea it was that bad for some people

my plasma + OSSC resyncs in about 00:00:20 as reported by 240p test suite I guess I should be grateful

similar performance on switching 256/320px modes on genesis

[NoAffinity]

So does GBS-82xx unlock input and output frame rates?

I don't know the specifics but rama could certainly provide some color (viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52172, go to the last page).

@Dochartaigh, start at the last 10 pages or so. Since rama took over the project, it's avanced quite significantly. There's good historical information going back further in the thread, but if you want to get up to speed on the current situation, the last 10 (maybe 15) pages, is all you really need, and probably not even all of that.

Or if you want to jump right in: https://github.com/ramapcsx2/gbs-control

I've been doing a lot of testing as rama's been improving the custom firmware. Here's a video testing various consoles with resolution switching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAYj-13mJQg&t=1577s This was a CFW version from a couple iterations ago, it's gotten better with continued updates, but I think this'll give you good insight.

Another option I found is the cheap chinese SCART-to-HDMI converters. Going HDMI to HDMI through them reduces the input lag, and they actually do pretty well for transition smoothing, albeit at the expense of some quality loss (oversaturation, infrequent but nonetheless present screen tearing).

[Galgomite]

[/quote]
Another option I found is the cheap chinese SCART-to-HDMI converters. Going HDMI to HDMI through them reduces the input lag, and they actually do pretty well for transition smoothing, albeit at the expense of some quality loss (oversaturation, infrequent but nonetheless present screen tearing).[/quote]

Thank you NoAffinity!
This is true! Just tried it today and it works nearly as well as the topic configuration. I had a cheap scart to hdmi converter lying around (for another purpose) that does just fine so far. Now there’s a bargain alternative! I think I’ve been so rabid about finding high video quality that I ignored “bad” options that nevertheless get the job done. I thought there would be a ton of lag and while I only had a second to check it out, lag seems reasonable at least.

[fernan1234]

It can in some games, a second or so before you can see again is enough for you to die. Then there's games like Resi 2 on the N64, which not only switch in the menus but at random times during gameplay.

Just adding this because too many people have expansion paks so this is less well known, but if you play RE2 with the regular jumper pak the game stays at 240p throughout and so there's no issue with the OSSC. So there's that workaround at least for that particular game (and IMO 240p 3-5x always looks better than 480i passed thru, 2x, or 4x on the OSSC).

[ZellSF]

OSSC>DVDO also works (when OSSC is set to 240pX2&480iX2, which I'm guessing your Retrotink 2x is doing, and the DVDO is locked to a framerate). Should be cheaper/easier to get than RetroTink 2x + Super Emotia + OSSC.

[Galdelico]

OSSC>DVDO also works (when OSSC is set to 240pX2&480iX2, which I'm guessing your Retrotink 2x is doing, and the DVDO is locked to a framerate).

Is there any particular DVDO model that goes especially well with the OSSC, for that matter?
On top of being not exactly common around here (as far as I can see, on eBay and similar marketplaces), they usually command moderately high prices. There's a VP30 at around 250 euros, and an Edge Green that goes for 300, at the moment.

Other than helping with resolution changes, it would be cool if it could also improve post processing in Line4x: due to my monitor's scaling limitations, scanlines in that mode appear uneven and look pretty awful on screen.

[AndehX]

I can definitely vouch for the GBS-82XX with Rama's custom firmware. As long as you don't mind a bit of DIY soldering and whatnot, it's definitely the best solution for the price. (easily beats the Retrotink2X)

[ZellSF]

OSSC>DVDO also works (when OSSC is set to 240pX2&480iX2, which I'm guessing your Retrotink 2x is doing, and the DVDO is locked to a framerate).

Is there any particular DVDO model that goes especially well with the OSSC, for that matter?
On top of being not exactly common around here (as far as I can see, on eBay and similar marketplaces), they usually command moderately high prices. There's a VP30 at around 250 euros, and an Edge Green that goes for 300, at the moment.

I'm guessing the VP30 and most units released after it would work, but I've only tested the VP50.

I wouldn't particularly recommend it, just echoing that if you want instant transitions there is more hardware that will do it.

[nmalinoski]

nmalinoski Does the 301 not drop the image when the resolution changes? I wouldn’t object to a better solution.

I was under the impression that it did, but then I wasn't so sure, so I did some testing for myself last night. Unfortunately, I didn't have anything on-hand to test repeated 240p/480i transitions; I did, however, notice that my TEST PS2, when transitioning from its 480i boot sequence to 240p to boot a PS1 game, did briefly drop both video and, unfortunately, audio during the transition. Video would come back first, an then audio a couple seconds later. Very disappointing, considering it makes 480i passthrough and 480i line3x from the OSSC look progressive.

I wanted to test a PS1 game that uses 480i for a pause menu and 240p for gameplay, but I didn't have one on hand (Looks like I can test with Silent Hill). Might also be worth testing its analogue input (I have a Portta HDMI->VGA adapter that I can use).

[Galdelico]

I'm guessing the VP30 and most units released after it would work, but I've only tested the VP50.

I wouldn't particularly recommend it, just echoing that if you want instant transitions there is more hardware that will do it.

I see, thanks. I guess the chain brings down more cons than pros. No big deal, anyway, I was just curious. I've no particular reason to need instant transitions - aside from personal satisfaction - and, during these first two years of OSSC, I got accustomed to such quirks pretty fast, to be honest.

[rama]

The GBS-82xx family with current version of custom firmware is doing a great job of smoothing the transitions.

So does GBS-82xx unlock input and output frame rates?

Yes, basically.
The frame rate is loosely locked to match the input, which makes it possible to do all the work on a single buffer.
Sync is being processed and regenerated, including glitch filtering. If it's a quick 240p/480i transition, output sync will stay locked.

I offer a "bypass mode" as well. In this mode, the output sync and video are replicas of the input.
CSync is decoded to separate sync, and some normalization of the sync pulses is done.
A 240p/480i transition will get through to the receiving device though.
It's basically like the OSSC in whatever its generic mode is, minus line doubling.

[NoAffinity]

I can attest that the VP30 is NOT a great solution. You have to unlock framerate to get an instant transition, but then that results in frame stutter on some consoles. Without framerate unlocked, you get the typical half second or more of lost display, like you do with other devices that don't handle it well.

[ZellSF]

I can attest that the VP30 is NOT a great solution. You have to unlock framerate to get an instant transition, but then that results in frame stutter on some consoles. Without framerate unlocked, you get the typical half second or more of lost display, like you do with other devices that don't handle it well.

Not that I've tried, but you should be able to adjust the refresh rate on the VP30 to match either the console's 240p or 480i output.

Since 240p and 480i run at slightly different refresh rates, one of them has to stutter slightly unless you want to resync with the display.

[orange808]

I can attest that the VP30 is NOT a great solution. You have to unlock framerate to get an instant transition, but then that results in frame stutter on some consoles. Without framerate unlocked, you get the typical half second or more of lost display, like you do with other devices that don't handle it well.

Emotia doesn't have frame lock.

Also, seamless switching relies on frame rate conversion/buffering.

[NoAffinity]

I can attest that the VP30 is NOT a great solution. You have to unlock framerate to get an instant transition, but then that results in frame stutter on some consoles. Without framerate unlocked, you get the typical half second or more of lost display, like you do with other devices that don't handle it well.

Not that I've tried, but you should be able to adjust the refresh rate on the VP30 to match either the console's 240p or 480i output.

Since 240p and 480i run at slightly different refresh rates, one of them has to stutter slightly unless you want to resync with the display.

Okay, I see what you're saying. Looking at the manual, it may be possible to get the VP30 synced with the specific console when unlocking, on a console-by-console basis. From the manual:

If you chose Unlock, press the Enter button again to specify the desired output frame rate. Use the
Up or Down button to increase or decrease the frame rate. Press the Output Select button again to
exit the menu and complete the output frame rate conversion setting.

[nmalinoski]

nmalinoski Does the 301 not drop the image when the resolution changes? I wouldn’t object to a better solution.

I was under the impression that it did, but then I wasn't so sure, so I did some testing for myself last night. Unfortunately, I didn't have anything on-hand to test repeated 240p/480i transitions; I did, however, notice that my TEST PS2, when transitioning from its 480i boot sequence to 240p to boot a PS1 game, did briefly drop both video and, unfortunately, audio during the transition. Video would come back first, an then audio a couple seconds later. Very disappointing, considering it makes 480i passthrough and 480i line3x from the OSSC look progressive.

I wanted to test a PS1 game that uses 480i for a pause menu and 240p for gameplay, but I didn't have one on hand (Looks like I can test with Silent Hill). Might also be worth testing its analogue input (I have a Portta HDMI->VGA adapter that I can use).

As a followup, using Silent Hill running on a PS2, going PS2->[component]->OSSC->[HDMI]->DSC 301 HD->[HDMI]->Onkyo TX-NR555->[HDMI, active 18Gbps 20ft]->Samsung LN32B360, transitions between the 240p gameplay and 480i inventory menu, it takes about 3 seconds to resync and get image again.

Adding the Portta active HDMI to VGA converter to use the DE-15 input on the DSC 301 HD, so PS2->[component]->OSSC->[HDMI]->Portta HDMI to VGA->[VGA]->DSC 301 HD->[HDMI]->Onkyo TX-NR555->[HDMI, active 18Gbps 20ft]->Samsung LN32B360, reduces the transition time to about 1 second.

I was not able to quickly test the composite input on the DSC 301 HD. (One of: it doesn't work on my unit, it doesn't like the composite output of my UltraHDMI-modded N64, or that composite output on my N64 is broken.)

So, uh, nevermind.

[rama]

Okay, I see what you're saying. Looking at the manual, it may be possible to get the VP30 synced with the specific console when unlocking, on a console-by-console basis. From the manual:

If you chose Unlock, press the Enter button again to specify the desired output frame rate. Use the
Up or Down button to increase or decrease the frame rate. Press the Output Select button again to
exit the menu and complete the output frame rate conversion setting.

Oh neat, this is what gbscontrol does automatically

[NoAffinity]

Okay, I see what you're saying. Looking at the manual, it may be possible to get the VP30 synced with the specific console when unlocking, on a console-by-console basis. From the manual:

If you chose Unlock, press the Enter button again to specify the desired output frame rate. Use the
Up or Down button to increase or decrease the frame rate. Press the Output Select button again to
exit the menu and complete the output frame rate conversion setting.

Oh neat, this is what gbscontrol does automatically

Yeah, I always figured 'unlocked' on the VP30 meant maybe it was doing some kind of detection and syncing to input...and was just doing a poor job with some consoles. I guess I should've read that part of the manual before now. It certainly seems more intuitive and user friendly the way you have it implemented.