shmups.system11.org

Shmups Forum
 
* FAQ    * Search
 * Register  * Login 
It is currently Wed Dec 11, 2019 4:14 pm View unanswered posts
View active topics



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:10 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
To start off with a TLDR: Don't update to this firmware of 2.04E if you prefer to retain 5x scale scanlines for 240p content. If you already have, I've thrown the previous firmware on my Google Drive:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1jrHuQG5-CYUStXI3llB0QicIPRrbl46R

So lets get down to it:

The major update to 2.04 is the inclusion of a "Dot Clock" and various new vertical scanline effects. In fact, the new vertical scanline effects are reliant upon the dot clock, and as such, Micomsoft has done everyone a 'favor' by removing scanlines for custom 5x scale profiles like the ones I have made.

So for 1080p mode, in order to effectively use the dot clock (and vertical scanline effects), you need to shut Zoom completely off and forgot about it. Can't use it at all or you throw off the dot clock. Instead, you must use "SMART_X2" screen mode. Next, you then have to make sure your Visual_Set values for H_Pos, V_Pos, H_Width, and V_Width are all set to defaults in order to start dialing in the dot clock.

Next, we can use one of the new vertical scanline features to help us dial in the dot clock. Artemio's checkerboard pattern comes in handy here, so we're going to use both:

Image

Once this is done, you can then go back to Visual_Set options and scroll down to the new Dot_Clock option and change it to "SEL" so you can manually set the dot clock correctly. Those 858 and 910 values were intended to be normal parameters for 320-res and I believe 352-res games. However, the value of 858 doesn't align correctly with 320-resolution (at least in the case of testing the Sega Genesis).

With manual dot clock adjustment active, you can see in the case of the Genesis 320 mode that the value of 858 is WRONG. Look closely at how the vertical scanline overlay shifts in and out of pixel alignment when attempting to use Micomsoft's suggested value of 858:

Image

After some testing, I found the actual dot clock value for 320 mode on the Genesis needs to be 855, not 858. You may also notice the alignment of the vertical scanline overlay lands in the middle of the pixels like in this example:

Image

If that happens to be the case, you'll need to shift the Visual_Set H_Pos to align the overlay properly. In my case, I also wanted to center the horzontal position of the active graphics anyway, and this ended up being a H_Pos value of 84:

Image

Right so with that all set, we now have what should be a 1280x960 'optimally timed' image. Lets have a look at all its glory on Artemio's home screen:

Image

Notice it doesn't look like the razor-sharp goodness of the OSSC's optimal timing function? Well that's because the Framemeister locks the per-pixel sampling based on the output mode. So 1080p is locked at 4 samples per pixel compared to the OSSC's single sample per pixel (FM's 720p mode is a little better at 3 samples per pixel, but it has other problems we'll get into). Here's a zoomed image of Artemio's eyeball showing the effect of 4 samples per pixel:

Image

With 320 mode now properly dialed in, we can see that it does allow the new vertical scanline feature to align properly with the pixels in the following example:

Image

Neat (sort of). Could be interesting for imitating an old LCD handheld screen look.

Okay so what about 256 mode games? Can we dial in the dot clock for those in 1080p 4x scale? NOPE! The lowest possible value we're allowed to use with the Dot Clock feature is 731, which leads to a 1096-wide pixel count. We needed to be able to reach 1024 at 4x scale, but it's not going to happen. You can't even use H_Width to try and shrink it further, as it will stay 1096 pixels wide no matter what:

Image

So to recap for 1080p: We can't dial in 256 res games, we can't use scanline effects for 5x scale, and the recommended settings for the dot clock are out of alignment. However, 320 and 352-res games can be dialed in to align with the new vertical scanline features.


Now lets get into some hot 720p action!

It turns out for 720p output, you CAN in fact dial in the dot clock for 256 res mode games! Yay! However, the values for proper alignment are exactly 1 extra than the active resolution at 3x scale. So the formula for the dot clock here is: Native res * 3 + 1. In which case for 256 res games, it's 769 on the dot clock. Likewise, 320 mode is 961 instead of 960.

The downside to 720p mode is vertical scanline overlay is STILL based on 4x scale. The vertical slices are still spaced 4 pixels apart, even though the horizontal scanline placement is set properly to 3 pixels apart. Lets take a look at how rectangular the vertical scanline effect is on a 256-res game for the Genesis:

Image


For 320-res games on the Genesis, you indeed can set the dot clock to 961 in order to dial it in nice and neat. Only problem is the screen is shifted to the left, cutting off active graphics on that side. Even when you MAX OUT H_Pos, you cannot shift it over far enough to align the frame. I've increase the brightness to show how close it comes it maximum shift, which is about two game pixels shy:

Image





-FBX
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Last edited by FBX on Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:14 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
Oh an one last cherry on top: The FM uses RGB limited mode no matter what setting you try. My E1S wouldn't show colors correctly from the Framemeister unless I set it to 601 Limited or 701 Limited. Full gave washed out colors.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:39 am 



Joined: 16 Nov 2013
Posts: 325
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Welcome to Japan, FBX! :mrgreen:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:49 am 



Joined: 04 Jul 2010
Posts: 246
Maybe now they should start making XRGB-4?
_________________
I am not an alcoholic, I'm Drunk! Alcoholics go to AA meetings.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 7:54 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
juji82 wrote:
Welcome to Japan, FBX! :mrgreen:


Which I don't understand because they used to take pride in quality craftsmanship. Now their TVs suck, their coding sucks... I sure hope their capacitors don't plummet like this!
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:35 am 



Joined: 16 Nov 2013
Posts: 325
Location: Tokyo, Japan
FBX wrote:
juji82 wrote:
Welcome to Japan, FBX! :mrgreen:


Which I don't understand because they used to take pride in quality craftsmanship. Now their TVs suck, their coding sucks... I sure hope their capacitors don't plummet like this!

Sony and Panasonic OLEDs aren't trash at all. About the other things, well, I will share my view about this with whoever comes to Tokyo and grabs a beer together, it would be a loooong chat.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 8:47 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
juji82 wrote:
Sony and Panasonic OLEDs aren't trash at all.


Ah they must have gotten their act back together then. There was a window before OLED where their LCD/LED TVs had gone to crap from the reviews I was reading.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 10:48 am 


User avatar

Joined: 06 Mar 2006
Posts: 11938
Location: Germany
Thanks for taking the time to test this!

Leaving the new overlay functions away for a moment, what's the dot clock option supposed to adjust? Does it actually control the sampling rate or does it simply act as a finer sub-pixel based horizontal width control?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:08 am 



Joined: 18 Oct 2015
Posts: 756
makes me breath a sigh of relief that I sold my framemeister when I did :mrgreen:


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:47 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
Fudoh wrote:
Thanks for taking the time to test this!

Leaving the new overlay functions away for a moment, what's the dot clock option supposed to adjust? Does it actually control the sampling rate or does it simply act as a finer sub-pixel based horizontal width control?


I'm leaning towards finer sub-pixel based horizontal width control. However, it's the only way to get 'perfect' alignment with the scanline overlay feature. Also since H_Width doesn't seem to pull it out of alignment, it seems have some quality of a sample rate. It's just difficult to say because it's locked to 4 samples per pixel on 1080p, and 3 samples per pixel on 720p. Regardless, it doesn't hold a candle to the OSSC's single sample per pixel. Also I had forgotten how HORRID the colors are on the Framemeister. When you've been using the OSSC for several months and you switch back to this thing, it feels like you rubbed feces in your eyes.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Last edited by FBX on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:00 pm 



Joined: 23 Oct 2014
Posts: 22
So.. who has been in touch with Micomsoft in the past and what requests do we have to fix things properly?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:20 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
nam9 wrote:
So.. who has been in touch with Micomsoft in the past and what requests do we have to fix things properly?


We've done that before, comprehensively in fact. Nothing came of it. Instead, this is what came out some two years later...
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:59 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2017
Posts: 92
If I'm not using scanlines, does this effect the 1080p profiles at all. Basically if I'm not going to touch the dot clock stuff, or scanlines, does this have any change on your 1080p profiles?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:03 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
Johnpv wrote:
If I'm not using scanlines, does this effect the 1080p profiles at all. Basically if I'm not going to touch the dot clock stuff, or scanlines, does this have any change on your 1080p profiles?


As long as you leave dot clock on "AT" and you never use scanlines say in 5x scale, then you're okay to keep the new firmware. However, should you at some point want scanlines at 5x scale, you'd have to roll back to the previous firmware.

I suppose really it comes down to that simply of a trade-off: Some new scanline effects for 4x scale 320-res (using Smart_X2 and 855 Dot clock), or access to scanlines in 5x scale. This is all provided you use 1080p exclusively.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:14 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2017
Posts: 92
Yeah I use 1080p exclusively, and don't use scanlines at all.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 3:22 pm 



Joined: 14 Aug 2017
Posts: 700
The scanline grid looks like it would be cool for GBA, or portable console games in general. Hoping this feature makes its way to the OSSC eventually.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 6:31 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 21 May 2013
Posts: 238
Thanks for the findings FBX, its a shame the new firmware isn't really an improvement :(

Now that the XRGB Mini has ended production has anyone asked Micomsoft if they would consider open sourcing the firmware? It just seems like this is the only way were likely to get this fixed, plus improve on the already known issues.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:27 pm 



Joined: 12 Mar 2018
Posts: 39
FBX wrote:
Oh an one last cherry on top: The FM uses RGB limited mode no matter what setting you try. My E1S wouldn't show colors correctly from the Framemeister unless I set it to 601 Limited or 701 Limited. Full gave washed out colors.


Does that apply to previous firmwares as well?

I'm a bit confused on how the Framemesiter handles limited RGB (16-235) Under the Output Range the RGB space is set to "Full". I changed it to "Limited" but the colors appear washed out unless I change the Output Color to "RGB" instead of "Auto", but I noticed that colors appear to be more overly saturated under the RGB Limited + RGB Output Color combination.

Is there something I'm doing wrong? Are the FBX profiles tuned to Limited RGB by default or is it something I have to set manually?


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:45 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
Jameson Rook wrote:
FBX wrote:
Oh an one last cherry on top: The FM uses RGB limited mode no matter what setting you try. My E1S wouldn't show colors correctly from the Framemeister unless I set it to 601 Limited or 701 Limited. Full gave washed out colors.


Does that apply to previous firmwares as well?

I'm a bit confused on how the Framemesiter handles limited RGB (16-235) Under the Output Range the RGB space is set to "Full". I changed it to "Limited" but the colors appear washed out unless I change the Output Color to "RGB" instead of "Auto", but I noticed that colors appear to be more overly saturated under the RGB Limited + RGB Output Color combination.

Is there something I'm doing wrong? Are the FBX profiles tuned to Limited RGB by default or is it something I have to set manually?


According to my E1S card, the FM appears to only output limited color range no matter what combination of settings you use. I do recall the "Auto" function switches the output to YCbCr.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:13 am 


User avatar

Joined: 27 Apr 2015
Posts: 644
Location: Bellingham, WA
FBX wrote:
With 320 mode now properly dialed in (and not really making a difference quality-wise compared to just using whatever width you want), we can see that it does allow the new vertical scanline feature to align properly with the pixels in the following example:Image


This picture looks amazing. I hope these effects are accessible on OSSC.

Great research.
_________________
Copyright 1987


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:57 am 



Joined: 19 Mar 2017
Posts: 174
Agree that looks amazing to my eyes.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:27 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
strayan wrote:
Agree that looks amazing to my eyes.


I'm a little more nit-picky. The 4 H-samples per pixel allows a slight bleed to the left. That's as good as I could dial it though.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:42 am 



Joined: 11 Jan 2017
Posts: 14
This firmware is marked as Beta so perhaps there'll be another one soonish.
Did you read the release notes here? http://micomsoft.co.jp/new/xrgb-mini/XRGBminiV2.04J.pdf
They mention a lot of the things you've noticed. It says it's under consideration disabling scan lines for zoom...
Have you tried the 910 setting for Saturn?
I don't have access to a test pattern and so relying on my eyes, when I tried the mode out I couldn't tell a damn difference ;) ... other than the horizontal shift!


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 8:11 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
the androgyne wrote:
I don't have access to a test pattern and so relying on my eyes, when I tried the mode out I couldn't tell a damn difference ;) ... other than the horizontal shift!


It just seems to help alignment with the new scanline effects as far as I can tell. However, because it still relies on 4 H-samples per pixel in 1080p, you don't really notice any improvement in sharpness. The reduction to 3 H-Samples per pixel in 720p mode ironically improves the FM's horizontal sharpness, but then you're screwed on 320 or higher games due to the left-side clipping of the picture.
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:50 am 


User avatar

Joined: 18 Feb 2015
Posts: 2317
Location: DFW area, Texas
I've toned down the negative reaction to the new firmware in my OP to be a bit more objective. I let my annoyance of the 'beta-like' problems of the new features sour my review a little too much. Bottom line is it's only a problematic firmware release if you liked to use 5x scale scanlines.

-FBX
_________________
Web Site: http://www.firebrandx.com

Twitter: https://twitter.com/FBXGargoyle?lang=en


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:41 pm 



Joined: 01 Mar 2018
Posts: 341
FBX wrote:
I've toned down the negative reaction to the new firmware in my OP to be a bit more objective. I let my annoyance of the 'beta-like' problems of the new features sour my review a little too much. Bottom line is it's only a problematic firmware release if you liked to use 5x scale scanlines.

-FBX


Shouldn't that include everyone with an HD TV??


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:45 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Posts: 179
Location: Burlington, Vermont, USA
ldeveraux wrote:
FBX wrote:
I've toned down the negative reaction to the new firmware in my OP to be a bit more objective. I let my annoyance of the 'beta-like' problems of the new features sour my review a little too much. Bottom line is it's only a problematic firmware release if you liked to use 5x scale scanlines.

-FBX


Shouldn't that include everyone with an HD TV??

Nope. I for one hate artificial scanlines. I never use them on the the framemeister.
_________________
-the Goat
Heliopause Heavy Industries :: video game console repairs and modifications


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:14 pm 



Joined: 04 Apr 2017
Posts: 92
Yeah I don't like the scanline look either.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:28 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 28 Apr 2017
Posts: 459
Location: Bellevue, Washington, USA
+1
I've never understood the scanline craze.
_________________
Spoiler: show
  • YPbPr->Garo
    • PSP
    • PS2
    • XBox
    • Wii
  • RGB->OSSC & PVM-2530
    • Garo
    • AV Famicom
    • SNES
    • N64
    • GameCube
      • GBI
    • Genesis 2
      • CD
      • 32X
    • Saturn
    • Dreamcast
    • PS1
    • Neo Geo AES
    • SuperGrafx
      • SSDS3
    • CD-I
    • 3DO
    • Jaguar
    • HAS
      • CPS2
      • STV
      • F3
  • HDMI
    • OSSC
    • WiiU
    • Switch
    • XBox 360
    • PS3
    • PSTV


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: My findings on the new 2.04 Framemeister firmware:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:53 pm 


User avatar

Joined: 12 Aug 2017
Posts: 453
Location: Europistan
Scanlines are just a defect to me. Nobody originally thought it looked good, there was just no other way to do progressive on a standard TV. I've never grown to like that look after giving it a shot multiple times.


Top
 Offline Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 66 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: andy251203, BuckoA51, sofakng and 13 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Space Pilot 3K template by Jakob Persson
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group