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 Post subject: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 1:09 am 


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So I just realized, via the annoucement of Technics new turntables, that CES is happening at the moment
I thought it could be fun to have a thread dedicated to discussing the brand new TV models

Are there models that pique your interest? do you have questions about some of them that maybe other posters can answer? Are there features you love or lament across the board?

Let's have at it ladies and gents :)
please share your opinions, excitment and disgust regarding the 2019 models. Let's geek out!


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 12:33 pm 


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LG's OLEDs will all support HDMI 2.1, that's the big news for me. 4K 120Hz with variable refresh rate is a PC gamer's wet dream. VRR may help improve OSSC compatibility even further as well. Now the next wait is on AMD to deliver some competitive GPUs, or nvidia to support VRR. I'd guess AMD is more likely.

Bad news is we're already seeing a push for 8K. No game could be driven at that resolution for the foreseeable future, and you'd need to what, sit 5 feet from a 100+ inch screen to tell the difference between it and 4K? Movies aren't even shot in 8K, there's just no content and no point, we've hit diminishing returns already.

MicroLED sounds promising, but also very expensive and not consumer-ready yet. I would not want a TV made of those panels with seams all over it, and the panels are clear indicators to me that manufacturing yield is low and prices will be high. Samsung said last year that it wouldn't be until 2020 that we saw it at the consumer market, and that still seems correct so far. I'm not holding my breath and would rather just go OLED for now.


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:07 pm 


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do OLED TVs still burn in at a harsh word?


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 9:46 pm 


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Quote:
LG's OLEDs will all support HDMI 2.1, that's the big news for me. 4K 120Hz with variable refresh rate is a PC gamer's wet dream. VRR may help improve OSSC compatibility even further as well. Now the next wait is on AMD to deliver some competitive GPUs, or nvidia to support VRR. I'd guess AMD is more likely.


NVidia have started to support freesync in their newest drivers. Currently they're towing the line that not many freesync monitors meet their required "gold standard" for Gsync, so if good Gsync is important to you buy a Gsync monitor, but you're welcome to try on any freesync device. How HDMI 2.1 fits into this I'm not sure, one would hope it would work the same as freesync, but we'll see.

I'm definitely also interested in the LG OLEDs, I was excited for the Nvidia BFGDs but so far they all lack HDMI 2.1 which means no freesync with Xbox one, for the lofty asking price I'd have expected all the bells and whistles.
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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2019 11:10 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
LG's OLEDs will all support HDMI 2.1, that's the big news for me. 4K 120Hz with variable refresh rate is a PC gamer's wet dream. VRR may help improve OSSC compatibility even further as well. Now the next wait is on AMD to deliver some competitive GPUs, or nvidia to support VRR. I'd guess AMD is more likely.


NVidia have started to support freesync in their newest drivers. Currently they're towing the line that not many freesync monitors meet their required "gold standard" for Gsync, so if good Gsync is important to you buy a Gsync monitor, but you're welcome to try on any freesync device. How HDMI 2.1 fits into this I'm not sure, one would hope it would work the same as freesync, but we'll see.


Initial reports are mixed, so we'll see how things shake out. PCWorld showed a "non-certified" panel that flickered to black intermittently, and nvidia claimed that the monitor would flicker with an AMD card as well... They wouldn't show what monitor it was but I haven't heard of anything as widespread as they're claiming.

And AMD announced an RTX 2080 competitor today anyway so I'll just go with that instead :)


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 12:35 am 


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Quote:
and nvidia claimed that the monitor would flicker with an AMD card as well...


I thought it was PC World who said they had problems with that particular monitor on both AMD and Nvidia cards?
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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:12 am 


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I hate the way I'm being forced into using variable refresh with emulators to avoid jumping through hoops to get proper vsync. I hate the way we are looking forward to using variable refresh to overcome crappy internal OEM display video processing.

This stupid "gotta be 60Hz for compatibility" shit is collaping into variable refresh--and that's no better. It's a crutch.

It's unnecessary and it dooms us all to persistence blur.

Persistence blur from retro gaming consoles looks bad. It isn't CRT clear. It looks wrong. It will never look good. LG is celebrating faster response from OLED, but who cares? It doesn't fix persistence blur. Only rolling scan can fix it--and I can't use use rolling scan with "unpredictable" variable refresh. (There are some possiblities to overcome that, but it would require some major effort--and there's no guarantees it would work.)

1. I can't use rolling scan with variable refresh.
2. Retro console and arcade PCB hardware didn't need variable refresh.
3. Variable refresh isn't necessary to emulate retro game hardware.
4. Without rolling scan, persistence blur can't be stopped.
5. Variable refresh prevents rolling scan.

So, why do I need to use this and sacrifice rolling scan options?

Variable refresh isn't a panacea.
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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:32 am 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
and nvidia claimed that the monitor would flicker with an AMD card as well...


I thought it was PC World who said they had problems with that particular monitor on both AMD and Nvidia cards?


It was a case of PC World said that nvidia had said that it didn't work on either brands of cards. I of course don't know the real situation, but considering nvidia's anti-consumer tactics in the past (tessellating the bottom of the ocean in Crysis for example...) I would not be surprised in the least if they are crippling their drivers' Freesync support, or at the very least not really trying much at all to fix problems with anything outside of their "certified" displays.

orange808 wrote:
I hate the way I'm being forced into using variable refresh with emulators to avoid jumping through hoops to get proper vsync. I hate the way we are looking forward to using variable refresh to overcome crappy internal OEM display video processing.

This stupid "gotta be 60Hz for compatibility" shit is collaping into variable refresh--and that's no better. It's a crutch.

It's unnecessary and it dooms us all to persistence blur.

Persistence blur from retro gaming consoles looks bad. It isn't CRT clear. It looks wrong. It will never look good. LG is celebrating faster response from OLED, but who cares? It doesn't fix persistence blur. Only rolling scan can fix it--and I can't use use rolling scan with "unpredictable" variable refresh. (There are some possiblities to overcome that, but it would require some major effort--and there's no guarantees it would work.)

1. I can't use rolling scan with variable refresh.
2. Retro console and arcade PCB hardware didn't need variable refresh.
3. Variable refresh isn't necessary to emulate retro game hardware.
4. Without rolling scan, persistence blur can't be stopped.
5. Variable refresh prevents rolling scan.

So, why do I need to use this and sacrifice rolling scan options?

Variable refresh isn't a panacea.


I'm finding very little news on it, but supposedly LG also showed off an OLED with an MPRT of 3.5ms https://newatlas.com/lg-display-oled-motion-blur-sound/57908/. That's getting really close to plasma territory. They also talked about 120Hz BFI at 25% duty cycle, which should look quite nice. Can't say anything to your VRR complaints, I'll mainly be using that with PC games where it's very effective.


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 1:48 am 


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bobrocks95 wrote:
BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
and nvidia claimed that the monitor would flicker with an AMD card as well...


I thought it was PC World who said they had problems with that particular monitor on both AMD and Nvidia cards?


It was a case of PC World said that nvidia had said that it didn't work on either brands of cards. I of course don't know the real situation, but considering nvidia's anti-consumer tactics in the past (tessellating the bottom of the ocean in Crysis for example...) I would not be surprised in the least if they are crippling their drivers' Freesync support, or at the very least not really trying much at all to fix problems with anything outside of their "certified" displays.

orange808 wrote:
I hate the way I'm being forced into using variable refresh with emulators to avoid jumping through hoops to get proper vsync. I hate the way we are looking forward to using variable refresh to overcome crappy internal OEM display video processing.

This stupid "gotta be 60Hz for compatibility" shit is collaping into variable refresh--and that's no better. It's a crutch.

It's unnecessary and it dooms us all to persistence blur.

Persistence blur from retro gaming consoles looks bad. It isn't CRT clear. It looks wrong. It will never look good. LG is celebrating faster response from OLED, but who cares? It doesn't fix persistence blur. Only rolling scan can fix it--and I can't use use rolling scan with "unpredictable" variable refresh. (There are some possiblities to overcome that, but it would require some major effort--and there's no guarantees it would work.)

1. I can't use rolling scan with variable refresh.
2. Retro console and arcade PCB hardware didn't need variable refresh.
3. Variable refresh isn't necessary to emulate retro game hardware.
4. Without rolling scan, persistence blur can't be stopped.
5. Variable refresh prevents rolling scan.

So, why do I need to use this and sacrifice rolling scan options?

Variable refresh isn't a panacea.


I'm finding very little news on it, but supposedly LG also showed off an OLED with an MPRT of 3.5ms https://newatlas.com/lg-display-oled-motion-blur-sound/57908/. That's getting really close to plasma territory. They also talked about 120Hz BFI at 25% duty cycle, which should look quite nice. Can't say anything to your VRR complaints, I'll mainly be using that with PC games where it's very effective.


You can't use black frame insertion and variable refresh at the same time. :(
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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:23 am 


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orange808 wrote:
You can't use black frame insertion and variable refresh at the same time. :(


The 3.5ms persistence display seemed like something separate since I believe all their 2019 OLEDs will have the 120Hz BFI. Maybe they've implemented a rolling scan for it? Wish I could find more info on it.


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:39 am 



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That's a very nice thread. I think Micro Led really sounds very promising for the future. The VRR stuff is also intersting.

But in the General the CES was not that great for me. For example it did not answer my question if I should wait for the 2019 Oled Gen or if it is fine to get a 2018 Oled. The new models are better of course but I am not sure if they are that better to justify the higher Price.

Stuff like HDMI. 2.1 the new LG will apparently offer is nice but not sure If i have much use for it. For my curent gen stuff, the ps4 and the Xbox one S HDMI 2.1 is useless because These consoles do not offer it. For my Retro set up (Framemeister and HDMI modded consoles) HDMI 2.1 is also quite useless. So the only use for HDMI 2.1 would be the upcoming gen, PS5 and next Xbox.

I am also not that "happy" about the upcoming of 8k already. Even 4K is not that widespread and now they are already thinking about 8K? Not a very smart move. It will take some years before 8k gaming is a real Thing.

I also have lots of low res stuff, like DVD and Blu Ray. Even DVD and Blu Ray does not look that good when upscaled on my 4K Samsung, and I am rather afraid to think how bad this would look on a 8k Screen. :?


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:48 am 


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maxtherabbit wrote:
do OLED TVs still burn in at a harsh word?


I can't speak for the very first models, but for the recent ones it's a complete nonissue, provided you vary the content every now and then.


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 12:15 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
maxtherabbit wrote:
do OLED TVs still burn in at a harsh word?


I can't speak for the very first models, but for the recent ones it's a complete nonissue, provided you vary the content every now and then.


If you need to "vary the content" then it means that burn-in is an issue. Sounds like OLEDs are as suspetible to burn in as Plasmas were, latest-gen Plasmas managed to diminish burn-in by using a technic called the "orbiter function" to try to prevent or lessen burn-in, Plasmas were still suspetible to burn-in, it's just that with the orbiter function they managed to prevent or alleviate the problem (but not to fix the issue at it's core), burn-in is definitly an issue on OLEDs as it was with Plasmas so you need to be sure that if you get an OLED TV/Monitor in 2019 it is a set that has a "Pixel Shift" or "Screen Shift" function (be sure that you have it enabled in the settings of course) because the problem isn't going away by the looks of it but like with Plasmas it could be alleviated or prevented with orbiter shifting, keep in mind that even with that some TVs/Monitors could still be more prone to burn-in than others depending on manufacturers and/or models, especially if you play games for hours that have a HUD and the likes, look at what happened with this 2016 LG OLED which had the Overwatch HUD burned in (even with Screen Shift enabled):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX78-Bw9lKM


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:45 pm 


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To vary the content is just common sense, and because I knew someone would post an image of OLED burn in if I didn't mention this. If you play the same game for 12 hours every single day, or use the TV as a PC monitor with static icons on screen all day, every day, then YES you will absolutely get burn-in. But how many of us actually use our TVs like that?

I can only speak for myself having owned 2017 and 2018 sets, that it hasn't been an issue whatsoever. And that OLEDs are nowhere near as prone to permanent burn-in as plasmas have been documented several times already. Please see this video instead where they have run burn-in tests on six 2017 C7s an entire year and they come to the same conclusion as I did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOcLasaRCzY

In your video we can see a hint of the LG logo in the middle of the screen. I don't know the cases where a 2016 set displays an LG logo (I don't think mine has ever done that), but it would obviously only be for at very short time, which leads me to believe that his panel was defective, because that's definitely not normal for 2017 and 2018 sets. Again, please see the video in my link.


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 3:56 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
I hate the way I'm being forced into using variable refresh with emulators to avoid jumping through hoops to get proper vsync. I hate the way we are looking forward to using variable refresh to overcome crappy internal OEM display video processing.

This stupid "gotta be 60Hz for compatibility" shit is collaping into variable refresh--and that's no better. It's a crutch.

It's unnecessary and it dooms us all to persistence blur.

Persistence blur from retro gaming consoles looks bad. It isn't CRT clear. It looks wrong. It will never look good. LG is celebrating faster response from OLED, but who cares? It doesn't fix persistence blur. Only rolling scan can fix it--and I can't use use rolling scan with "unpredictable" variable refresh. (There are some possiblities to overcome that, but it would require some major effort--and there's no guarantees it would work.)

1. I can't use rolling scan with variable refresh.
2. Retro console and arcade PCB hardware didn't need variable refresh.
3. Variable refresh isn't necessary to emulate retro game hardware.
4. Without rolling scan, persistence blur can't be stopped.
5. Variable refresh prevents rolling scan.

So, why do I need to use this and sacrifice rolling scan options?

Variable refresh isn't a panacea.


100% this. All I really care about in new monitors is a real solution to motion persistence (the main reason why I need to keep a CRT around), since it bothers me so much especially on retro gaming but even also on modern content. Picture quality is already good enough. MicroLED will be a nice boost in brightness and durability but that's it.

The black frame insertion in 2019 LG OLEDs will be the same as in 2018 but adjustable to lower levels to achieve a higher peak brightness (and less noticeable flicker, though at 60hz I never noticed it) at the cost of less motion resolution, so this won't be that much of an improvement.

An adjustable rolling scan solution is indeed what we want, but no one seems interested in offering it. Only expensive OLED B/PVMs seem to have it, and it's still not perfect since it only does one refresh rate. Some out of production PC monitors also had it but that's it. If we do get this eventually it will most likely only be from a small PC monitor rather than a large consumer TV set, sadly.


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 4:51 pm 


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Yep. Looks like we also have an uphill battle with many emulator devs as well.

I shouldn't be forced to use adaptive refresh when normal vsync will do. Adaptive refresh is great for 1080p+ to fight frame rate dips. It's stupid for retro console/computer emulation.
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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 5:11 pm 



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Considering that LG is basically the sole manufacturer of OLED panels, and other manufacturers differentiate their OLED displays with their own control boards, software, and features; could we, as a community, design and build an aftermarket control board for the cheapest and/or most-common OLED display(s) out there that controls the panel in a way that works better for our us, and has features that we want in a display, like support for 50Hz, 576i/p, integer scaling, or windowboxing?

And, on that note, could such a board be able to drive the panel in a way that simulates a CRT electron beam writing the image, scanning left to right, top to bottom, with minimal persistence? Or are flat panels (OLED, LCD, whatever) not capable of rapid pixel manipulation?


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 Post subject: Re: CES 2019 : "new TVs to watch for 2019" discussion
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:09 pm 


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Micro LED TV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkLIBCq5RZo


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