Sony FD Trinitron any good?

[andykara2003]

This might be a question for just the European members as I think these models were only released in Europe. I'm looking at a Sony KV21CT1U Trinitron. It's one of the later flat screen silver "FD" models. I'm aware that the flat screen models have a reputation for having slightly worse convergence and focus at the corners, but I think this should be mitigated somewhat by the fact that it's a relatively small TV at 21 inches.

I've heard an opinion that these later 2000's Sonys aren't as good as the earlier black curved models but I'm not sure it that's just misinformation (a lot of this around in this field!). The positives are that this model was made in the UK and has low hours.

Lastly, being silver, the plastic has yellowed quite a bit, giving quite an ugly look. Is is possible to clean this up back to it's original colour? I know this is possible with the older style plastic on retro consoles & monitors but I have a feeling that the silver finish popular in the 2000's might be a different matter as it's quite a different finish.

[Taiyaki]

Flat screens from Sony are pretty much guaranteed to be aperture grill sets. In Europe Panasonic made some too, and I believe a few other Japanese makers. Generally the image is sharper and this is the preferred type of crt's for most gamers but yes getting perfect corner geometry AND convergence is really hard. That being said even with shadow mask technology (pre late 90's crt's) it's also near impossible to get it perfect, it's just that the curvature tends to mask those imperfections a little better to most people.

Later CRT's were controversial with some for having the appearance of being cheaper (plastic casing etc) but in terms image quality they were actually amazing, often times with sharpness and colors that had not been seen on CRT's prior to that era. They also almost always incorporated service menu geometrical settings which made it easier to calibrate geometry where as before you'd have the controls as pots on the board for these. Unfortunately for convergence you still have to get inside them however. Sorry I can't help in terms of model numbers for the EU market but hopefully someone else can.

[MKL]

I'll never recommend a FD Trinitron over an old Trinitron but if one really has to go for a flat Sony then I recommend to stick to 21" sets. I have two KV-21CT1E (same as U), both bought new, and they're pretty good in geometry and convergence. Far better than any 25" or 29" in fact (such crappy models as KV-25FX30, KV-29LS30 and all the others with the FE2 chassis).

The silver finish is spray painted (over solid grey plastic) so I think it can only be restored by repainting.

[Taiyaki]

Sorry Andy, didn't realize it was you. Yeah I think experiences will vary. I have found 2 brand new out of box late higher end non hd flat Trinitron's and while they did come out of the box looking fantastic with popping colors and pretty good geometry they did have corner imperfections as well as minor convergence issues that needed tweaking. Without playing with all the rings on the yoke and starting everything from scratch (and even if I did no guarantee it would have turned out noticeably better) I could only correct one over the other so I chose to favor geometry. End result is stunning but with sharp eyes if you focus your attention exclusively on the corners they might seem a tad softer because the convergence is imperfect there. However geometry is about as perfect as it can get on consumer sets which is my personal preference. Some people would trade some geometry for perfect convergence and that's achievable if you don't mind having a few geometrical imperfections instead.

I understand the desire to get away from the flat ones to go back to curved Sony's for the less noticeable corner imperfections but personally the loss in color intensity and general sharpness is a hard blow to me, and always makes me miss those aperture grill sets when i go back to playing on a shadow mask. There's no perfect option so it really comes down to what you prioritize I guess.

In regards to the size, to me personally I don't feel a major difference but I do tend to prefer 21 inch because it's very mobile and manageable for a single person to open up and work on. 24 inch is still alright but from 27 and up it really becomes too much of an ordeal imo and since I tend to play alone with occasional two players but never more, I find 21 gives me the ideal experience but this is really a subjective thing.

[andykara2003]

Thanks very much for your replies, I really appreciate it. I have a couple of questions, but my general feeling is that I'm not at all bothered by a little loss in convergence and geometry accuracy in the corners, especially if the overall image is better/sharper than the earlier Sonys. As I mentioned, I have a new 14" FD and it has one of the best images I've ever seen on a consumer CRT.

Later CRT's were controversial with some for having the appearance of being cheaper (plastic casing etc) but in terms image quality they were actually amazing, often times with sharpness and colors that had not been seen on CRT's prior to that era.

Taking that all the other, earlier Sony TVs were also aperture grille displays, are you saying that an unused 50/60Hz FD set is in generally sharper than an unused previous gen non-FD set, disregarding the convergence/geometry issues?

I'll never recommend a FD Trinitron over an old Trinitron but if one really has to go for a flat Sony then I recommend to stick to 21" sets. I have two KV-21CT1E (same as U), both bought new, and they're pretty good in geometry and convergence.

I saw in a post a couple of years ago that you recommended the 21CT1E (FD) as having a really nice image, but you mentioned here that you wouldn't recommend one over an older non-FD set. Is that solely because of the corner convergence/geometry issues or are there other aspects about the image that you feel are inferior?

[Taiyaki]

Thanks very much for your replies, I really appreciate it. I have a couple of questions, but my general feeling is that I'm not at all bothered by a little loss in convergence and geometry accuracy in the corners, especially if the overall image is better/sharper than the earlier Sonys. As I mentioned, I have a new 14" FD and it has one of the best images I've ever seen on a consumer CRT.

Later CRT's were controversial with some for having the appearance of being cheaper (plastic casing etc) but in terms image quality they were actually amazing, often times with sharpness and colors that had not been seen on CRT's prior to that era.

Taking that all the other, earlier Sony TVs were also aperture grille displays, are you saying that an unused 50/60Hz FD set is in generally sharper than an unused previous gen non-FD set, disregarding the convergence/geometry issues?

Yes, they made many improvements to the technology in the later years which resulted in better colors, contrast and overall brightness, also the chassis would usually offer simple geometry controls as noted before that were not commonly found in earlier 90's sets. The outer casing was regarded as cheaper and they didn't appear to have as much protection against interference and such, but in terms of components they did not cheap out from what I've seen at least, which is the most important thing imo.

The problem with the very last few years was the change towards super high pitch and hi scan tv's which although great for movies was not so great for playing classic consoles. In generally the ideal years for a top of line Sony consumer crt exclusively for gaming (assuming you want a flat screen model) would be the lower and mid range tv's from 2001 to 2004). Not sure what the models were in Europe but in the US they're generally considered the FS100, FS120, FV300 and FV310 (the latter of which has a peculiarity of having a high voltage regulator which eliminates the phosphor warping at high intensities which changes the looks of the tube in ways that may not please everyone).

[maxtherabbit]

just my personal experience with surplus TVs - but my opinion of the FD Trinitron / WEGA is pretty poor

almost all of the ones I've come across have been a blurry mess with terrible geometry issues that the service menu couldn't dial out

this could simply be due to excessive ageing however since I have no real way to determine that

[andykara2003]

If they were a blurry mess then they were definitely well used sets that have gone soft - as I say, my new 14LT1U is one of my best CRTs - very sharp and vibrant. Low hours on the tube makes so much difference.

Not sure what the models were in Europe but in the US they're generally considered the FS100, FS120, FV300 and FV310

It occurred to me that these FDs could be the EU equivalent of the USA FS sets which are considered to be excellent. Could anyone confirm if that's the case?

[Taiyaki]

If they were a blurry mess then they were definitely well used sets that have gone soft - as I say, my new 14LT1U is one of my best CRTs - very sharp and vibrant. Low hours on the tube makes so much difference.

Not sure what the models were in Europe but in the US they're generally considered the FS100, FS120, FV300 and FV310

It occurred to me that these FDs could be the EU equivalent of the USA FS sets which are considered to be excellent. Could anyone confirm if that's the case?

No question about it, I had gone through various second hand models with varying degrees of softness too, but when I bought new in box sets (seller had three and I started with one and came back for the second) the difference was like night and day. With shadow mask tubes I tend to see age in deteriorating colors (usually the blue or red gun dying out) but with aperture grille it's definitely when it's gone soft or when the contrast (aka what we now a days call brightness) goes out. It's worth noting though that it may not be all gone if you can still tweak it with the focus pot inside the casing, but if it's really had tons of wear it's likely you can only fix it so much. It definitely helps to find new units whether it be shadow mask tubes or aperture grille tubes.

FD stands for Flat Display I believe. The FS lineup was actually the entry level but by any standard they were still incredibly good imo.

[andykara2003]

FD stands for Flat Display I believe. The FS lineup was actually the entry level but by any standard they were still incredibly good imo.

Thanks for that :)

If anyone has any experience of a low hours 21" FD set that wasn't made in Spain, I'd be really interested in their opinions..

[orange808]

+1 on the FS models. I have saved quite a few on Craigslist.

I've found quite a few with low hours and they have been stunning. You will never get the geometry perfect, but it's hard to be upset (about that) when the tv is free (or very very inexpensive).

Many of them have a "professional monitor" mode that looks great for 240p. Although, that mode makes 480i flicker very annoying.

If you see one for free or very cheap, get it!

[andykara2003]

I'm in the UK & we don't have the FS models here unfortunately. The larger flat (FD) 4:3 models (25" plus) we had here aren't great because of geometry/convergence issues, but I'm looking for 21" which apparently have fewer problems in that area. My 14" FD is pretty much perfect for example - I'm not expecting even the new (unused) 21" FD I'm picking up to be quite as good as that, but I'm not too OCD about slightly imperfect corner geometry/convergence - it shouldn't bother me if the image is good otherwise. I'm looking specifically at the models made in the UK as the Trinitrons made at the Spain factory seem to be generally considered poorer quality.

Anyone else have experience of low hour UK 21" FDs?

[spmbx]

You can still pick up trinitrons of all kinds for free around here. I seriously don’t understand why people spend rediculous amounts of money on old studio equipment when a free low hour tv gives such a great image. For the record, yes i did have a bvm which i sold for stupid amounts of money

[Brando1975]

You couldn't have said it better spmbx

[gray117]

Yes you tend to run into more issues with the flat screens, but some are great... I think the issue is they were just not as consistently well made. I've tended to find some these sets were not as tolerent/accurate with colours and line levels as the older sets, but with increasing age... it's a bit of a crap shoot for any setup includings the pvm/bvms. (And if you're picky about colours build a breakout pot for each line and adjust as needed.)

I think the only real wrinkle was that someone found that some sets gave best results with sync on luma.

I've no idea on uk vs spain differences tbh never knew that was a thing.

Objectively, CRTs are still knocking around, but you're not going to be tripping over them like you used to; in any scenario get the least used set that fits your criteria and stop thinking about it. If it's only 21", cheap, then get 2, and keep one you like the best. If they're both decent ... hell... keep one as a backup/footrest.

In general, keep it to the tens $$, if you can't find what you want don't put $$$ into it unless this really is a passion thing.

[SuperSpongo]

I've heard an opinion that these later 2000's Sonys aren't as good as the earlier black curved models but I'm not sure it that's just misinformation (a lot of this around in this field!).

I can't speak for UK models but in Germany we tend to avoid the silver models for two reasons: Most, if not all of them (at least the FD ones) were 100Hz resulting in an incompatibility to most lightgun games.
Also, the later models had image processing similar to linedoubling which results in loss of scanlines. Ironically, these sets do not support progressive scan via component or RGsB / VGA either, so you really get the worst of both worlds.

There was a brief period where the Sony's had minimal curve in combination with 100Hz. Many people consider these the better sets because you trade in lightgun compatibility for flicker-free 50/60Hz images while still retaining scanlines.

[Xyga]

It's really mostly the geometry yes.

FD Trinitrons:
. 14"/21" -> good geometry or at the very least adjustable mostly with the service menu
. 27"(29") -> f*up geometry and convergence, age badly and you won't fix everything via the service menu, get your mirror and be ready for yoke manipulation, magnet strips, tons of note taking geom menu values, and losing hope (not sure there were any 25" FDs)

90's curved black casing Trinitrons:
. all sizes good and fixing geom on the large ones much easier compared to their FD big bros. They're getting old though.

Also agreed be careful of several 100Hz models around especially the late ones, and it's not clearly advertised.

--

TL;DR get a large FD only if you've ascertained it comes with perfect/near-perfect geometry and convergence already, or if you are very confident in your CRT servicing skills.

[andykara2003]

After using a splitter & playing simultaneously on a 14" FD, a 21" FD and a curved 25", all basically new sets, I've gravitated to the 14" FD. The pixel density is high enough that 240p graphics look really nice and cohesive - like I remember them back in the day. I feel that this dense, clean image is how the developers ideally wanted the games to look, rather than overly pixelated or heavily scanlined as in the current trend. I'll take it over my 21" BVM any day.

[Brando1975]

Heavily scanlined monitors like the awful BVM..

[andykara2003]

Exactly - as well as large consumer sets or blown up on big panel through a Framemeister/OSSC looking either overly blocky or heavily scanlined. I respect other's preferences but it's not for me.

[Taiyaki]

BVM's and to a lesser extent PVM's really look like an emulator running thick scanlines to me, I was so hyped when I first got one and even got a second one but it just wasn't for me. A friend of mine called it years ago back when few people were openly favoring their consumer tubes when he said it was going to be a passing fad. By the way the BVM's were not 21 inch, they were 19 and curved, so you're actually getting more or less 18 inches in view. The FD Trinitrons labeled 20 are actually 21 and flat so you get all 21 in view.

14 inch crt's can be great. A lot of us had those as kids so you get the nostalgia factor, but also in general they are easy to work with although unfortunately generally more limited in the available connections and sometimes even menu and service menu options, but for single player if sitting up close they can make for a fantastic crt experience.

20 inch is my personal prefered single player size, sit up close and it can be quite glorious, they're still easy enough to work on and tend to have all the connections and settings you'd need. 20 inch is also the size at which I consider 2 player to be feasible, although it's really at 24 inch that I consider 2 players to be optimal but that's also a subjective thing.

To me 27 and up is amazing it you can manage it (I can't) and if your setup demands you sit from a couch or far enough away that the extra size is of use (or even necessary). They require two people to move and are a lot less practical to work on, also in all likelihood most of them have been primary tv's in family houses in which they often times had extended use and as a result are really hard to find in nice condition in my experience. On the very very largest ones you sometimes get convergence settings in the service menu which can be nice, but who can manages tv's that size! lol

[andykara2003]

Slip of the tongue, I meant 20/19" for the BVM. Luckily in Europe most consumer sets had RGB scart - playing on the 14" via RGB on a 1 chip SNES is so dense & crisp - it's small, but bypasses all the negative quirks that crop up when displaying such a low resolution. Even the N64 looks reasonably good on it.