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 Post subject: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:53 am 


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In the thread about creating a database for various processor/scaler lag ( viewtopic.php?f=6&t=63739 ), I saw that Xyga posted this in one of his replies:

Xyga wrote:
Remember in their test they still give you middle-screen measurements which is not 'input lag period' but input lag+1/2frame@60, so sustract 8.3ms
For instance say you want a TV for displaying a device or two that you know will produce/cost 2 frames, but don't want your input lag chain over 2.5f (42ms); if you pick a model in their list they measured under 16ms @1080p, you're safe.
Even though we're at the end of 2018, a lot of 2017 models are still relatively easy to find, and considering the many sizes, all combined with 2018's thats quite a large choice.
Apply this to a less laggy chain and the number of eligibe models increases significantly, even up to the LG OLEDs that are just under 1 frame.


Which I found interesting enough to hook up a phototransistor to my OSSC and test it myself. And yes, assuming the OSSC measures lag correctly he is right :)

However, I did run into some weird issues measuring the lag in 1080p and 1200x1080 on my C7 last night, that I just can't make much sense of. Hence the reason for this topic.

I'll try and describe in detail how I did my measures, so someone can correct me if I did anything wrong at any point. But here they are for regular game mode, ISF and with PC mode:
Image

I measured the bottom right corner of the screen, as my cable wasn't long enough to reach the middle or the upper left, I couldn't find anywhere that said that all three areas needed to be measured, so hopefully this is not the cause of these issues :)
The first thing I did was to measure 480p using no input source on the OSSC. I took several measures and rounded up the number a bit to 12ms which seems to match what Xyga said in the other thread as HDTVtest claims about 21ms lag with the Leo Bodnar tester.

From here on I used a Super Nintendo as input, just so I could run through the various 3x (720p), 4x (960p) and 5x (1080p, 1200p) modes. I chose the SNES as it's known for being one of the most troublesome consoles to use with the OSSC, but I ran the same tests with a PS1 as well with no difference in the measured lag.

What's weird is that I initially got 12ms lag across all resolutions, which is what I expected, but after measuring the lag of the 1080p mode a few times, the lag rose from 12ms to 28ms. I switched back and forth between modes on the TV and resolutions on the OSSC, but the lag remained at 28ms. Which doesn't make any sense as all reviews I've read of the LG C7 claimed "21ms" in 1080p mode.

I then decided to run the OSSC directly to my TV, as surely this would be caused by my Yamaha RX-A1080 receiver, which I had always assumed to be completely lag free.
And the first few 1080p tests did say 12ms again, until it for no reason jumped up to 28ms just like it did with the AVR in the chain. I then tested the entire range of resolutions and there was no difference with or without the AVR. Meaning that the Yamaha is indeed lag free as I had always assumed.

But why do I get these weird measurements in 1080p and 1920x1200? I'm pretty sure that 28ms is wrong and that 12ms is correct. The measurement boxes in these resolutions are larger than in any of the others, so is there a bug in the OSSC? I tried zooming the image on the TV, to make the boxes similar in size to the other resolutions, but that made no difference.

Also, I found that disabling Real Cinema in regular ISF mode lowered the lag by quite a bit but I didn't test every resolution. 480i was measured using a GameCube with the OSSC set to pass through the resolution, so I could test the TVs deinterlacing speed.

This is the information I used to make the lag tester: http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... ncy_tester
I swapped R43 with a 150K resistor, and I used a matchbox too, to block out any light to the transistor.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:43 am 


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about where to measure: I think it's important to least compare various positions at first. You don't know how the OLED actually takes to draw a frame before it enters the "hold" position, so you can get different results from different positions (if you remember: there are LCD TVs which give you identical readouts on all three "bodnar" positions, while most others show the usual top/medium/bottom variations).

about the lag: SNES is slightly off spec in terms of the refresh rate, so it's possible that the LG can sometimes lock to the refresh rate, but doesn't always manage to do so. I would try to repeat the test with some other source, maybe something that's spot on with 480i/p and deviates towards the other end (59.xx) for 240p (instead of the 60.xx of the SNES).


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:54 am 


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Yep I thought the SNES might trigger some laggy framerate conversion 'bug'. It's possible the LG behaves somehow like the EDGE.
If so he'll probably find other variations with different sources.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:07 pm 


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But I already did. I mentioned that I checked every resolution using a PS1 too :D

I’ll extend the wires later and check if the middle and top left position makes a difference.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:23 pm 


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Oops sorry. But really you should try a broader variety of systems, if it's anything like we suspect it's possible that the 1080p and 1920x1200p modes have a narrower 'tolerance' and demand a source running very, very close to or exactly @60Hz.

The issue with how reviews websites test TVs lag is not only that they quote a single figure that corresponds to the middle of the screen only and call it 'input lag', but also that they do their testing using only the most common video modes (of course they don't think of retro games hardware)

Testing many different hardware sources at various output modes is the right way to test flat panels lag, and for that set you're probably the first person to do it and share worthwhile results.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 3:51 pm 



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Without measuring, my experience with this TV matches with your numbers. The LG OLEDs treat non-standard resolutions as PC resolutions, and therefore whether you've selected it or not, it will treat all picture modes as being on PC mode when you feed it those non-standard resolutions. PC mode basically makes all picture modes behave like Game mode, with basic picture settings like contrast, color, etc. being the only difference. So gaming in any of those resolutions will feel pretty snappy regardless of whether you've chosen PC/Game mode or not.

As suggested by your numbers the only exception would be when the TV de-interlaces 480i.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:20 pm 


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Any suggestions for sources I should try when in 1080p and 1920x1200 modes? I specifically chose the SNES as it has a reputation of being one of the most troublesome systems with 4x and 5x on the OSSC. The refresh rate is also higher than normal at about 60.1Hz. The PS1 on the other hand seems to be pretty standard at about 59.8Hz which is why I chose that one. I could do my consolized MVS which has a toggle switch for 59.18Hz and 59.94Hz?

A shame that the deinterlacing isn't faster. I'll probably stick with my Framemeister for 480i sources :)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:31 pm 


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Konsolkongen wrote:
Any suggestions for sources I should try when in 1080p and 1920x1200 modes? I specifically chose the SNES as it has a reputation of being one of the most troublesome systems with 4x and 5x on the OSSC. The refresh rate is also higher than normal at about 60.1Hz. The PS1 on the other hand seems to be pretty standard at about 59.8Hz which is why I chose that one. I could do my consolized MVS which has a toggle switch for 59.18Hz and 59.94Hz?

A shame that the deinterlacing isn't faster. I'll probably stick with my Framemeister for 480i sources :)


You might try just feeding a test pattern.

A Corio2 is fully programmable, so you recreate virtually any signal with it.

That's probably the easiest way to do it.

I think a DVDO iscan HD+ can also feed a test pattern to the OSSC with an adjustable frame rate, but it's less programmable.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:37 pm 


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I don’t have any of those items on hand. I was just thinking consoles to use as inputs. Should have specified that :)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:42 pm 


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What do you have? I'd try everything I can.
If possible see what happens with the N64, Saturn, MD, also PS2 with some of the few non-interlaced true low res games.
In any case it's your best interest if you want to be sure with how much lag you play for every source+mode chain.
No LB tester nor reviews website will reveal all you want to know, only the OSSC's lag tester if you take the time.

@orange808 aren't the (ossc's) test patterns all 480 or 960? that won't tell him much, he has to do it with the real consoles.
Same for the DVDO even at 1080p they will even out the signal and that's not what he wants.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 5:51 pm 


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I have all that :)

I'll do some more testing when I have the time. First I'll extend the cables on the lag tester and see how the middle and top left box fares.

I did notice this on the lag tester wiki page:
Quote:
If display panel refresh rate matches input refresh rate, latency is typically uniform across all positions. If panel refresh rate is higher than input (e.g. 120Hz OLED TVs), bottom-right position has the lowest latency.


http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... ncy_tester

So I probably did it right already.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 8:06 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
What do you have? I'd try everything I can.
If possible see what happens with the N64, Saturn, MD, also PS2 with some of the few non-interlaced true low res games.
In any case it's your best interest if you want to be sure with how much lag you play for every source+mode chain.
No LB tester nor reviews website will reveal all you want to know, only the OSSC's lag tester if you take the time.

@orange808 aren't the (ossc's) test patterns all 480 or 960? that won't tell him much, he has to do it with the real consoles.
Same for the DVDO even at 1080p they will even out the signal and that's not what he wants.


Well, I can just turn on a test pattern output from the processor, feed the OSSC, and use the OSSC lag test as usual. I'm just generating the signal from a machine that isn't a game console. :) The key being that the video processor sits before the OSSC in the chain.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 9:44 pm 


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Extended the cables, and the wiki page is right. With a 12ms output like I measured above, the top left box measures 18.5ms, the middle one 15.3.

Unfortunately the OSSC doesn't like the MVS in 1080p and 1920x1200p so I can't use that for testing.

But still, I found that in 1600x1200 59.94Hz is 12ms, but 59.18Hz is between 27-35ms. So it may indeed be a tolerance-thing.

EDIT: 59.18Hz in Line_3X mode (720p) is also around 27-35ms :)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:12 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
Well, I can just turn on a test pattern output from the processor, feed the OSSC, and use the OSSC lag test as usual. I'm just generating the signal from a machine that isn't a game console. :) The key being that the video processor sits before the OSSC in the chain.

Put that on mine not trusting the processors can fully replicate a console's signal (based on nothing quite solid, just doubt :p)


@Konsolkongen: is there at least one mode that retains 12ms for the MVS ?
If you can find the time you should draw a complete chart with all the results for all your systems (yeah that's a chore but for the sake of documentation, you know :mrgreen: )
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:27 pm 


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Xyga wrote:
orange808 wrote:
Well, I can just turn on a test pattern output from the processor, feed the OSSC, and use the OSSC lag test as usual. I'm just generating the signal from a machine that isn't a game console. :) The key being that the video processor sits before the OSSC in the chain.

Put that on mine not trusting the processors can fully replicate a console's signal (based on nothing quite solid, just doubt :p)


Good point. Can't reproduce idiosyncrasies in the signal.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:46 pm 


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One thing's funny btw is that Kk's test seems to tell that the OLED refreshes the whole screen at once, I thought for some reason that they worked like most LCDs on that part.
Doesn't make a difference for input lag as far as we're concerned, but it still feels strange how the OSSC reads like a flipped around LB.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:47 pm 


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Yes, 1600x1200 appears to be 12ms every time. Which is what I'm using anyway because the ratio is more true to real 4:3 :)

I remembered that I had installed a DFO in my Mega Drive as well, so that one does 59.94Hz too, which does work in every mode.

Initially this meant 12ms in 5x_1080p too, but if I play around with the inputs on the TV or power cycle the console a few times it will jump up to 28ms. It's also worth noting that the OSSC sometimes sees the MDs sync as 59.94 and other times as 59.91Hz, but that doesn't appear to be the cause of the issues as 59.91 will sometimes give 12ms lag too. I'll check the refresh rate with my scope one of these days, because maybe the DFO configuration is just slightly off.

I've made a video that shows the behaviour. I would still guess that this is a tolerance issue, but please elaborate if you can :)

At first I have the Mega Drive running. Outputting 256x224 from the Mega CD menu (this looks horrible because the preset on the OSSC is made for 320x224, also the jailbars are far more pronounced in 256x224). The lag is 12ms.
At around the 1min mark I change the input on the TV to another HDMI channel, and then change it back again. Now the input lag rises to 29ms, but quickly loweres to 12ms again.
At 1:40 I turn the Mega Drive off and on again. Notice how the refresh rate changes from 59.94 to 59.91Hz. The lag is now around 28ms.
At 2:40 I change the input on the TV and then back again. The input lag is about 30ms for a little while and then suddenly drops to 12ms. I didn't capture this, but the refresh rate was still reported as 59.91Hz by the OSSC (of course).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8w_Q-R ... e=youtu.be

EDIT: Forgot to mention that this is all in PC mode. Don't really care for Game mode on the LG OLEDs as the colour gamut is locked to wide which looks bad :/

Quote:
If you can find the time you should draw a complete chart with all the results for all your systems (yeah that's a chore but for the sake of documentation, you know :mrgreen:


Replacing it with a C8 next week hopefully, so I probably won't have the time to do this for the C7 at least. Won't promise anything, sounds super boring :D And I would like to know for sure what causes this variation in lag in 1080p mode before I start taking down measurements from all my systems, I would like to get reliable results the first time without having to swap inputs and powering stuff off and on before undertaking such a task :)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:00 pm 


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I have no explanation, it's probably due to their design and where 1920 and 1080 sizes are involved something that tries to convert the rates internally is triggered whenever deemed necessary, while it doesn't care about the other ones since they're considered non-important/computer modes.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2018 11:05 pm 


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I think that sounds reasonable :) Not really an issue for me, I don't think I use them at all for the OSSC anyway. For all 320x224 I tend to use 720p as anything higher will cut off a few lines on both sides.

I'll definitely check this behaviour on the C8 as well, but I don't expect it to perform any different :)


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 7:29 pm 



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Tangentially related: I'm thinking of modding my OSSC to measure lag as well. I've read the guide on http://junkerhq.net/xrgb/index.php?titl ... ncy_tester, but it's a bit lacking for somebody who's not familiar with the components mentioned. Is anybody here that's done the mod have a photo of what exact gets desolderd and replaced (IE a photo of the PCB after the mod is complete)? There's a tiny little suface mounted component under the button; is that what I'm supposed to remove & replace? Yikes.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:22 pm 


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xeos wrote:
There's a tiny little suface mounted component under the button; is that what I'm supposed to remove & replace? Yikes.

yes


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 2:49 am 



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maxtherabbit wrote:
xeos wrote:
There's a tiny little surface mounted component under the button; is that what I'm supposed to remove & replace? Yikes.

yes

Thanks! A photo would be reassuring.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:01 pm 



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This shows where every component is on the bottom board: https://www.niksula.hut.fi/~mhiienka/ossc/diy-v1.5/pcb1.5-diy_BOT_LABELS.png


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 10:48 pm 



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So I think I have it all hooked up right but I think I'm getting a false trigger, only - it often reports 3ms or less on a screen that is probably more like 50ms. and it also often reports false trigger. As a sanity test I tried faking the probe onset by waving my hand in front of the sensor and got a reasonable answer of 500ms.

I'm using a 150k resistor and the suggested SFH 300 phototransistor.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2020 10:06 pm 



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Ok so I tested on my BenQ and Im getting 4.3ms in the right corner?
I know for a fact this monitor is at least 10ms, so whats going on here? Im getting the same time on all 3 positions.
Is this display lag testing the least (upper part of the display) laggy part of the display?


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2020 8:28 am 


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OSSC lag tester is confusing for most ppl and that won't change, it should definitely have a 'leo bordnar/time sleuth mode' if any doable so ppl can relate to what they read and maybe this optional lag tester will become popular (or, well, maybe the first reason almost no one uses it is that they won't until pre-made sensor kits get sold lol)

It basically tells you the lag at the top/beginning of the frame yes, which in most cases is the only actual lag (difference between a lagless display/CRT, and the one being tested)

When you say "I know for a fact this monitor is at least 10ms", if you mean you read it on some website like displylag or rtings, then as I've mentioned earlier in this thred most of these websites don't show you 'just the input lag' but the measurement from the middle of the display, or average which is bsically the same, which is lag + 1/2-a-frame (@60Hz)
When you read reviews on the internet it is very common that they reports such a figure, that's higher than the actual reality.
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 2:25 am 



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Xyga wrote:
OSSC lag tester is confusing for most ppl and that won't change, it should definitely have a 'leo bordnar/time sleuth mode' if any doable so ppl can relate to what they read and maybe this optional lag tester will become popular (or, well, maybe the first reason almost no one uses it is that they won't until pre-made sensor kits get sold lol)

It basically tells you the lag at the top/beginning of the frame yes, which in most cases is the only actual lag (difference between a lagless display/CRT, and the one being tested)

When you say "I know for a fact this monitor is at least 10ms", if you mean you read it on some website like displylag or rtings, then as I've mentioned earlier in this thred most of these websites don't show you 'just the input lag' but the measurement from the middle of the display, or average which is bsically the same, which is lag + 1/2-a-frame (@60Hz)
When you read reviews on the internet it is very common that they reports such a figure, that's higher than the actual reality.


Since you can set the region that the probe is displayed (top, bottom, middle) I don't think this point is valid. The big issue with the OSSC as a lag tester is that it measures an analog value (brightness) with a digital sensor (or 0 or 1, only). So there's no good way to know what part of the brightness transition curve you are measuring. If it's an LCD in particular, the probe onset takes a significant amount of time to reach max brightness, whereas the OSSC will trigger at some point along that transition that is determined by a combination of factors (resistor, photo diode, and the box that holds the photo-diode). Even worse, it can trigger on random fluctuation in the back light if the particular combination of factors led to a very low-threshold trigger point.


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2020 7:16 am 


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The OSSC doesn't read-report like the other testers do, so when it apparently doesn't add the frame 'drawn' time wherever not-the-top you place the sensor, it tells only the actual lag/delay, and in most cases there is only one measurement to report.
(logically. tho that way of reading is too counter-intuitive for what ppl expect, I won't say it enough)

I don't dismiss any possibilities but xeos hasn't shared anything about his monitor besides the brand, still 4.3ms would be a very common result expected for tons of monitors today, that's what you'll read from a serious website like pcmonitors.info or tftcentral.co.uk, while lesser ones would give something around 10+ms taken from the middle of the screen or an average.
This case smells like it, like he read somewhere in a review/chart that his monitor is 10+ms, and now testing himself he's surprised to read less, same as Konsolkongen here.
The same happens often-enough with ppl using a LB or any other lag tester by themselves, like "wat this is less than x or y review said", and it's hard to swallow that much more popular websites like Rtings or displaylag are, well, not technically 'wrong' but slightly misunderstanding the topic of lag/delay.

In regards to what you think about the brightness/sensor, honestly I don't think it makes a big difference. Maybe like with the other testers we can read at worst a couple ms difference between 0% and 50% brightness then another two between 50% and 100%.
Like response times in most cases the difference brightness makes for lag testing shouldn't be any significant at all.

Assuming however there aren't any misreads, that I agree with you can happen for various reasons.
Other lag testers freak out on some displays, so what to think about one that's partially DIY ?
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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:05 pm 



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Ok I think I get it, so long story short someone suddenly decided to use a new standard for display lag.
And yes, I've been using displaylag.com as my reference, and the reason they (and most sites) use average/midscreen lag is because that's where the most relevant things are happening during a game.

And there's also the number the manufacturers give, which more often than not is just grey-to-grey transition and not actual displaylag. So, once again, people are going to get even more confused than before, because everyone is using Timesleuth's lowest measurements now...


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 Post subject: Re: Measuring lag with the OSSC (LG OLEDs)
PostPosted: Tue Jan 07, 2020 10:28 pm 


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It's not that someone decided to do something new, the middle/center of the screen never represented lag/delay period, but lag + half-a-frame (better call it the center of the frame. sorry for the redundancies btw, that's just my style)
In any case what's part of the frame and the time it naturally takes to draw isn't lag/delay, the center is where we look the most indeed, but the time produced by the frame itself is not an unwanted technical flaw in the chain so it shouldn't be counted along.

Think about it, by the logic of taking the center or average as the reference for measuring then all CRTs lag 8.3ms (at 60Hz)
That's just silly.

Yes, most websites/reviews who for years have been saying the middle or average measurement is lag/delay have had it wrong, and still haven't realized*. Honestly for about a year I was confused too, then realized counting a portion of the frame as lag is absurd (yet maybe 2~3 people told me before I had the 'ah!' moment *facepalm*)
Those like Fudoh, marqs, several other various lag tester users, and a minority (unfortunately) of serious reviews websites who only care to mention the lowest figure are right to do so because this is the only one that matters and deserves to be called lag or delay when talking about displays.

Nothing about display specs and performances is becoming more confusing only just today BTW, most people were always confused, and a lot of myths about flat panels still stick today. What can we do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



* and it's probably not even half a handful of ppl who had vague notions on the matter, who misunderstood and the day they learned about lag testers, got their own, got excited and spread the misunderstanding by advertising as much as they could, then with the power of the internet marked ppl with that idea and it stuck, still does.
tho the world of displays still carries a number of myths that won't die, here it's not as bad a case as the question of lag in emulation where all hopes that a majority of people one day come to understand the topic better are probably lost, but still one of the persistent myths.
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