Best *MATRIX* switcher for (4K?) HDMI, looping in and out

[Dochartaigh]

I've been loosely following the topic on the best HDMI switcher for OSSC and 4K devices as I'm quasi-looking for a HDMI switch...but I believe those are regular switchees only - NOT matrix switchers, as in all those regular ones do is switch a single input to an output - no ability to loop devices in and out of the switch and route 2-3 HDMI devices together (which then goes to your flatscreen TV) like I do with analog signals on my Extron Crosspoint Matrix switchers. Example is: 480p signal from my OG Xbox (RGBS) > OSSC 480p2x linedouble to 960p HDMI Output > Extron DSC 301 HD (960p to 1080p) Output > TCL flatscreen HDMI TV.

Are there any good, affordable, matrix switchers I should be looking at? Something akin to how I use my Extron Crosspoints to loop a signal through multiple transcoders/converters/upscalers/downscalers to throw over to a display - all without having to switch in or out a single wire, WITH savable presets? I think Extron, Kramer, or Crestron devices can do things like this, but there's so many models, many are still VERY expensive, and I've simply never used one of these before so my knowledge is lacking.

My display is a TCL 49" 4K flatscreen (49S517).

Possible HDMI scalers I want to use:
• OSSC
• Framemeister XRGB-mini
• Extron DSC 301 HD
• TVOne Corio2 scalers (C2-2200A's)
• TVOne Corio2 Multiviewer (4x in, 1x 1080p picture out, 2x2 grid)
• DVDO VP50 at some point in time...

Possible HDMI consoles I will/might use:
• Xbox 360 (HDMI out, but I'll be using VGA on this as well)
• Maybe PS3 (which I own but literally never played)
• Maybe Xbox One X (usually in my living room on 65")
+++ the ability to get a RGBS signal from the Crosspoint into the HDMI matrix switcher to begin with



Top contender seems to be something like the Extron DXP 88 HDMI:



Last DXP 88 went for $275 on eBay - with many seemingly going for double to quadruple+ that (especially the newer 4K version), and that $275 is still more than I really want to pay for this experiment (especially considering my Crosspoint 32x32 was $42,000 in 2005...and I bought it for $130 shipped in 2018 lol)...




Anybody have suggestions of some other choices I can start to look into more? There's several other Extron lines as well, ones with 4K too. I know Crestron makes some, and I expect Kramer as well. Totally fine with a brand I've never heard of out of China or whatnot as long as the video quality is still good. I think I definitely need a 8x8 minimum (have to diagram out everything still...more is better but those don't exist - affordable at least).

I think the 4K matrix switchers are going to be out of my price range for the foreseeable future (did see a 8x4 4K go for cheap on eBay recently but that's probably rare and I need more outputs), but I have to say I would REALLY like to future proof this setup as I fully expect a 4K upscaler similar to the OSSC to be available in the coming year(s), and I'm already using a 4K TV right now... so if that's possible then that would be great. Any other brands/models I should look at?




Second part of this puzzle I'm struggling with is how to best get my analog RGBS signals into the HDMI matrix switcher to begin with since that has no analog inputs, only HDMI. Right now I can throw an (analog) RGBS signal from my Extron Crosspoint 3232, to the OSSC, Extron DSC 301 HD, or XRGB-mini (VIA SCART or RGBS BNC's), then from the output of any of those devices it's converted to HDMI - but if I'm going to accomplish what I want to, I think I need to be able to throw that analog signal straight into the HDMI matrix switcher to begin with (and again, that switch has no analog inputs at all), so I can run all the different chains I want to so I can start more easily testing out different combos to decide which I like the best for each of these consoles upscaling to my 4K TV.

I have a Kramer FC-49 (which is DVI input + Audio > HDMI output - which can take RGBS signal as an input from the Crosspoint by going BNC to VGA cable, then using a simple VGA to DVI dongle), but things like 4:4:4 color space and such are lost on me so I don't know how this works quality-wise. I also use inexpensive Tendak HDMI to VGA dongles on my TVOne Corio2 scalers and multiviewer, so maybe they're an option as well? (I would definitely be using those, as I am now, on the Corio2's with DVI-U -Universal- inputs and outputs – this is how I get HDMI into and out of the Corio2's currently).

[Ikaruga11]

(especially considering my Crosspoint 32x32 was $42,000 in 2005...and I bought it for $130 shipped in 2018 lol)...

The MSRP for the Extron CrossPoint 450 Plus 3232 HVA was actually $47,510.00 (before tax) . I finally managed to get one in excellent condition on eBay last week for $240 shipped. The most expensive Extron product though is the Extron CrossPoint 450 Plus 6464 HVA, with an MSRP of $112,762.00

https://ccsnewengland.com/wp-content/up ... Extron.pdf

[Dochartaigh]

The MSRP for the Extron CrossPoint 450 Plus 3232 HVA was actually $47,510.00 (before tax)

Depends on the year of the spreadsheet I guess Don't know who would be buying an analog switcher in 2015. Was 42K on the 2005ish one, and $43K MSRP on this one I saved:

[DirkSwizzler]

I also want to use a matrix at some point. But have shied away from any "all-in-one" solution because it seemed like it would be destined to fail on some axis.

I am very curious to see if you find one worth owning.

[nmalinoski]

480p signal from my OG Xbox (RGBS)

Are you using a hardware-modded Xbox? My understanding is that the Xbox only outputs 480i and 576i over RGBS, and that you specifically need an NTSC video region and YPbPr to do 480p+.

Possible HDMI scalers I want to use:
• OSSC
• Framemeister XRGB-mini
• Extron DSC 301 HD
• TVOne Corio2 scalers (C2-2200A's)
• TVOne Corio2 Multiviewer (4x in, 1x 1080p picture out, 2x2 grid)
• DVDO VP50 at some point in time...
...
+++ the ability to get a RGBS signal from the Crosspoint into the HDMI matrix switcher to begin with
...
Second part of this puzzle I'm struggling with is how to best get my analog RGBS signals into the HDMI matrix switcher to begin with since that has no analog inputs, only HDMI. Right now I can throw an (analog) RGBS signal from my Extron Crosspoint 3232, to the OSSC, Extron DSC 301 HD, or XRGB-mini (VIA SCART or RGBS BNC's), then from the output of any of those devices it's converted to HDMI - but if I'm going to accomplish what I want to, I think I need to be able to throw that analog signal straight into the HDMI matrix switcher to begin with (and again, that switch has no analog inputs at all), so I can run all the different chains I want to so I can start more easily testing out different combos to decide which I like the best for each of these consoles upscaling to my 4K TV.

I have a Kramer FC-49 (which is DVI input + Audio > HDMI output - which can take RGBS signal as an input from the Crosspoint by going BNC to VGA cable, then using a simple VGA to DVI dongle), but things like 4:4:4 color space and such are lost on me so I don't know how this works quality-wise. I also use inexpensive Tendak HDMI to VGA dongles on my TVOne Corio2 scalers and multiviewer, so maybe they're an option as well? (I would definitely be using those, as I am now, on the Corio2's with DVI-U -Universal- inputs and outputs – this is how I get HDMI into and out of the Corio2's currently).

For my purposes, my inclination would be to route all of my analogue stuff through an OSSC and/or DSC 301 HD (which I may very well be doing in the near future). Personally, I'm going to want to bring everything up to 720p or 1080p (depending on whether I'm using a 1080p or 4K panel and preference for a 2x or 3x scale on a 4K panel) signal before it hits my receiver, which means digitizing everything with the OSSC first.

In addition to that, I think I'm going to need an HDMI audio injector somewhere in between the OSSC and my receiver to handle TOSLINK audio from my PS2 and Xbox, since the OSSC so far doesn't handle digital audio input.

If you're trying to compare different scaling solutions side-by-side or back-to-back, you could very well use an analogue CrossPoint as a distribution amp, routing a given input signal to multiple digitization/scaler chains, when in turn get routed to separate inputs on the HDMI matrix switcher, and then you can switch between them as needed.

As an example (and I've done this sort of thing with analogue sources on analogue CrossPoints), if you wanted to compare the output of the OSSC to that of the OSSC plus DSC 301 HD, you could put the OSSC on Input 1 on the HDMI matrix switcher, send that to Outputs 1 and 2, then route Output 2 to the DSC 301 HD, and route that to Input 2. Then, to do a back-to-back comparison, you can just flip Output 2 between Input 1 and Input 2 to compare the OSSC alone (Input 1) to the OSSC plus the DSC 301 HD (Input 2).

If you want to see how things look running through a Corio2 first, you can run an output from the source on the analogue CrossPoint to the Corio2, then run the output of that back into the analogue CrossPoint, then link that with yet another analogue output.

If you want to compare side-by-side between two displays, send Input 1 to Outputs 1 and 2, and then Input 2 to Output 3, and connect displays to Outputs 2 and 3.

If you want to compare those to your FC-49, route an output to it from the analogue CrossPoint, and then connect it to another input on the HDMI matrix.

I'm sorry, but this is going to get messy.

[Xer Xian]

I get it you still aren't happy with just a single rack's worth of fancy AV equipment huh

1080p hdmi matrices will sell for less than a hundred dollars in a few years when 4k is the new normal.. in the meanwhile, you might be be looking for Extron SMX units with a DVI-D I/O panel..

[Dochartaigh]

Are you using a hardware-modded Xbox? My understanding is that the Xbox only outputs 480i and 576i over RGBS, and that you specifically need an NTSC video region and YPbPr to do 480p+

It's my understanding (which I could be totally wrong about that the Xbox is actually RGsB at the motherboard level - then that's converted somewhere else to YPbPr which is the normal 480p+ output. When you do a BIOS mod, paired with the correct BIOS, it lets the Xbox output that RGsB native signal. I then pair that with a modded Frozen VGA cable whose chip, with bridging of a solder point I believe, changes that RGsB (or RGBHV it's normally setup to output) to RGBS - that's how mine is setup to export 480p over RGBS (and I still have to keep my other YPbPr OG Xbox around for House of the Dead 3 which only works in 480i which the modded Xbox can't output anymore).

There's other options for off-the-shelf cables as well (back in the day), but all those do is have YPbPr to RGBHV (usually) converters inside the cable (or the little box on the cable).

I think the RGsB to RGBS setup I have is the best way to go about it as it's simply putting the sync signal on a separate line. Those Frozen VGA cables have TOSLINK output on the cable too, FYI (saw you mentioned that) - but the guy doesn't make them anymore.


To your other points, I'm in the process of researching some more and mapping out everything which might take a while - but yes, like you said, I think this might be just as messy as my analog-only server rack

I get it you still aren't happy with just a single rack's worth of fancy AV equipment huh

1080p hdmi matrices will sell for less than a hundred dollars in a few years when 4k is the new normal.. in the meanwhile, you might be be looking for Extron SMX units with a DVI-D I/O panel..

Please, I gotta get them all lol! And yes, I'll have to get a second server rack - probably one of those smaller ones which can sit on a deck to fit all this stuff - biggest hurdle there is a bunch of these (FM, OSSC, and DSC 301 HD for starters) aren't standard rack mountable size so that's going to be a pain to integrate into the rack (I see velcro tape in my future lol).

To your point though, that's one of the questions I'm researching - about the difference between analog and digital signals, and the devices I want to use, and which signal type(s) each use. My TVOne's for example have DVD-I and DVD-D so I can run both analog and digital (like HDMI via a HDMI to DVD dongle). Other devices like DSC 301 HD only does digital/HDMI. OSSC only takes analog input I think (little bit confused about component/YPbPr which can be analog OR digital on some devices? Pretty sure the one we use is analog only though), and the XRGB-mini can do analog but also has HDMI inputs too (just don't know what kind of HDMI device people would be upscaling to 1080p with one of those...maybe the HDMI modded systems which only output 480p...which the XRGB-mini is pretty bad at upscaling? - just guessing here).

Then since I might get one of these in the future, I'm also looking at/researching the different DVDO models: VP50, VP50PRO, VP30 (with optional uber-hard-to-find deinterlacing card?), to see where one of these might fit into my setup (in particular 480i deinterlacing for those pesky 480i games which just like 480p on my flatscreen, I'm not happy with the results of 480i upscaling on my flatscreen either). -- Still in the EARLY stages of researching these but if anybody wants to kindly school me I'm definitely all ears!



For the Extron SMX you mentioned, I'm really digging the SMX System MultiMatrix which are actually cheaper than the DXP models I was looking at. On those I can have a DVI input board/I-O - think, not positive, there's a certain i/o card which is DVI digital (only), then one which is analog and/or digital (only?). Then there's also HDMI boards (including the same 8x8 size I was looking at with the DXP model), and stereo audio boards as well...but what I can't find out even after looking at the manual (but what I think they hint at in the manual when they talk about the different planes) - is if these have a built-in converter, or encoder, or HDMI audio embedder in them (which I doubt, but who knows...the XTP Crosspoint video I watched said that model digitizes all analog signals?). For example, if I have one of the DVI analog input boards, can I throw that to an HDMI output? It'll do that analog to digital conversion for me? If I use the DVI to carry RGBS (via a BNC breakout cable from my regular analog Crosspoint), can I then use the L/R stereo inputs on the SMX in conjunction with that signal and it'll embed that audio+video into HDMI like my Kramer FC-49 does?

Right now I'm trying to make a bunch of flow diagrams of how everything might be used and it's becoming hard to figure out things like this when it looks like I might have to constantly go from analog to digital (i.e. HDMI), so I'm lacking the knowledge to map everything out correctly...

[Dochartaigh]

So I ended picking up an Extron SMX 300 MultiMatrix Switcher with six slots which is populated like so:



Input Cards: 8x4 VGA (2-slot), 8x8 Stereo Audio (1-slot, for use with VGA), 8x8 HDMI 1.3 1080p (2-slot), 4x4 HDMI 1.3 1080p (1-slot)

If you're ONLY looking for 1080p HDMI there's smaller 4-slot (8x8 HDMI inputs/outputs) models on eBay where the guy will take $150 + ~$30 shipping best offer. These are cheaper than the Extron DXP which only did HDMI.

I went for the next size up 6-slot so I wouldn't have to run 3-4 individual RGBS cables to the OSSC, FrameMeister, Extron DSC 301 HD, etc. - with the additional VGA Card + Stereo Audio Card I can run ONE RGBS line from my larger all-analog 32x32 Extron Crosspoint to the SMX, then let the SMX split that VGA (technically running RGBS through that - which I'm hoping is OK, and can pass 240p signals through it as well like I do on my Crosspoints) out to the different scalers which only have analog inputs.

Please note one (IMO strange) thing with the SMX is you CAN NOT switch inputs to/from another card. I.e. the VGA card can only send a VGA signal to a VGA output on the SAME card, it can't cross over to another card (like the HDMI cards for example). I believe it does this because it's lacking the hardware to do that, such as not having a built-in analog to digital converter which you would need for converting VGA (analog), to HDMI (digital). I don't even think I'll be able to switch from the one 8x8 HDMI card to the other smaller 4x4 HDMI card (will test this). I might put in a bridge cable from the 8x to the 4x HDMI cards to quasi-merge those two together, but I'll figure that out once I finalize my diagram of how I want to run everything.

***EDIT*** the HDMI on the SMX does NOT play nice with all resolutions from the OSSC FYI - just in case somebody stumbles on this post they can be forewarned.