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 Post subject: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:52 pm 


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I see RGB bypass chips for the minis, but anything for the first one? It's RGB looks like composite.
This should be a priority in the mod community, god dammit! :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:14 pm 



Joined: 21 Aug 2016
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You could use the same boards if you want (probably), but the blur/smearing you are seeing has nothing to do with that AFAIK.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:27 pm 



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Check out this nice doc on the issue:
http://www.chrismcovell.com/gotRGB/snesblur.html


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:39 pm 



Joined: 11 Sep 2014
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Are you talking about the original SNES?

They put out excellent RGB with no mods needed. I always had my Super Famicom connect via RGB and later my American SNES.

If you find that RGB looks like composite video, it is likely an issue with the wrong cable choice. There were official SNES scart cables that were not wired for RGB. If you used them to connect a SNES via a Scart port, you got composite video or svideo.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 3:50 pm 


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The 2 chip SNES does not have a RGB bypass available. It is known for being more blurry than the 1CHIP and Mini. Many people consider the 1CHIP to be an official clone console, technically it is.
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 6:42 pm 


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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
The 2 chip SNES does not have a RGB bypass available.


Not correct. Borti has instructions on his github. Pretty sure Voultars board would work as well, with proper modification.
https://github.com/borti4938/SNES-AddOn ... B%20Bypass
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 7:23 pm 



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Mobiusstriptech wrote:
The 2 chip SNES does not have a RGB bypass available. It is known for being more blurry than the 1CHIP and Mini. Many people consider the 1CHIP to be an official clone console, technically it is.


Ah, you aren't talking about the original SNES.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:17 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
Mobiusstriptech wrote:
The 2 chip SNES does not have a RGB bypass available.


Not correct. Borti has instructions on his github. Pretty sure Voultars board would work as well, with proper modification.
https://github.com/borti4938/SNES-AddOn ... B%20Bypass


Again. 2 chip SNES doesn't have a bypass. Borti lists an untested potential bypass for 3 chip and the 1CHIP bypass.
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:18 pm 


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2-chip = 3-chip. They are one and the same. It only means the cpu and ppus are not integrated into one chip, in contrast to the 1-chip.

In other words, ANY SNES that is not a 1-chip is a 2/3-chip (=has separately one cpu and two ppus).

Edit: and they are tested for a few models, including shvc-cpu-01 which is the launch model, check the links.
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2018 8:31 pm 


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Harrumph wrote:
2-chip = 3-chip. They are one and the same. It only means the cpu and ppus are not integrated into one chip, in contrast to the 1-chip.

In other words, ANY SNES that is not a 1-chip is a 2/3-chip (=has separately one cpu and two ppus).

Edit: and they are tested for a few models, including shvc-cpu-01 which is the launch model, check the links.


Honestly never heard of anyone refer to a 2 chip as anything other than a 2 chip. I saw the models and recognized at least one as a PAL console so I incorrectly assumed that it must be a PAL thing. My apologies. First I have ever heard of a bypass for the non-1CHIP.
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:29 pm 



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IIRC borti's bypass method on 2/3 chip consoles will get rid of some noise on the video output but it will not increase sharpness at all, which is the OP's primary concern. As far as a mod for improving sharpness, there have been attempts, the first (that I know of) from this Japanese person:

http://vaot.mydns.jp/fc/sfc_sharp2.htm

As you can see the mod looks quite messy and complicated. The resulting image is a noticeable improvement in terms of sharpness but still not quite at the level of a 1CHIP. Borti also turned it into a PCB:

Image

He never publicly shared this design with his reasons being:

"I designed this PCB but never published it. I got weird side effects like massive jailbars on certain situations and a noisy composite video image."

Here's another attempt on a SNS-CPU-RGB-01 (the first one being a SHVC-CPU-01):

http://vaot.mydns.jp/fc/sfc_sharp.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:17 pm 


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unmaker wrote:
IIRC borti's bypass method on 2/3 chip consoles will get rid of some noise on the video output but it will not increase sharpness at all, which is the OP's primary concern.


Yes you are right, worth clarifying for the OP. Also, if he happens to have an APU model SNES, he should try Voultars fix as detailed by FBX here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43689&p=1312908&hilit=apu+interference+snes+voultar#p1312908
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:13 pm 


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Only RGB bypass available are for the 1CHIP consoles, the mini is a 1CHIP console.


Mobiusstriptech wrote:
The 2 chip SNES does not have a RGB bypass available. It is known for being more blurry than the 1CHIP and Mini. Many people consider the 1CHIP to be an official clone console, technically it is.


That claim was originally made by byuu quite a long time ago, he has since had more time to look into the SNES and basically came out and said that what he said about the 1CHIP SNES being a clone was wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:00 am 


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Really weird how no one has fixed this issue. There's like a zillion of these out there. Just begging to get a clear picture.

You know, not the same thing, but on the SNES topic....when I found out how the JP and EU Super Famicom and Super NES looked...I was like, "god damn, my SNES is ugly!". :lol:
One of the tip top systems, and it looks like....god, I don't know what I'd compare to to. Some kind of unfinished toy design. Like, it needs wheels or something.

Well, my favorite two systems are the SNES and the PS2, and the PS2 looks like a piece of computer equipment from the late 90s. And there is no good looking version of the PS2.
The SNES mini with RGB mod isn't bad looking, and has a phenomenal picture.

But I wouldn't mind a Japanese Super Famicom with some kind of RGB bypass. That original design is really good.
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 12:53 pm 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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With regards to the SNES, there is just nothing much that you can do.
The picture is generated inside the S-PPU2 and leaves the chip already blurred.
Any RGB bypass or other mod can only touch-up that signal a little.

There is that Japanese guy that went medieval on the signal, applying an overdrive to speed up pixel transitions.
It's a similar technique to what they use in LCD panels to improve response time.
His work is difficult to replicate though, and is likely to have unwanted side effects.

It's a pity that the S-PPU2 test mode didn't work out.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 2:19 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
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rama wrote:
With regards to the SNES, there is just nothing much that you can do.
The picture is generated inside the S-PPU2 and leaves the chip already blurred.
Any RGB bypass or other mod can only touch-up that signal a little.

So, basically, when it comes to the SNES, you need to choose between a blurred image (2-chip) and the occasional execution error (1-chip)?


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:07 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
rama wrote:
With regards to the SNES, there is just nothing much that you can do.
The picture is generated inside the S-PPU2 and leaves the chip already blurred.
Any RGB bypass or other mod can only touch-up that signal a little.

So, basically, when it comes to the SNES, you need to choose between a blurred image (2-chip) and the occasional execution error (1-chip)?

I have a fully stock launch model and it looks pretty good through the OSSC with HDRV cables and the "reverse-LPF" feature turned on (set to about 10)


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 3:58 pm 


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nmalinoski wrote:
rama wrote:
With regards to the SNES, there is just nothing much that you can do.
The picture is generated inside the S-PPU2 and leaves the chip already blurred.
Any RGB bypass or other mod can only touch-up that signal a little.

So, basically, when it comes to the SNES, you need to choose between a blurred image (2-chip) and the occasional execution error (1-chip)?


There are no issues with the 1CHIP aside from red lines running on Capcom games such as Demon's Crest, Aladdin and some minor issues with a few other games etc. Which are just what? Less than 10 games out of 1.5k?


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:12 pm 



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Lawfer wrote:
There are no issues with the 1CHIP aside from red lines running on Capcom games such as Demon's Crest, Aladdin and some minor issues with a few other games etc.

So, there are tons of issues? Thank you for clarifying.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:15 pm 


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the Goat wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
There are no issues with the 1CHIP aside from red lines running on Capcom games such as Demon's Crest, Aladdin and some minor issues with a few other games etc.

So, there are tons of issues?


No there aren't. Less than 10 games are affected out of 1.5k+ and they are quite minor, if the red line on Demon's Crest bothers you that's fine, but that's just removing 1 game and enjoying pretty much every other game without all the blurry mess. The second issue would also be that the 2CHIP SNES have no RGB Bypass Mod, unlike the 1CHIP, so all the improvements and fixes brought on by an RGB bypass would also not be available on the 2CHIP models.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:31 pm 



Joined: 20 Feb 2016
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What can be done for better video output is replacing PPU2 with an FPGA implementation with RGB/HDMI. It is unfortunate that VeriSNES is still closed source. It would make that possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:50 pm 


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rama wrote:
With regards to the SNES, there is just nothing much that you can do.
The picture is generated inside the S-PPU2 and leaves the chip already blurred.
Any RGB bypass or other mod can only touch-up that signal a little.

There is that Japanese guy that went medieval on the signal, applying an overdrive to speed up pixel transitions.
It's a similar technique to what they use in LCD panels to improve response time.
His work is difficult to replicate though, and is likely to have unwanted side effects.

It's a pity that the S-PPU2 test mode didn't work out.


do you know what about the chip is to blame?


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:12 pm 



Joined: 30 Aug 2016
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Lawfer wrote:
the Goat wrote:
Lawfer wrote:
There are no issues with the 1CHIP aside from red lines running on Capcom games such as Demon's Crest, Aladdin and some minor issues with a few other games etc.

So, there are tons of issues?


No there aren't. Less than 10 games are affected out of 1.5k+ and they are quite minor, if the red line on Demon's Crest bothers you that's fine, but that's just removing 1 game and enjoying pretty much every other game without all the blurry mess. The second issue would also be that the 2CHIP SNES have no RGB Bypass Mod, unlike the 1CHIP, so all the improvements and fixes brought on by an RGB bypass would also not be available on the 2CHIP models.

The 1 chip is either compatible with all games or it isn't. The fact is, it is not compatible with 100% of the games that work flawlessly on the 2 or 3 chip SNES machines.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:41 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
The second issue would also be that the 2CHIP SNES have no RGB Bypass Mod, unlike the 1CHIP, so all the improvements and fixes brought on by an RGB bypass would also not be available on the 2CHIP models.

Not correct, check my post further up.

paulb_nl wrote:
What can be done for better video output is replacing PPU2 with an FPGA implementation with RGB/HDMI. It is unfortunate that VeriSNES is still closed source. It would make that possible.

Is it not possible to implement using the open one from Mister?
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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:53 pm 


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the Goat wrote:
The 1 chip is either compatible with all games or it isn't. The fact is, it is not compatible with 100% of the games that work flawlessly on the 2 or 3 chip SNES machines.


In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really matter, the fact is out of 1.5k+ games, less than 10 games exhibit mininal issues with it, most people would take a crystal clear video out + RGB bypass capabilities over a blurrier "issue-free" Demon's Crest video output, you can clearly see this on ebay, where 1CHIP consoles sell for alot more and are in a much more demand than the 2CHIP models.


Harrumph wrote:
Not correct, check my post further up.


Are there any RGB bypass available for installation and modding, now? Doesn't seems like it, from the looks of it all the RGB bypass available online for sale and installation seem to be for the 1CHIP versions, what you linked is just a "proof of concept" from borti that gave him a jail bar side effect instead and as such it seems to be abondoned for now and other posters clearly said that an RGB bypass for the 2CHIP consoles will not be able to increase clarity and/or sharpness because the fuzziness/blurriness is already present from the original PPU output.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 8:47 pm 



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Harrumph wrote:

Is it not possible to implement using the open one from Mister?


Maybe but that core has been developed without an actual SNES so its accuracy is questionable.

Also everything from PPU 1&2 has been put together in the same file so it would have to be split first.


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 9:04 pm 



Joined: 08 Mar 2017
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maxtherabbit wrote:
I have a fully stock launch model and it looks pretty good through the OSSC with HDRV cables and the "reverse-LPF" feature turned on (set to about 10)

Yeah, post processing using all modern hardware is surely pretty effective.
"Reverse-LPF" is the same kind of filter as that Japanese mod, done digitally.
As long as it's not too strong, side effects should be minimal :)


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 Post subject: Re: Any RGB bypass for the version 1 of Super NES?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2018 11:26 pm 


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Lawfer wrote:
Are there any RGB bypass available for installation and modding, now? Doesn't seems like it, from the looks of it all the RGB bypass available online for sale and installation seem to be for the 1CHIP versions, what you linked is just a "proof of concept" from borti that gave him a jail bar side effect instead and as such it seems to be abondoned for now and other posters clearly said that an RGB bypass for the 2CHIP consoles will not be able to increase clarity and/or sharpness because the fuzziness/blurriness is already present from the original PPU output.


VGP sells Bortis bypass board. Also you’re confusing the bypass board (which I linked to) with his version of the japanese ”sharpness” board (which I did not link to). The bypass board does not have side effects.
Yes the bypass board cannot correct the PPU 2 bluriness, but it may still improve output from a 2-chip as some revisions suffer from bad output quality (and to be clear, I mean quality issues that are NOT due to the ppu blur, but related to such things as board routing, encoder chip versions, failing capacitors etc).

paulb_nl wrote:

Maybe but that core has been developed without an actual SNES so its accuracy is questionable.
Also everything from PPU 1&2 has been put together in the same file so it would have to be split first.

Yes, quite astounding he never had an actual SNES! I know he is being sent consoles now for reverse engineering, so hopefully it will be improved.
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