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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:06 pm 



Joined: 19 Jul 2017
Posts: 1204
Crossposting this info from the resolution transition thread.

Using Silent Hill PS1 running on a PS2, going PS2->[component]->OSSC->[HDMI]->DSC 301 HD->[HDMI]->Onkyo TX-NR555->[HDMI, active 18Gbps 20ft]->Samsung LN32B360, transitions between the 240p gameplay and 480i inventory menu take about 3 seconds to resync and get image again.

Adding the Portta active HDMI to VGA converter to use the DE-15 input on the DSC 301 HD, so PS2->[component]->OSSC->[HDMI]->Portta HDMI to VGA->[VGA]->DSC 301 HD->[HDMI]->Onkyo TX-NR555->[HDMI, active 18Gbps 20ft]->Samsung LN32B360, reduces the transition time to about 1 second.

I was not able to quickly test the composite input on the DSC 301 HD. (One of: it doesn't work on my unit, it doesn't like the composite output of my UltraHDMI-modded N64, or that composite output on my N64 is broken.)


So, unfortunately this thing won't be good for PS1/N64, because it isn't framebuffer-based like a presentation/seamless switcher; however, should be great for anything that runs at a consistent resolution/framerate.

Honestly, the few full-time 480i PS2 games I threw at it looked great. Both 480i passthrough and 480i line3x (using HDMI input on the DSC 301 HD) look progressive on my display; none of that vertical shimmering from the bob deinterlacing.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2019 7:48 pm 


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Quote:
One of: it doesn't work on my unit, it doesn't like the composite output of my UltraHDMI-modded N64, or that composite output on my N64 is broken.

there's good chance the composite input can't work with 240p input.

And thanks for testing the 240p/480i transition times on the Extron/OSSC combo.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:25 pm 


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Quote:
Dochartaigh, have you considered just getting a DVDO?

Your display should scale 1080p well. With a fast sampling timing tweak to the OSSC, you can line double 480i and 480p to the DVDO--and get good results.

That will allow you to easily take control of the output with limited trade offs to image quality and very little additional latency.


I just tried this on the iScan Duo (Scanlines to 100%, hybrid to 75% etc) and couldn't get the scanlines to look right/even, certainly not as good as in Dochartaigh's image.
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 9:39 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
Dochartaigh, have you considered just getting a DVDO?

Your display should scale 1080p well. With a fast sampling timing tweak to the OSSC, you can line double 480i and 480p to the DVDO--and get good results.

That will allow you to easily take control of the output with limited trade offs to image quality and very little additional latency.


I just tried this on the iScan Duo (Scanlines to 100%, hybrid to 75% etc) and couldn't get the scanlines to look right/even, certainly not as good as in Dochartaigh's image.


To what end? OP originally mentioned 480p

What 480p or 480i source (line doubled to SXGA using the OSSC and scaled to 1080p using the DVDO) would need scanlines?
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sat Jan 26, 2019 10:41 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
What 480p or 480i source (line doubled to SXGA using the OSSC and scaled to 1080p using the DVDO) would need scanlines?


I highly prefer super thin 480p scanlines when upscaling - makes it match the scanlines (again, very thin) I get on my Sony multiformat PVM and BVM CRT monitors when running 480p content. Also seems to smooth out some of the jagged edges the graphics these older consoles can have. Totally personal preference of course (just like scanlines on 240p content which I also feel makes the image look better and more realistic).


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:18 am 


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Exactly that, the look really reminded me of running 480p on a higher resolution CRT monitor. That's what the OSSCs 480p scanlines aim to do, but neither my TV or the Duo can scale them quite right. It's close and without the scanlines the image looks fine enough, but...

I might have to pick one of these up and have a play myself now, always room for another scaler in my setup :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:10 pm 


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I'll have to boot my old Win98 machine into DOS and plug in a old monitor and get some pics. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. And, maybe not.
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:40 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
I'll have to boot my old Win98 machine into DOS and plug in a old monitor and get some pics. Maybe I'm remembering it wrong. And, maybe not.


I don't think I ever noticed it on my Win98 SE machine (which I still have to play Doom, Quake, DOS games, etc.), but I never ran that (desktop at least) at 640x480 to even notice. But HD CRT's (which are usually 27"+), and Sony PVM/BVM's at 480p (I only have 4:3 20" ones, no 24" or 32"), when playing the 480p 6th gen consoles, they're definitely there and very tiny.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2019 10:23 pm 


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While the 480px2 scanlines are indeed technically correct and do reproduce what I see when I get too close to the screen on a real PC CRT, it's definitely a preference and screen size decision.

For instance, VGA with scanlines on a 100" screen just makes me feel claustrophobic. Particularly with games I have played for many hours, I feel like the screen is suffocating me.

Not bad looking on my smallest LCD, though.
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:23 am 


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So true to form I picked up a DSC 301 HD for a play. Unfortunately all my capture gear is boxed up ready for moving so I can only do iPhone shots, but I have some thoughts to post.

First of all I tried F-Zero using the 480p scanlines trick, I thought it looked fantastic on my cheapy 4K TV..

Imageextron-dsc-301-test1-Fzero by videogameperfection, on Flickr

F-Zero is anamorphic widescreen so it's a bit like if you were using one of those rare early widescreen CRT monitors (I think John Carmack had one), or at least what I'd imagine they looked like.

With 4:3 content losing all that from the top and sides seems to annoy me more, but there's no doubt it looks good and it's not like this little box can't scale to fill the screen too if you want, you just can't get perfect 31khz style scanlines if you do that:-

Imageextron-dsc-301-test1-Wario by videogameperfection, on Flickr

Again I only took this with an iPhone so you can't really see.

Since this is PAL Wario Ware forced into 480p it doesn't fill the screen normally anyway, but you see what I mean about how you can lose a lot of screen real estate chasing that perfect integer scale or whatever.

How about input lag? Well, I tested it with Leo's tester and it clocks in at exactly 16ms. Only the old ABT scalers can beat that and their scaling engine isn't nearly as good.

I did briefly test interlace too (in conjunction with the OSSC), this is the first device I've come across that handles every interlace mode the OSSC can throw at it. 4x bob deinterlace looked good but of course the flicker was still there. I didn't try the Extron's deinterlacer but I'll have to give that a go, I know Fudoh said it wasn't great.

Over all this is a bit of a hidden gem of a scaler, combine your OSSC with this if you have a fussy TV, or just want more flexible picture zoom/pan controls and you have quite a powerful combination. If the DSC 301 had a reasonable deinterlacer too it would really be something to get hyped about but even as it is, well worth considering if you can't afford or find an ABT scaler to go with your OSSC.
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 9:49 am 


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Quote:
combine your OSSC with this if you have a fussy TV

just wanted to add that the Extron/OSSC combo unfortunately doesn't like the Nintendo NES/SNES' output jitter. Don't get me wrong: the 301/OSSC is my "go-to" combo at this time, since I use a Super Nt for SNES games, but SNES/OSSC/301 won't work with most of the OSSC's output resolutions. (This said, I'm not sure if I tried the combo with an updated 301 FW version, so it this has changed and the NES/SNES are working fine by now, somebody should say so.)


Last edited by Fudoh on Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 10:02 am 


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Ah ok, I already have dejitter installed in my mini so I wouldn't have noticed this.
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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2019 12:25 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
First of all I tried F-Zero using the 480p scanlines trick, I thought it looked fantastic on my cheapy 4K TV..


By recommendation from Fudoh I picked up one of these too a few months ago and yeah it's fantastic, I am using the DSC 301 HD to upscale PS TV, PS3, Wii U and Xbox 360 from 720p to 1080p with fantastic results and I am using the OSSC + DSC 301 HD Combo to upscale PSP and Wii from 480p to 960p then from 960p to 1080p with pretty good results too, at this point the PS4 is the only HD console that I am not using with the DSC 301 HD, because it's the only console that runs most of it's games natively at 1080p (at least on PS4 Pro).


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 6:42 pm 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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Does anyone know if the Extron DSC HD HD can be a stand-in for the 301? It looks like to be a slightly newer model (it drops analog) but otherwise seems to be comparable when comparing manuals.

Someone is selling new HD HDs on eBay for only $60.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 7:01 pm 



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strygo wrote:
Does anyone know if the Extron DSC HD HD can be a stand-in for the 301? It looks like to be a slightly newer model (it drops analog) but otherwise seems to be comparable when comparing manuals.

Someone is selling new HD HDs on eBay for only $60.

For whatever reason, I can't find the source, but I've read either here on Shmups or on VGP that it's effectively the same hardware as the 301 HD, just without the analogue input.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:00 pm 


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It has the same scaling engine, but IIRC (please re-check if it's important to you), it does NOT have the framelock function of the 301. This means you freely set your output refresh rate, but it doesn't get auto-matched to the input refresh rate. This can cause a "rolling" input lag due to the underlying framerate conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:14 pm 



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Interesting. I take it that you can manually match them up?


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 10:59 pm 


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Yes, you can manually adjust it, but it will hardly ever be a perfect fit. It's less of an issue with any more modern source which outputs a straight 59.94Hz anyway, but with classic sources through an OSSC it can also require a readjust for every single active source.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:13 pm 



Joined: 18 Apr 2013
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Fudoh wrote:
Yes, you can manually adjust it, but it will hardly ever be a perfect fit. It's less of an issue with any more modern source which outputs a straight 59.94Hz anyway, but with classic sources through an OSSC it can also require a readjust for every single active source.
@fudoh, in general, how does it compare with the optoma hd3000?


Sent from my SM-N950F using Tapatalk


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:54 pm 


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Deinterlacing is better on the HD3000, scaling is close (with a slight advantage for the Extron), but the Extron is way easier to use and cheaper to buy.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 2:22 pm 



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Fudoh wrote:
Deinterlacing is better on the HD3000, scaling is close (with a slight advantage for the Extron), but the Extron is way easier to use and cheaper to buy.
Thank you as always!

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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Mar 06, 2019 7:47 pm 



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I picked up an Extron DSC 301 HD yesterday, I had read about them here and was surprised to find one locally. The menu seems to be locked out on mine - Executive Mode 1. I need the software to unlock as far as I can tell. Anyone know where I might find this?


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Thu Mar 07, 2019 7:28 pm 



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edit - deleted double post.


Last edited by Chris77 on Tue Mar 12, 2019 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 6:19 pm 



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I got one of these for a discount and it should arrive this week. I’m hoping it can help with the 480p scaling in my setup.

@Fudoh, have you happened to try the DSC HD 4K Plus A? I’m curious whether it can scale to 4K more cleanly than the average 4K set.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:01 pm 


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Quote:
have you happened to try the DSC HD 4K Plus A?

no, sorry, never seen a used one yet and not too keen on spending 3,000 EUR just to check it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:05 pm 



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I thought I would check. You seem to have tried everything. :D I couldn’t find a price. I didn’t know they were so expensive!


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:12 pm 



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strygo wrote:
I thought I would check. You seem to have tried everything. :D I couldn’t find a price. I didn’t know they were so expensive!

Pro/commercial AV gear is always expensive, at least until it gets obsoleted, at which point you can, for a time, pick it up cheap on eBay from recyclers that have gotten units from companies that have replaced them and decided to simply toss the old equipment.

Extron RGB CrossPoints used to cost thousands of dollars when analogue video was still in use; now that digital is king, a used CrossPoint can be had for less than $50 shipped.

The DSC 301 HD is new enough that it has HDMI, so there's still a little bit of a price premium to it; but it's been replaced by the 4K units, which are still super-expensive.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Sun Mar 10, 2019 8:32 pm 



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Location: Woodinville, WA
It’s always funny to see the price disparities on eBay. One seller selling one of these for $50 and another selling the same thing in similar condition for $800.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 2:52 am 



Joined: 05 Mar 2017
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Location: Woodinville, WA
My unit arrived today but unfortunately it is in the locked-out executive mode. Does anyone have the Data Viewer tool that can send commands to the device? Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Extron DSC 301 HD (RGB>HDMI+scaling)-Best settings for 4
PostPosted: Wed Mar 13, 2019 4:35 am 



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Location: Woodinville, WA
I was able to find the software here: https://extron-electronics-dataviewer.s ... /versions/

If anyone has the latest firmware (1.25), I would very much appreciate it!


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