Questions about upscalers / deinterlacers

[Classicgamer]

As I understand it from Fudoh's (extremely helpful) blog, the Xrgb mini and the Ossc are the two best gaming upscalers to run 15khz content on an HD digital flatscreen.

Are there other (hopefully less expensive) options for converting 480i games on the PS2 to 480p analog rgb for use on a crt montor? I know the PS2 can output 480p on some games with a code but the PS2 sucks as a 480p machine (for some games). So...

They sell these very cheap cga and ega to vga arcade converters on eBay for $15. Has anyone here tried one with a 480p crt monitor? I assume they would look bad on 1080p or 720p flatscreens as that 480p output would then get (poorly) scaled by the tv. I am wondering how they do for 480i to 480p on a crt when no actual resolution scaling is needed. It should be just a deinterlacing or frame doubling job.

There are also various Extron scalers for a little as $15 on eBay but I couldn't find any discussion on how they perform for gaming (good or bad). I am assuming they suck in some way as people here like Extron devices for other purposes but never discuss them for upscaling?

I found info for one Extron upscaler on Fudoh's site but I couldn't find that model on eBay, just a lot of other ones that are never discussed.

[Fudoh]

It's a bit hard to recommend a specific deinterlacer, since I don't really what you're looking for and what you need in terms of available input connections. Proper deinterlacing comes at the cost of a some lag. But still there a are lot of machines to choose from.

For those "cheap CGA/EGA to VGA converters", check this thread on how to get proper results from these:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52172

Cheapest entry into "good" deinterlacing is probably something along an Silicon Image iScan Pro ($50-70).

[Classicgamer]

It's a bit hard to recommend a specific deinterlacer, since I don't really what you're looking for and what you need in terms of available input connections. Proper deinterlacing comes at the cost of a some lag. But still there a are lot of machines to choose from.

For those "cheap CGA/EGA to VGA converters", check this thread on how to get proper results from these:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52172

Cheapest entry into "good" deinterlacing is probably something along an Silicon Image iScan Pro ($50-70).

I just need analog rgb 480i in, analog RGB 480p out. From there I'll either use my Ultracade UVC to downscale to 240p or 368p or just run it in 480p (for native 480p games).

I don't fully understand the difference between real deinterlacing vs what the OSSC does but I guess I would lean more towards the one with less lag.

I just need something that can do a better job of generating 480p than the PS2. Even on the few games that offer a progressive scan option, the results are mixed. It has this infuriating resolution switching mid game and a few, like Street Fighter Alpha 3 (on the anthology) that drop sync every 5 seconds...

I think it would be easier to ignore the PS2's 480p option (it's only a handful of games anyway) and run everything through an upscaler to get consistent 480p.

[Classicgamer]

It's a bit hard to recommend a specific deinterlacer, since I don't really what you're looking for and what you need in terms of available input connections. Proper deinterlacing comes at the cost of a some lag. But still there a are lot of machines to choose from.

For those "cheap CGA/EGA to VGA converters", check this thread on how to get proper results from these:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=52172

Cheapest entry into "good" deinterlacing is probably something along an Silicon Image iScan Pro ($50-70).

On the cheap arcade upscalers, I'm not sure the info I need is in that thread although I admit I haven't read all 50 pages word for word.

As I am not looking to do any resolution scaling and I am keep it CRT, I guess my needs are more specific.

I am going to buy one and do my own testing. For $15, if they work then it is a bonus, if not, it will go in the trash.

I'll check out the Silicon image device too.

480i... what were they thinking.... all those responsible for this gaming abomination should be put in prison for crimes against humanity... or something....

[nmalinoski]

I just need analog rgb 480i in, analog RGB 480p out. From there I'll either use my Ultracade UVC to downscale to 240p or 368p or just run it in 480p (for native 480p games).

Good luck. I'm not sure you'll find anything these days that has analogue output; everything's going to digital. You might be able to find some old, fourth-hand thing, like an XRGB-1 or -2, but I'm not sure of their efficacy, and I'm pretty sure you won't find anything new.

I don't fully understand the difference between real deinterlacing vs what the OSSC does but I guess I would lean more towards the one with less lag.

Bob deinterlacing, what the OSSC does, either doubles the lines in the interlaced frame or inserts black into the missing fields. This gives you 480p from 480i with effectively zero lag, but results in a noticeable vertical shimmering effect that not a lot of people would consider tolerable.

Then, what you would call "real" deinterlacing involves blending a given frame with the previous or next frame, resulting in an [ideally] combing-artifact-free progressive image; however, as you can probably tell, this involves buffering 1 to 2 frames and running a blending routine, which can add one or more frames of lag, depending on how expensive that particular deinterlacing routine is.

I just need something that can do a better job of generating 480p than the PS2. Even on the few games that offer a progressive scan option, the results are mixed. It has this infuriating resolution switching mid game and a few, like Street Fighter Alpha 3 (on the anthology) that drop sync every 5 seconds...

I'm not sure of its video quality, because I put mine away after finding out it doesn't understand 240p, but the Extron IN1508 presentation switcher will do deinterlacing and framerate conversion to output a consistent image at a resolution and framerate of your choice. That should both deinterlace 480i and avoid sync dropouts, but at the cost of a little bit of lag.

[Classicgamer]

I guess I prefer 2fps lag than a vertical shimmering effect.

I am still not clear on the difference between the two approaches. I mean, I can see how they use a different process to go from 480i to 480p but you still need to line double or frame double to go from 480i to 480p.

If any of the devices frame double by using black frame insertion, I don't think that could work very well for me. While you would be outputting a 31khz signal, it wouldn't solve any of the issues we are trying to avoid with 480i - i.e. Flickering and a loss of clarity from displaying 30 full frame per second instead of 60.

The only scenario where I see black frame insertion as viable is when people are trying to display 240p content on a vga crt PC monitor with a lower limit of 31khz. Outputting 120fps with half the frames black gives you what (kinda) looks 240p / 60hz but in 31khz.

With 480i to 480p, the main goal is to double the frame rate to avoid flicker and blurr. It is not about making it work on a certain monitor (I use a tri-sync CRT). So whatever I end up using, it has to line double or use some type of frame interpolation so I end up with 60 full frames per second.

[nmalinoski]

Well, bob deinterlacing simply doubles the previous line, which can be processed with nothing more than a line buffer and spit out almost instantaneously. Proper deinterlacing involves buffering two or more full frames, comparing the current frame to the previous frame, and running potentially expensive passes between them.

I don't think either approach uses black frame insertion.

[Fudoh]

The iScan is a good choice. It got component inputs instead of RGBs, but that's alright for your PS2 use.

This will work fine you any true 480i content. Your journey to make look those fake 480i titles (which are suppsed to be running in 240p) look great is a different story though. PS2 > iScan > UVC will be alright, but it won't look quite as good as real 240p.

[Classicgamer]

The iScan is a good choice. It got component inputs instead of RGBs, but that's alright for your PS2 use.

This will work fine you any true 480i content. Your journey to make look those fake 480i titles (which are suppsed to be running in 240p) look great is a different story though. PS2 > iScan > UVC will be alright, but it won't look quite as good as real 240p.

I need RGB for my arcade monitors. They have no component ports. Does the Iscan convert component to RGB for the output?

I have a JROK that can convert rgb to component but nothing that transcodes the other way.

I gave up trying to figure out how to make the PS2 display 240p titles well. Everything 240p and 368p looks 1000 times better through Groovymame than what you get from my UVC. I'm going to sell the UVC. Downscaling is not for me.

My needs for this are to convert the majority of PS2 titles which are "natively" 480i to 480p. No resolution scaling. I want progressive scan 100% of the time without any resolution switching mid game. I want to play the games with no progressive scan option without flicker or blurriness. And, one way or another, I need the output to be RGB.

Is there anything about the flavor of 480i the PS2 outputs that make one solution the more obvious choice for 480i - 480p conversion? I'm not sure if it is "real 480i" or not.

[Fudoh]

Does the Iscan convert component to RGB for the output?

yes, of course.

Is there anything about the flavor of 480i the PS2 outputs that make one solution the more obvious choice for 480i - 480p conversion?

deinterlacing can be good or bad, it evolved a lot over the years - but not neccessarily to the better (especially for any cheap converter). The iScan provides a very pleasing result. More expensive solutions are able to retain more detail, but compared to what you know so far, the iScan is already a big leap forward. Plus it's ultra easy to use - truly plug and play.

[RGB0b]

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but what about a deinterlacer for DVD's and watching TV/Movies? Interlaced lines kinda drive me crazy and while the Oppo players I've had did a good job, they're not perfect. I believe Oppo had one model (BDP-83?) that did excellent deinterlacing. For DVD's, should someone get that, or would a different player (PS3 in 480i?) and a Silicon Image iScan Pro be a good choice?

[nmalinoski]

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but what about a deinterlacer for DVD's and watching TV/Movies? Interlaced lines kinda drive me crazy and while the Oppo players I've had did a good job, they're not perfect. I believe Oppo had one model (BDP-83?) that did excellent deinterlacing. For DVD's, should someone get that, or would a different player (PS3 in 480i?) and a Silicon Image iScan Pro be a good choice?

iScan Pro is probably your best bet, if you can find one. I would expect most DVD players to perform their own deinterlacing.

[orange808]

http://madvr.com/

A media PC has latency, but who cares with video?

Also, you should be able to bypass deinterlacing entirely with most DVD's. AFAIK, the MPEG codec doesn't even support interlacing. Most disks are authored as native 480p.

[Fudoh]

Sorry if this is slightly off-topic, but what about a deinterlacer for DVD's and watching TV/Movies? Interlaced lines kinda drive me crazy and while the Oppo players I've had did a good job, they're not perfect. I believe Oppo had one model (BDP-83?) that did excellent deinterlacing. For DVD's, should someone get that, or would a different player (PS3 in 480i?) and a Silicon Image iScan Pro be a good choice?

The good Oppo players were based on DVDO/ABT solutions (very close to the ABT102 implementation on the VP20/30). Oppo even had a Blu-Ray player (the 101) that was equipped with a DVDO processor instead of their usual deinterlacing solution.

Earlier processors (like the iScan Pro) have a solid filme mode, but don't exactly shine for video based material.

Software deinterlacing can be good, but it's not this easy to configure and it's still hard to get a working solution for mixed mode content (film/video) and I won't even start on how hard (to impossible) it is to get a proper cadence on the output side of things.

[Fudoh]

AFAIK, the MPEG codec doesn't even support interlacing. Most disks are authored as native 480p.

yes, indeed. Most DVDs from major studios after 2002 had a soft telecine (meaning the MPEG stream itself is 480p24, but the content is flagged for an output with a soft 3:2 cadence). The problem is (was) that according the DVD specs the MPEG decoder isn't allowed to output anything but 480i, so a perfect deinterlacing solutions would simply reconstruct what's already available on the disc anyway.

Media players (Dune et al) could circumvent this limitation and output native 480p from a DVD (or DVD rip).

[Xyga]

Some of these old deinterlacers could produce pretty charming results indeed, I have fond memories.
At some point I've acquired more capable machines (VP30+ABT102 and VP50pro) and during the better days of the Full-HD era I have also seen good deinterlacing from some TVs (the venerable LG LD450 was comparable to ABT102 for the PS2, and the Sony W wasn't bad at all though more complicated to adjust to satisfaction depending on the games)
The VP30+ABT102 remained my main deinterlacer for playing on a monitor since I don't play on TVs anymore for convenience reasons.

These days I wonder if any 4K displays or modern processors on the market can do as well as all this old stuff.