CVBS capturing (VHS digitalization) - card advise needed

[RetroBVM]

Hi,
looking for advise on what pro card to buy for VHS (CVBS) digitization. The contenders are https://www.startech.com/eu/AV/Converte ... XHDCAP60L2, Epiphan and Magewell.

Any advise is welcome.

Sorry forgot to add the process chain:

Sony VCR pro Deck => TBC => Hardware Combfilter => analogue PC capture card

[FinalBaton]

Interesting question, I'll be following this.

I'm guessing that the deinterlacing method used by the driver/capture software or selected in post production is gonna also be an important factor.

[Fudoh]

there is no direct FBAS capture solution that can achieve the quality of what can do with a little external equipment.

Biggest no-go is using a live h.264 encoder that's not built for interlaced content. If you use a frame-based h264 encoder with interlaced material (in 4:2:0) you get motion ghosting, since the chroma information of two adjacent fields are smeared together.

Best way to capture (and this is no money question) is: external comb filter -> external conversion to digital -> digital capture in 4:4:4 -> and the rest in software. The capture card isn't really this important.

[RetroBVM]

Best way to capture (and this is no money question) is: external comb filter -> external conversion to digital -> digital capture in 4:4:4 -> and the rest in software. The capture card isn't really this important.

- external conversion to digital => what hardware would that be and could a PC addon card do the same?

Found some interesting article http://videopreservation.conservation-u ... index.html

[Fudoh]

- external conversion to digital => what hardware would that be and could a PC addon card do the same?

that depends on your comb filter's output. If you get a DVR deck that outputs to component, you can add a component to HDMI converter (not a scaler, just a A/D converter). Many capture cards will capture analogue component just as well, but you shouldn't limit your search to that. Keeping it strictly digital on the PC's end might be easier.

[Fudoh]

Found some interesting article http://videopreservation.conservation-u ... index.html

I don't see any interesting stuff there. It completely overcomplicates the matter while not even mentioning the quality problems you get with a sub par comb filter on a Blackmagic or Aja deck.

[RetroBVM]

Are the quality differences in the component to HDMI converter part of the chain or general in the external analogue to digital conversion of the video signal?
What to look for in a good comb filter?

[NJRoadfan]

For VHS capture, usually go with a capture card that does uncompressed 480i/576i 4:2:2 YUV streams. With that you can capture using a lossless codec like HuffYUV and do further processing/restoration and then export to your final output format. Believe it or not, folks tend to recommend older capture cards like the ATI All-in-Wonder or the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB (later models have aggressive AGC that screws up captures). Both have decent comb filters for composite content, but you can avoid that using a SVHS VCR with S-Video output (prosumer models with onboard line TBCs are preferred, not going to be cheap though). Recommended VCRs vary if you are in PAL or NTSC land.

All capture cards are going to require the use of an external frame sync/TBC though since they just love to drop frames with less than perfect video sources like VCRs.

[Fudoh]

Both have decent comb filters for composite content, but you can avoid that using a SVHS VCR with S-Video output (prosumer models with onboard line TBCs are preferred, not going to be cheap though). Recommended VCRs vary if you are in PAL or NTSC land.

that's very outdated information, especially since the same recommendations have been around for the past 15 years. Yes, they might have been comb filters than the bottom of the barrel, but you do can so much better...

[RetroBVM]

Both have decent comb filters for composite content, but you can avoid that using a SVHS VCR with S-Video output (prosumer models with onboard line TBCs are preferred, not going to be cheap though). Recommended VCRs vary if you are in PAL or NTSC land.

that's very outdated information, especially since the same recommendations have been around for the past 15 years. Yes, they might have been comb filters than the bottom of the barrel, but you do can so much better...

When I started researching this topic, I came upon http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum and they still have the same outdated info in there guides. My guess is nobody has done any research or testing on this subject there.

@Fudoh
It would be great, if you could add this topic to your webpage to spread the information, like you did with upscalers and scanlines

Bob from Retro RGB is going to do a video on VHS capture eventually, but it not gonna be anytime soon.

[NJRoadfan]

that's very outdated information, especially since the same recommendations have been around for the past 15 years. Yes, they might have been comb filters than the bottom of the barrel, but you do can so much better...

Thing is, there really hasn't been much focus or innovation in the realm of SD analog capture for over a decade. Adding composite and S-Video ports to a device is usually an afterthought. The circa 2005 TV Wonder 600 USB uses a TI TVP5150 ADC, which is the same chip that is found on the Epiphan DVI2PCIe card for its SD inputs, a much newer product. The composite input on the AVerMedia HD-DVR I have is equipped with a lousy comb filter and its a circa 2010 product! ATI put a lot of R&D effort into the Rage Theater 100/200 capture chips found on the later AIW cards, only to have been bought out by AMD, who promptly sent that division to the wood chipper.

I just avoid the whole comb filtering mess using S-Video for the entire input chain (VHS natively stores chroma and luma separate on-tape). Ironically, the comb filter on the composite inputs in my circa 2000 JVC SVHS deck is one of the best I've seen. In the end, the playback device is going to make a bigger difference in capture quality than the quality of the comb filter on the capture card anyway.

One glimmer of hope is the RetroTINK-2X. It appears to have a decent ADC, but it doesn't tolerate the unstable sync found on VCR output at all. My initial testing has been positive: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-c ... ative.html

When I have time I will eventually post VHS captures via the RetroTINK-2X to my YouTube channel.

[Fudoh]

It would be great, if you could add this topic to your webpage to spread the information, like you did with upscalers and scanlines

point is: the capture part is easy. The pre-processing (comb filtering etc) is harder. And I've discussed this up and down for YEARS regarding laserdisc playback on the AVS forums. You can read up on it there. Many threads available, maybe start with this one: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video ... ves-5.html

[RetroBVM]

It would be great, if you could add this topic to your webpage to spread the information, like you did with upscalers and scanlines

point is: the capture part is easy. The pre-processing (comb filtering etc) is harder. And I've discussed this up and down for YEARS regarding laserdisc playback on the AVS forums. You can read up on it there. Many threads available, maybe start with this one: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video ... ves-5.html

I will definitely do this.

Have you done any research into the doomsday project LD digitization and preservation?

[RetroBVM]

One glimmer of hope is the RetroTINK-2X. It appears to have a decent ADC, but it doesn't tolerate the unstable sync found on VCR output at all. My initial testing has been positive: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-c ... ative.html

When I have time I will eventually post VHS captures via the RetroTINK-2X to my YouTube channel.

Awesome, keep up the good work. I think the guys from the Doomsday project said that their research could be applied to VHS and CD digitization in the future to. So the VHS chain would get down to only two devices or one.

[NJRoadfan]

Awesome, keep up the good work. I think the guys from the Doomsday project said that their research could be applied to VHS and CD digitization in the future to. So the VHS chain would get down to only two devices or one.

I'd love for such a device and capture solution to exist. The high end SVHS decks aren't getting any younger..... or cheaper.

[FinalBaton]

point is: the capture part is easy. The pre-processing (comb filtering etc) is harder. And I've discussed this up and down for YEARS regarding laserdisc playback on the AVS forums. You can read up on it there. Many threads available, maybe start with this one: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video ... ves-5.html

I was just gonna ask about standalone comb filter recommendations, hahaha. I'll go read that thread instead

EDIT : Oh! I remember now : those pioneer DVRs have great comb filters!
I think I'll get one (might even get one that have it's drive busted - that'll be cheaper). Watching VHS looks good using my Sony SVO deck on a good CRT, but I tried to capture footage the other day and it looked horrible... looks like I need a comb filter badly. I'll also keep in mind the capture/post prod settings you mentionned above. Thanks!

[orange808]

After reading the linked thread, I have to disagree about the RCA DRC8335. I still have mine and it's really quite good.

I also have a Panasonic DMR-ES10 that looks nice.

There were many good ones.