Can you force 240p or 480p on the PS2?

[Classicgamer]

With a disc like that, am I better off outputting in 480p and using my ultracade UVC to downscale to 240p, or leaving it in 480i and using the Extron interface?

I never played the compilation. If really depends on whether the 480i output is filtered or not. I guess it is and if it is, then running 480p and converting to 240p externally will likely give you better results.

When you say "filtered", are you talking about the PS2 equivalent of HLSL-type effects like smoothing?

The output looks exactly the same as I remember from my Extron scan converter (one of the models without a non-interlaced mode). At least it does before it moves. The motion was far smoother on the Extron. Whatever the PS2 does, it ruins games like Street Fighter 2.

As far as I can tell, the 480i res is on the software. The PS2 is definately capable of 240p as a few games run in that res natively (like Art of Fighting anthology).

I need to experiment. The main purpose of buying a PS2 was for light gun games. If I could make Time Crisis 3 run in 480p (or even 240p) like the arcade and still have the light gun work, that would be a win.

The Guncon 2 is 480p compatible so as long as I plug in the gun after any conversion, there is a chance it might work...

[Fudoh]

That was what I read anyway. Who knows what was really on their minds at the time...

yes, that's right, except the telecine (with 3:2 pulldown) is required to show film based material in 60Hz, while European countries use a 2:2 pulldown with an integrated speed up of 4% (from 24 to 25fps). Means smoother pans for us

Is there such a thing as a deintelacer that is not a line doubler (or upscaler) and that can convert 480i 60hz into anything except 480p 30hz? I don't understand how that could be possible as 480p 60hz is twice the frequency and twice the lines per frame. Do they frame double if they can't line double (like modern frame interpolation)?

every hardware deinterlacer does this. What have you got around ? An OSSC ? It does simple Bob deinterlacing, still you get 480p60 from any 480i60 source. Wanna try it in software ? Load up a 480i60 clip in VLC (use a proper video clip, like sports), set Deinterlacing to YADIF for 30fps or YADIFx2 for 60fps.

Would a deinterlacer be of any help for PS2 480i? I.e. For games that output 480i natively that do not have a 480p option

I don't understand the question. Help to what end ?

[Classicgamer]

Help to make 480i content look better.

I guess I am only asking about devices capable of deinterlacing in realtime for gaming.

[Fudoh]

it's always a trade-off between speed and quality. Top of the list are the Framemeister with really good 480i deinterlacing (at 1.5 frames) and some DVDOs with gamemode2 (2 frames).

Raw bob is not what I would call good deinterlacing, it's more a means to an end.

[Classicgamer]

it's always a trade-off between speed and quality. Top of the list are the Framemeister with really good 480i deinterlacing (at 1.5 frames) and some DVDOs with gamemode2 (2 frames).

Raw bob is not what I would call good deinterlacing, it's more a means to an end.

I saw a Framemeister running at a friend's a while ago. He has a mini and a 3. They did a nice job on 240p content although I never expected to buy one as I use a CRT for everything 480p and below.

I'll see if I can borrow one to test if it can be made to work with a Guncon2 on a PS2. I would like to be able to play Time Crisis 3 in 480p.

[Kez]

A framemeister wouldn't work with a light gun even on a CRT.

[nmalinoski]

it's always a trade-off between speed and quality. Top of the list are the Framemeister with really good 480i deinterlacing (at 1.5 frames) and some DVDOs with gamemode2 (2 frames).

Raw bob is not what I would call good deinterlacing, it's more a means to an end.

I saw a Framemeister running at a friend's a while ago. He has a mini and a 3. They did a nice job on 240p content although I never expected to buy one as I use a CRT for everything 480p and below.

I'll see if I can borrow one to test if it can be made to work with a Guncon2 on a PS2. I would like to be able to play Time Crisis 3 in 480p.

In addition to what Kez said, the problem will be the lag added by the Framemeister. Light guns are very much timing-oriented, and rely on the effectively laglessness of CRT monitors to function. That said, it could theoretically work if you were able to feed a 15kHz sync signal to the light gun (based on how the original Xbox handles light guns) and adjust a timing offset, which would probably require the game to be modified.

One thing that gives me hope is that NES games compatible with the Zapper can be and have been modified to be playable on contemporary flat panels; but, as I understand it, the Zapper works differently to most every other light gun released since, so I assume that it will not be as easy to adapt light guns or light gun games made for other systems.

Perhaps someone can make a light gun calibration program, or add a light gun calibrator/lag tester to the 240p Test Suite, that can tell you what kind of lag you're dealing with in the form of a value that you can plug into a patching program (less desirable; effectively requires building a game image specific to your setup and a way to boot that image) or a GameShark/Code Breaker/Action Replay code (more desirable; wider compatibility without hardware or software mods) that would make the game a little more lenient with the timing.

[Classicgamer]

I did some testing and the Extron RGB interface 240p trick does not work on the PS2.

When you flick the switch, it does make the image look clearer with less flicker but there were no visible scanlines. Up close, it still looked very much like 480i.

I only tested Capcom classics and SF2 anthology. Whatever they did to the source material to make it 480i, the interface doesn't like it. With the digital sync processing switch turned off, the image flickers far worse than if I connect it to my arcade monitor directly. And it seems to convert the image to 240p / 30hz, or something weird that like that. I.e. Visible scanlines but 10x the flicker and text too blurry to read.

[Taiyaki]

I know this is an old thread, but it's forever been an issue that I feel some hardware developer should look into. Imagine releasing some video encoder or adapter to between the PS2 and TV to convert the signal to 240p for PS2 480i games. Would be a huge hit.

[Mikey]

There seems to be a solution:

https://www.ps2-home.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53

[bobrocks95]

There seems to be a solution:

https://www.ps2-home.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53

Like Thomago said in 2018, GSM compatibility is very low- it was last updated in 2016, so that hasn't changed either. Tons of games don't work at all, glitch out on FMVs, or cut off significant parts of the image in 480p because the back framebuffer is no longer scaled correctly as I recall. I spent months fiddling with PS2 GSM stuff when I first got a 480p plasma around 2016 and my conclusion was that it wasn't worth bothering with it. Your best option right now is to plug it into a Retrotink 5x Pro and use its motion adaptive deinterlacing and just use 480i for any game without native 480p support. Or a Framemeister, but I wouldn't recommend that as a new purchase to anyone these days.

I know this is an old thread, but it's forever been an issue that I feel some hardware developer should look into. Imagine releasing some video encoder or adapter to between the PS2 and TV to convert the signal to 240p for PS2 480i games. Would be a huge hit.

For native 480i games (the vast majority of the PS2 library), forcing them to 240p causes you to lose half the vertical resolution. Maybe half the horizontal res as well depending on the method used? It doesn't look very good. Nice of course for ported 240p games.

[orange808]

With 480i, I am often happy having the OSSC pass 480i through as 480p with alternating "blank scanlines" and bypassing deinterlacing (altogether). Might try that first.

[cfx]

With 480i, I am often happy having the OSSC pass 480i through as 480p with alternating "blank scanlines" and bypassing deinterlacing (altogether). Might try that first.

If you preferred the interlaced look of PS2 on a CRT over deinterlaced that's certainly an option. I can't stand interlacing, so was thrilled with the Retrotink 5X to finally have something with acceptable deinterlacing and that didn't introduce unacceptable lag.

There's one caveat to your suggestion though--this really shouldn't be done with an IPS monitor. Many, perhaps most, IPS monitors will show very significant to severe image retention as a side effect of the quickly alternating black lines. There's also a warning about this in the Retrotink 5X documentation.

(fixed typo)

[Bassa-Bassa]

You can't convert 480i into 240p and expect a good result if you didn't have originally a line-doubled picture, and with no added filters. And on PS2 there're very few games like that (and I mean even among the ports/games originally with low resolution graphics). Something like Mushi (tate) will always look bad, no matter what hardware you add. For those few exceptions, GSM/hex edit works. CVS2 (OP's example) will always look bad too as the backgrounds are high resolution and the sprites are upscaled and filtered without any integrity - you couldn't display the original Naomi/DC game at 240p either.

[cfx]

Absolutely. It was dark times for 2D games, and I just avoided buying anything like that on PS2.

The filtering was nothing beyond a bad choice, but was there ever any explanation why other than some pretty early games, almost nothing was 240p? My theory is that it was because of the (CRT) HDTVs and EDTVs of the era, which tended to not work well with 240P signals. I remember this specifically being true of Sony's own TVs.

[Bassa-Bassa]

A friend of mine bought (imported) like everything the release day and kept almost all unopened for this reason, lol. I think the only ports he unsealed (and played) on PS2 were the Arika games and the M2 Ages titles for being 240p and well made, indeed. It's quite an experience going these days to his place and finding stuff like Mushi and Ibara factory sealed - he just never was into selling games. As he's been lamenting this situation ever since those years, I've discussed with him a lot about why so few things were 240p in the PS2/DC era, and I have to agree with this theory of his that it was the easiest way to solve the overscan differences between arcade and home CRTs - these usually accommodate pretty badly to 240 effective lines (that's why home systems are 224) or even the wider arcade horizontal resolutions such as Capcom's hardware, so they just took the original picture whatever the resolution was natively and scaled it to something like 512x448 interlaced.

There's also the fact that 240p is kind of a hack and the RGB signal almost non-existent in Japan, so the moment the programmers got systems capable of hardware filters which could mitigate the scaling artifacts and interlace flickering, the question was over. It took actual fans to code the ports to get 240p. I'll add that 480i was also easier than 240p for flat sceens, which were becoming a thing by then. In a way, the odd event is that the DC or the PS2 got 240p modes - just check the 3DO.

As for why so few games got a 480p mode, he believes that it has to do with Sony's historical rebbutal to the VGA standard, which is an IBM thing after all. So sync on green 480p for Sony, which implied almost nobody could display it, so why bother with coding a 480p mode.

[Taiyaki]

There seems to be a solution:

https://www.ps2-home.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=53

So from the sound of it if one wants to convert 480i to 240p (and not 480p) one needs the older version called v0-23x.

With that version you set the image to 480i and enable the setting called "emulate field flipping", and this should result in the games running in 240p.

A guy on Reddit reports great results on 2D games such as Metal Slug:

https://www.reddit.com/r/crtgaming/comm ... _using_gs/

If this works this is pretty groundbreaking. Imagine playing KOFXI, SNK VS Capcom 2 etc in 240p (just to name a few).

[Taiyaki]

Here's a downsized version of the photo from the Reddit.

Looks really clean. I guess I have to try and buy a free mcboot card with GSM v0-23x installed to try this out.

[Bassa-Bassa]

If this works this is pretty groundbreaking. Imagine playing KOFXI, SNK VS Capcom 2 etc in 240p (just to name a few).

You can't convert 480i into 240p and expect a good result if you didn't have originally a line-doubled picture, and with no added filters. And on PS2 there're very few games like that (and I mean even among the ports/games originally with low resolution graphics). Something like Mushi (tate) will always look bad, no matter what hardware you add. For those few exceptions, GSM/hex edit works. CVS2 (OP's example) will always look bad too as the backgrounds are high resolution and the sprites are upscaled and filtered without any integrity - you couldn't display the original Naomi/DC game at 240p either.

The Metal Slug compilation basically is just one of those few.

[Taiyaki]

If this works this is pretty groundbreaking. Imagine playing KOFXI, SNK VS Capcom 2 etc in 240p (just to name a few).

You can't convert 480i into 240p and expect a good result if you didn't have originally a line-doubled picture, and with no added filters. And on PS2 there're very few games like that (and I mean even among the ports/games originally with low resolution graphics). Something like Mushi (tate) will always look bad, no matter what hardware you add. For those few exceptions, GSM/hex edit works. CVS2 (OP's example) will always look bad too as the backgrounds are high resolution and the sprites are upscaled and filtered without any integrity - you couldn't display the original Naomi/DC game at 240p either.

The Metal Slug compilation basically is just one of those few.

I see. So might be a problem with many 2D games then. But wouldn't most of the SNK and Capcom Arcade games come out nicely since they usually offered 480p/240p options on the boards and usually have filters as options in the settings?

I know KOFXI uses filters but you can disable them in the options (IIRC Display setting 6 or something like that). On the other hand I believe Samurai Shodown anthology has forced filters that can't be removed so I guess that one won't look good.

Maybe we need to build a list of 2D games that have no filters or the options to remove them, to get an idea of what games this GSM tweak can help improve.

[Taiyaki]

Just remembered a few others:

Filters:
KOF Orochi Saga US version (I think Japanese version doesn't have filters?)
Capcom VS SNK 2
Samurai Shodown Anthology

Filter free (or can be disabled):
KOF XI
KOF 98 Ultimate Match
KOF 2002 Unlimited Match
Marvel VS Capcom 2 (although PS2 port is not that great sadly)
Metal Slug Anthology
Neo Geo Battle Coliseum

Then I need to recheck these but I think they're filter free (I hope):
KOF 00/01
KOF 02/03

Need to check the Fatal Fury collections too I really can't remember at all if they had filters. Same for the Last Blade and Vampire (Darkstalkers) collections.

[Konsolkongen]

Here's a downsized version of the photo from the Reddit.

Looks really clean. I guess I have to try and buy a free mcboot card with GSM v0-23x installed to try this out.

I've only tried the standalone MS4 disc with GSM. At first glance it looks perfect, but there is annoying shimmerlines on the horisontal axis. Maybe the Anthology collection fares better?

I'm probably just overly picky, and while it does sound nice that the Mushi and Ibara can be forced to 240p they look like garbage as the graphics doesn't line up properly, making it a smeary mess. It might be a little bit better than the normal 480i, but I find them unplayable either way :/

That said, I would absolutely give GSM a try for each game you want to play. The compatibility is low, but for those that work it looks much nicer than deinterlaced. Hokoto no Ken (arcsys) looks fantastic in 480p when you disable the filter in options. I also remember Resident Evil Outbreak 1 and 2 looking fine just to name a few

[Taiyaki]

Yeah it might present some glitches, I mean I haven't tried it but I can imagine that happening. I don't think the individual Japanese release for MS4 would be any worse from the anthology but I could be wrong.

I also just read about GBSC converters. Has anyone tried one?

Apparently these little boxes can force 240p on games. You can feed it scart, comes out as VGA or Component depending on the customized box.

Works for the Dreamcast too. Seems pretty promising. Theoretically one could even get all Atomiswave games forced into 240p with this since they've been ported to the Dreamcast recently.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcqskbCWPCs

[Bassa-Bassa]

I see. So might be a problem with many 2D games then. But wouldn't most of the SNK and Capcom Arcade games come out nicely since they usually offered 480p/240p options on the boards and usually have filters as options in the settings?

I know KOFXI uses filters but you can disable them in the options (IIRC Display setting 6 or something like that). On the other hand I believe Samurai Shodown anthology has forced filters that can't be removed so I guess that one won't look good.

Maybe we need to build a list of 2D games that have no filters or the options to remove them, to get an idea of what games this GSM tweak can help improve.

I'm afraid it's not only a matter of filters, but of scaling too - that's likely why MS4 had that shimmering. Indeed, depending on the filter type, the result can be good enough in 240p if the original graphics were simply line doubled. I'd check individually every game as suggested, SNK hired many different developers for the home ports, and standalone Metal Slugs are different to the Anthology games, coded in the West. KOF XI uses high resolution backgrounds, keep that in mind as well. I remember NG Battle Coliseum improving quite a bit in 240p. And Ibara was nothing at all like Mushi, at least by hex editing them.

Did they find a way to let the user set the configuration options for every Atomiswave-to-DC game, btw?

[Taiyaki]

I see. So might be a problem with many 2D games then. But wouldn't most of the SNK and Capcom Arcade games come out nicely since they usually offered 480p/240p options on the boards and usually have filters as options in the settings?

I know KOFXI uses filters but you can disable them in the options (IIRC Display setting 6 or something like that). On the other hand I believe Samurai Shodown anthology has forced filters that can't be removed so I guess that one won't look good.

Maybe we need to build a list of 2D games that have no filters or the options to remove them, to get an idea of what games this GSM tweak can help improve.

I'm afraid it's not only a matter of filters, but of scaling too - that's likely why MS4 had that shimmering. Indeed, depending on the filter type, the result can be good enough in 240p if the original graphics were simply line doubled. I'd check individually every game as suggested, SNK hired many different developers for the home ports, and standalone Metal Slugs are different to the Anthology games, coded in the West. KOF XI uses high resolution backgrounds, keep that in mind as well. I remember NG Battle Coliseum improving quite a bit in 240p. And Ibara was nothing at all like Mushi, at least by hex editing them.

Did they find a way to let the user set the configuration options for every Atomiswave-to-DC game, btw?

Thanks! Yes I forgot about KOFXI using higher res backgrounds, still I think the original Atomiswave had an option to run it in 240p so hopefully won't look bad assuming there was no extra tinkering with the port.

As for the Atomiswave to DC conversions I don't think they managed that on all games yet, but they still make progress last I checked.

[Bassa-Bassa]

Thanks for letting me know. Time to get interested in that project again, it seems.

AW KOF XI at 240p, I believe it's not possible without additional hardware. They had 480i and with high resolution backgrounds, there's not much point.

[Taiyaki]

Thanks for letting me know. Time to get interested in that project again, it seems.

AW KOF XI at 240p, I believe it's not possible without additional hardware. They had 480i and with high resolution backgrounds, there's not much point.

I mean to say, I had been told long time ago that the Atomiswave had an option to run at 240p, so most games were probably 240p friendly by design (At least in terms of UI and such, to render them nice and playable at 240p). Unfortunately the DC ports are only 480i and 480p and don't have a 240p option. We can only test to find out with a GBSC, but I'd have good expectations of those 2D games if running them through DC since the ports are pretty much the Atomiswave version.

[Konsolkongen]

You are probably thinking of the 15/31kHz switch on the Atomiswave. This switches between 480i and 480p. So that would be the same as the Dreamcast ports

http://nicossgames.free.fr/arcade/syste ... wecran.JPG

[Taiyaki]

You are probably thinking of the 15/31kHz switch on the Atomiswave. This switches between 480i and 480p. So that would be the same as the Dreamcast ports

http://nicossgames.free.fr/arcade/syste ... wecran.JPG

I see. Then I was misinformed. Thank you for the correction.