480i on PVM looks terrible, advice?

[magus90]

Hey Guys,

I have a PVM 20m2MDU and i am hoping to get a 20L5 soon.

480i is bothering my eyes really badly. I have gotten a little used to it, but it is still uncomfortable.

I was wondering, since i have an XRGB mini, would i be able to put say my PS2 into the XRGB mini and then output into the 20L5 at 480p. Thus getting get rid of the interlacing at the sacrfice of a tiny bit of lag?

JUst am not sure if

1- It would even work

2- What i would use to get the HDMI signal from the XRGB mini into the 20L5?

Thanks in advance for any advice

[Kez]

Yeah you can use a HDMI->Component transcoder to connect to a PVM relatively painlessly. HDMI->VGA would also work but you would need a sync combiner (e.g. Extron interface) in the chain.

Should work fine (except lightguns obviously).

[Lawfer]

480i is bothering my eyes really badly.

Really? Are you perhaps playing PAL games?

[Kez]

Some people are more sensitive to flicker than others.

I play PS2 on a BVM and I can definitely notice the flicker more than on a consumer set. It doesn't bother me but I can see why it would bother others.

[fernan1234]

It will work.

I also think that the 20inch P/BVMs at 700-900 TVL are in a kind of weird middle point of being too sharp and not sharp enough that results in 480i scanlines bobbing too much, which can be uncomfortable indeed when seen from a close distance.

You can either convert 480p HDMI to YUV/Component for the most simple route, or go HDMI -> VGA -> Extron sync combiner (RGB rxi) -> BNC (CSync or Sync-on-green) for (most likely) a higher quality picture.

For the YUV/Component option there are several low-price decent converters (I tried a bunch, in particular looking for one with upscaler because in the multisyinc monitor I use 1080i looks much better than 720p IMO). None of them are perfect because you're converting to a different color space for RGB-encoded games. Really bad ones will give you off colors, ringing artifacts, and other issues. The Porta converter was decent with a sharp picture, but the color saturation and white point were too distorted to my eyes. I settled for this one, even though the colors end up less saturated and black detail is crushed (may be able to partially compensate on the monitor side): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BB ... UTF8&psc=1

For RGB, which is what I ended up using, you will need an HDMI-to-VGA converter/dongle. The Porta or the Tendak ones are cheap and work well, virtually undistinguishable in most (maybe all?) cases from an expensive HDFury 2/3.

Alternatively, you could avoid all this by getting a smaller monitor and/or a monitor with less TVL for 480i stuff. 480i will look less flickery in such monitors.

[orange808]

If you really want to get crazy, you could try to force 480p from your consoles and use an Extron scan converter to get 480i. That would give you control over the interlacing process. Of course, you're going to trade loss of detail for less flicker.

[magus90]

Thanks for the replies.

Okay so it is at least possible. The 480i on my 600 TVL monitor is looking better now that i am getting used to it and also sitting another foot away or so. Hopefully when i get the 20L5 i will just get used to it and i won't have to mess with any extra steps.

But if i do, you are basically saying while HDMI to Component will work, HDMI to VGA will be better?

[magus90]

It will work.

I also think that the 20inch P/BVMs at 700-900 TVL are in a kind of weird middle point of being too sharp and not sharp enough that results in 480i scanlines bobbing too much, which can be uncomfortable indeed when seen from a close distance.

You can either convert 480p HDMI to YUV/Component for the most simple route, or go HDMI -> VGA -> Extron sync combiner (RGB rxi) -> BNC (CSync or Sync-on-green) for (most likely) a higher quality picture.

For the YUV/Component option there are several low-price decent converters (I tried a bunch, in particular looking for one with upscaler because in the multisyinc monitor I use 1080i looks much better than 720p IMO). None of them are perfect because you're converting to a different color space for RGB-encoded games. Really bad ones will give you off colors, ringing artifacts, and other issues. The Porta converter was decent with a sharp picture, but the color saturation and white point were too distorted to my eyes. I settled for this one, even though the colors end up less saturated and black detail is crushed (may be able to partially compensate on the monitor side): https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07BB ... UTF8&psc=1

For RGB, which is what I ended up using, you will need an HDMI-to-VGA converter/dongle. The Porta or the Tendak ones are cheap and work well, virtually undistinguishable in most (maybe all?) cases from an expensive HDFury 2/3.

Alternatively, you could avoid all this by getting a smaller monitor and/or a monitor with less TVL for 480i stuff. 480i will look less flickery in such monitors.

Ideally i woud like to stick with component, it just is easier and less things to purchase. Are there are any pricey options for transcoders that work very well? Like would the HDfury give an excellent experience? I also need to make sure that whatever i use, plays nice with the XRGB mini which will be outputting in 480p via HDMI.

[Lawfer]

Some people are more sensitive to flicker than others.

I play PS2 on a BVM and I can definitely notice the flicker more than on a consumer set.

PAL games or NTSC games?

[FinalBaton]

I personally find 480i way more tolerable on a crt with a lower TVL spec (say : 400) than on a high TVL PVM or BVM (600, 800 etc)

[fernan1234]

In my experience the YUV output of the HDFury 3 is terrible, it only seems good for RGB. You're better off with a cheaper Component converter.

Edit: and price is not everything. I tried Component converter that was over $100 and it was vastly outdone by the ~$30 ones.

[Kez]

PAL games or NTSC games?

NTSC

[BazookaBen]

Magus90, you can try adjusting V-HOLD in the service menu and see if it improves 480i a little. It's probably already at its best value, but it's worth a shot.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and for you 20L5, you don't need an XRGB, just GS Mode Selector installed on your memory card. You can force 480p on a lot of games, and on the games you can't, you can force 960i, which should be able to be displayed by your PVM.

[Classicgamer]

I find that 480i looks worse with sources that are not optimized for it. E.g. Windows looks horrible at 480i on my arcade monitor but, PS2 games that are natively 480i look good.

Where possible, I prefer to force content to display in 240p for sprite based games and 480p for 3d.

I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea to make any games run in 480i. Luckily it was just one console generation although it's annoying because it was one of the best for vintage gaming.

[Lawfer]

PAL games or NTSC games?

NTSC

The higher the refresh rate the less the flickering, I can agree that at 50Hz (576i PAL) it's annoying, the luminance/brightness/lighting just isn't stable, but at 60Hz wether it be NTSC or PAL60 it's pretty damn stable.

I find that 480i looks worse with sources that are not optimized for it. E.g. Windows looks horrible at 480i on my arcade monitor but, PS2 games that are natively 480i look good.

They are not "natively" 480i, they are really 480p, but their 480p capabilities have been locked/removed, almost all Xbox games can do 480p (with the exception of 2 games), the same exact games that on PS2 are limited to 480i.

I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea to make any games run in 480i. Luckily it was just one console generation although it's annoying because it was one of the best for vintage gaming.

Indeed.

[BazookaBen]

I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea to make any games run in 480i. Luckily it was just one console generation although it's annoying because it was one of the best for vintage gaming.

Because TV's were 480i and they were making high-resolution 3D games. All the consoles had 480p support for the 1% of people at the time who had an HDTV or the 0.1% who wanted to play on a computer monitor.

[fernan1234]

I'm not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea to make any games run in 480i. Luckily it was just one console generation although it's annoying because it was one of the best for vintage gaming.

Because TV's were 480i and they were making high-resolution 3D games. All the consoles had 480p support for the 1% of people at the time who had an HDTV or the 0.1% who wanted to play on a computer monitor.

EDTVs were actually not that uncommon around that time. All the mid-range Sony Trinitrons that I remember seeing during the PS2/XBOX/Wii years were flat and had component inputs. I'm guessing that was the case in Japan too, probably even more.

That said, I think that with the right monitor/TV 480i can actually look better than 480p for that generation of games because the interlace flicker provides a sort of anti-aliasing that makes 3D graphics both sharper and less jaggy.

[Ed Oscuro]

All the mid-range Sony Trinitrons that I remember seeing during the PS2/XBOX/Wii years were flat and had component inputs.

I don't think Ben is exaggerating the numbers of people who had the right TVs. Remember that Goldeneye on the N64 had some really obscure stretch settings for use with widescreen TVs and monitors - it was an option but hardly anybody could take advantage - and I know from experience that component inputs were a thing on flat TVs before anybody had a use for 480p outside of computer graphics. My family's old 1997 Mitsubishi rear projection TV had component - and I'm sure it only offered 480i inputs.

For me, "mid-range Trinitron" means something like the 27fs120, which is a Wega. It is a flat tube and has component inputs - but its only special feature is a 16:9 letterbox squeeze mode for DVDs. No 480p. From my experience most flat tubes were like this - 16:9 or 4:3 didn't seem to matter much; I'd run the model number of sets found in the wild and they'd turn out to be 480i sets.

I expect that many XBRs and large sets may still survive in homes through sheer inertia, as they are heavy to move. You'd have to luck into the right Craigslist listing to find one though.

As far as 480i and aliasing goes, "it depends" is the cloest I can come to agreeing. As a matter of fact and theory, interlaced rendering increases aliasing, rather than reducing it. This is especially evident on PS2 launch games, and the solutions put extra demands on the hardware and software. Here's an article that goes into some details. Of course many games look wonderful with small details; aliasing is no issue with the right source material.

[fernan1234]

@Ed Oscuro
That's pretty interesting. I guess anti-aliasing is not the right term I should use. I honestly don't really remember what PS2 games looked like on my old consumer CRT back then (I just remember thinking the graphics looked awesome to me). My only frame of comparison now are BVMs with high TV line counts, and on those I feel that the same console/game outputting 480p looks somehow both softer/less colorful and edges show more "stair stepping" than when outputting 480i, which makes me default to the latter when given the choice. I get a similar impression between 720p vs 1080i, much preferring the latter, though I guess this one would make more sense.

[magus90]

It will work.

You can either convert 480p HDMI to YUV/Component for the most simple route, or go HDMI -> VGA -> Extron sync combiner (RGB rxi) -> BNC (CSync or Sync-on-green) for (most likely) a higher quality picture.

For RGB, which is what I ended up using, you will need an HDMI-to-VGA converter/dongle. The Porta or the Tendak ones are cheap and work well, virtually undistinguishable in most (maybe all?) cases from an expensive HDFury 2/3.

.

Okay, so i was originally going to go the component route, but after going back and forth i think going HDMI-VGA-Extron-PVM is my best bet.

Is there any specific extron i should be looking for? I was looking into something like this. Just want to be sure there are not better units than others.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Extron-RGB-190 ... :rk:2:pf:1

[MidOrFeed2015]

before the ossc, on my pvm I would just use a bc ps3 to force all ps2 games to 480p. For GC, same thing using swiss. I could not stand the 480i shakiness