HDMI solutions for original Xbox

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nmalinoski
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HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by nmalinoski »

At this point, we're all familiar with the Pound cable for the original Xbox, and we know that it really isn't greatI was researching the possibility of an internal HDMI mod; specifically how one might be able to tap the digital inputs on the AVIP/Conexant chip, and I came across a few neat things.

First, a user on ogxbox.com, N64 freak, a few months back released a small run of external HDMI dongles, which are effectively external YPbPr to HDMI converters with an Xbox AV lead on one end and HDMI and TOSLINK ports on the other. Two versions were produced: One that provides stereo over HDMI and one that provides 5.1 over HDMI (both provide 5.1 via TOSLINK) (This is from his FS post, which has since been deleted). The board in this converter has also been adapted for a completely internal installation.

With both variants of this device, analogue YPbPr is tapped from the AV port and then redigitized. This makes sense for the external box, but I don't think it really makes sense for the internal mod, aside from ease of implementation and replacement of the AV port. I think I'd rather see a mod that taps the digital video signals going into the AVIP/Conexant chip, in the same way that the UltraHDMI and RGB mods from Tim Worthington and borti do.

What I haven't quite figured out is whether the Xbox's GPU feeds RGB or YCbCr to the AVIP, and whether normally-interlaced content is interlaced before or after it hits the AVIP.

In either case, I'm hoping someone is at least considering developing an UltraHDMI-like or a GCVideo-like internal mod that taps the input side of the AVIP with either a flex cable or QSB. Personally, I'd prefer to see an UltraHDMI-like solution that includes a scaler to accommodate seamless mode changes, and, assuming we're not lucky enough to always get progressive output from the GPU, at least a rudimentary deinterlacer.

Beyond transitions between games and the OS, I don't think there are many instances where mode changes would occur, but I'm aware of a few (below). The list is very short, so it might ultimately be acceptable to forego the scaler and just deal with sync dropouts.
  • Xbox boot sequence -- On unmodded console, plays in 480i, then OS switches to max supported resolution; I usually miss the first second or two while the OSSC kicks in and syncs up with my receiver and display, and then again when the OS loads.
  • Sega GT Online -- menus and movies at 720p, gameplay at 480p
  • 007: Agent Under Fire -- 480i for shooting stages, 480p for driving stages
  • Star Wars: Republic Commando -- Apparently doesn't support both widescreen at 480p at the same time; setting it to 480i and widescreen would benefit from a deinterlacer
Tapping controller inputs seems infeasible, since it's all USB; but this thing runs an OS, and it has USB, so I imagine the HDMI mod could be connected via USB and configured with an app, or perhaps a boot disc. Would also be nice if such an app included optional functionality to switch the video region to enable 480p/720p/1080i support on PAL consoles and functionality to reflash the BIOS to enable a 480p boot sequence, but neither would be critical, being provided by other apps.


Lastly, and what I think is pretty interesting, is that the Xbox's GPU generates a 15kHz clean composite sync signal, apparently regardless of the current video mode, and that this is provided on each of the controller ports specifically for light gun usage. I think this is what allows light guns to work with House of the Dead 3 running at 480p, assuming you have a compatible display.

That being the case, does anyone else think it's makes sense to develop a mod for other consoles with light gun games that reads whatever sync signal is coming out of the console and generates a 15kHz version for light guns? I think the application would be quite narrow; the only example I could think of is playing light gun games on a PS2 with output forced to 480p, and you'd probably still need either a CRT or an EDTV (or a compatible HDTV, which I'm not sure exists). I'm not sure how or if light gun games on the Dreamcast handled 480p, or if there are any high-res light gun games for the Saturn (or if it's even possible to force them to output at 480p).
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bobrocks95
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by bobrocks95 »

The impression I've always gotten, given how slowly Xbox emulation development continues to progress, is that the nVidia GPU is pretty much a black box that's really lacking in documentation.

If old forum posts are to be trusted, apparently even Xbox developers didn't know all that much about the system, because nVidia retained so many IP rights and wouldn't let Microsoft publish information.

So what it comes down to is that I'd imagine there's going to have to be a lot of reverse engineering to be able to tap those digital signal lines and get something usable out of them.

Maybe it's as easy as it is for any other console though, and we just haven't had anyone come along and put the work in?
PS1 Disc-Based Game ID BIOS patch for MemCard Pro and SD2PSX automatic VMC switching.
nmalinoski
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by nmalinoski »

I think it's one thing to understand how to control the GPU and another to format-shift the output. According to xboxdevwiki.net, the video encoders used in v1.0 through v1.5, Conexant and Focus parts, appear to be standard parts with documentation.

We already know which formats these chips take as input, and, being essentially bulk parts, I imagine it might only be a matter of finding an HDMI transmitter that also accepts those formats, linking the two with a flex cable, and figuring out how to mount it.
RetroBVM
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by RetroBVM »

Offtopic: an ananlogue RGB over SCART output in these resolutions (480p/720p/1080i) would be a great mod also. As it is now, only component YPbPr is supported in this resolutions.
nmalinoski
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by nmalinoski »

RetroBVM wrote:Offtopic: an ananlogue RGB over SCART output in these resolutions (480p/720p/1080i) would be a great mod also. As it is now, only component YPbPr is supported in this resolutions.
The docs for the Conexant chip suggest that it is possible to get RGB output in those resolutions. Section 1.3.21 Output Modes says that you cannot get VGA-style output unless the GPU is feeding it RGB (which it may not be); however, 1.3.42 HDTV Output Mode suggests that it can output analogue RGB or analogue YPbPr from either digital RGB or digital YPbPr (Would that be YCbCr?) inputs, suggesting this mode is capable of colorspace conversion.

Now, going by GameSX's documentation on the Xbox AV port, it looks like when pins 17 and 19 are bridged, 31kHz+ RGB is made available on the regular RGB lines, with separate horizontal and vertical syncs made available on pins 16 and 4 respectively; but, at the same time, the page has a nice, bold reminder that there is no VGA mode. That said, it might be possible to add a VGA mode in software that kicks in when pins 17 and 19 are bridged, and either outputs in that configuration, or puts clean composite sync on pin 24, or both.

If that is indeed possible, then the only other thing you'd need is a custom DE-15 cable or a SCART cable modified to not bridge pin 18. Alternatively, it may also be possible to simply remove the SD limitation in software for SCART cables, in which case you could get 31kHz+ RGB with clean composite sync over a stock SCART cable.


Also of note from the Conexant documentation:
1.3.35 Wide Screen Signaling (WSS)
The CX25870/871 supports the WSS methods outlined in the EIAJ CPR-1204 and ITU-R BT.1119 standards. Three serial interface registers control WSS data insertion. For 525 line NTSC systems, two bits enable the insertion of the WSS bit data on lines 20 and 283. The EWSSF1 register bit controls line 20 and EWSSF2 controls line 283. Twenty bits are used to insert the 14 bits of payload, plus six bits of CRC data. CRC data is not computed and must be inserted by the user.
Super cool, and this is what makes my Sony CRT switch to its widescreen enhanced mode when I set the Xbox (connected via component) to Widescreen mode. I don't think the OSSC currently supports this; hopefully support for this can be added, so the correct aspect ratio can be reported by the console, and the OSSC can pass that along to the display. Do the PS2, GameCube, and/or Dreamcast support this as well?
ldeveraux
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by ldeveraux »

I bought this last month, and it seems to work well. Haven't tested the lag, but I think it's acceptable. Looks better than component for sure.
www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JHZXNL2
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Lawfer
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by Lawfer »

Wasn't it known since years ago that you could get RGB from the Xbox with a resolution higher than 480i if you installed a custom firmware?
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by Ed Oscuro »

ldeveraux wrote:I bought this last month, and it seems to work well. Haven't tested the lag, but I think it's acceptable. Looks better than component for sure.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JHZXNL2
Isn't that just a scaler built-in to the cable bypassing your TV's scaler? It is nice that you can use a HDMI connection to feed resolutions up to 1080i right into your TV - but the original component cables can pass those resolutions too.
ldeveraux
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by ldeveraux »

Ed Oscuro wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:I bought this last month, and it seems to work well. Haven't tested the lag, but I think it's acceptable. Looks better than component for sure.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JHZXNL2
Isn't that just a scaler built-in to the cable bypassing your TV's scaler? It is nice that you can use a HDMI connection to feed resolutions up to 1080i right into your TV - but the original component cables can pass those resolutions too.
I have no clue how it works; I saw it on RetroRGB and bought it! Maybe my comparison is flawed, as I never had the "official" XBOX component cable, just a knockoff.
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citrus3000psi
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by citrus3000psi »

Christof and I plan on adapting our ps2 design to the Xbox once we finish the ps2.

Just throwing that out there.
nmalinoski
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by nmalinoski »

citrus3000psi wrote:Christof and I plan on adapting our ps2 design to the Xbox once we finish the ps2.

Just throwing that out there.
Very good news. I know it's still early, but can you say whether your design skews more towards GCVideo's line-doubling simplicity, or more towards the UltraHDMI's presentation scaler/works-with-everything abilities?
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citrus3000psi
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by citrus3000psi »

nmalinoski wrote: Very good news. I know it's still early, but can you say whether your design skews more towards GCVideo's line-doubling simplicity, or more towards the UltraHDMI's presentation scaler/works-with-everything abilities?
It will more full featured like ultrahdmi. The new PS2 design has onboard ram, unlike the DCHDMI project and gc-video projects.
RetroBVM
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by RetroBVM »

citrus3000psi wrote:Christof and I plan on adapting our ps2 design to the Xbox once we finish the ps2.

Just throwing that out there.
Big thumbs up for that, it has been to long for us SCART users :mrgreen:. Put me down for 2 pre-orders.
RetroBVM
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by RetroBVM »

@citrus3000psi could you explain how the mod works.
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Ed Oscuro
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by Ed Oscuro »

ldeveraux wrote:
Ed Oscuro wrote:
ldeveraux wrote:I bought this last month, and it seems to work well. Haven't tested the lag, but I think it's acceptable. Looks better than component for sure.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JHZXNL2
Isn't that just a scaler built-in to the cable bypassing your TV's scaler? It is nice that you can use a HDMI connection to feed resolutions up to 1080i right into your TV - but the original component cables can pass those resolutions too.
I have no clue how it works; I saw it on RetroRGB and bought it! Maybe my comparison is flawed, as I never had the "official" XBOX component cable, just a knockoff.
I use a Monster Cable (well, I do, once I can find it in my moving boxes) version, and it put out a good picture. I also have the official cables, but they're still in their bubble package.
tongshadow
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by tongshadow »

Review of the HDMI HYPERKIN cable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blwyI63sew0
SavagePencil
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by SavagePencil »

tongshadow wrote:Review of the HDMI HYPERKIN cable

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blwyI63sew0
I made it through six minutes and you still hadn’t started the review. That was awful.
rama
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by rama »

Hey,

is N64 freak registered here? I need to contact him, because he apparently managed to write control software for the MacroSilicon controller chip.
Having control over this chip means relatively easy, high quality, analog to HDMI transcoding. Boards with this chip commonly go for $10 or less ;)

Edit: Never mind, found him :)
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TrantaLocked_
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by TrantaLocked_ »

What is the best current, affordable solution to prevent crushed blacks over HDMI to an HDTV for the Xbox? I'm having this issue with my Portta component to HDMI converter. I ordered the Pound HD Link and OSSC to test different setups. The Chimeric Systems one but it's sold out right now but the creator has said it's essentially a better version of the Pound cable, not sure if the ASICs are the same. I'm expecting the OSSC to be the best solution because it allows lots of tinkering with settings. None of the basic converters that handle 480p let you do that, and the higher end stuff is very expensive.
Anyway, here is a list of devices I will or want to try. I will add minor updates over time and in the future add link(s) to other posts:

Converters:
-Updated: Portta Component to HDMI converter (non scaler version): Picture looks good but black crush on my Sharp HDTV. Could be compatibility issue with my TV. Desktop monitor accepts the signal but displays full 720x480 image in 3:2 ratio instead of 4:3, colors are correct and no black crush.

-Updated: OSSC 1.6, component to HDMI (I know the ADC latency is super low on this thing): The OSSC is great. The picture is super clean, nearing the quality of a native digital signal, and there are lots of options for tuning in different sync and filter settings for getting the picture as clean as possible. Most people can use stock sample settings but you might need to lower sample rate to 780 depending on your display. Some games, like Ninja Gaiden, will actually fill slightly more of the screen width (and that slightly should be about 1.363 ratio instead of normal 1.333, so a very small increase), and this is something you can take advantage of that most CRT screens couldn't. Just make sure games aren't actually running at a 1.5 ratio on your monitor, in which case things really are too wide. Also, some games might benefit from a higher pre-ADC gain like THPS4 which looks too dark (and was mastered brighter on the PS2/GC and darker on the Xbox) while most games look correct at 8 or 9 pre-ADC gain. I settled on a pre-ADC gain of 9 with a slightly lowered offset of 123 to achieve correct black levels along with correct peak brightness in Ninja Gaiden, but you may not need to lower offset for some games. I really recommend trying line2x mode with upsample2x, but if you're using another high quality upscaler with the OSSC you may benefit less from those options. With everything else tuned in, line2x+upsample2x looks virtually no more "blocky" than passthrough, and a heck of a lot sharper. There's a couple things I wish were easier with the OSSC but in the end I love it and really think it's worth the money. It gives you a sharp, clean image with near-zero input lag.

I am using a modded Xbox 360 component cable from a guy who does the mod on ebay, and what I do is I send the video to the OSSC, which sends HDMI to a DVI adapter at my DVI switch mounted to my desk that then goes to my DVI 1080p monitor (OSSC must be in DVI output mode), or I can send direct HDMI to my TV. Then for audio, I use an RCA to 3.5mm cable to the second 3.5mm port on my Bose computer speakers, which has two input ports which get mixed simultaneously! For my TV I would just connect the audio to the OSSC input instead and then send the digitized audio through HDMI with the video. I usually prefer just going with my monitor for the lower input lag.

-Updated: Pound HD Link: Picture looks good but black crush on my Sharp HDTV. Again, probably compatibility issue with Sharp TV due to EDID misread, may not affect all HDTVs. My desktop monitor doesn't accept the signal over DVI, not sure why.

-Chimeric Systems converter (when it's in stock, and only if the Pound doesn't work out and I want to re-sell the OSSC)
-Updated: Native digital HDMI mod that won't be available until probably next year. This is the end-game. (it's now available at https://makemhz.com/products/xboxhdmi?v ... 4682543181 , lookout for the citrus3000psi version too)

Upscalers:
-Marseille mClassic (pretty insane device that upscales and applies great AA in sub-1ms. I'm most excited for this to arrive)

-Updated: DSC 301 HD: Color space output can be configured. The 480->1080p scaling on this thing is very impressive and visibly exceeds the quality of my HDTV. Objects on screen look more present and crisp. Input lag feels slightly better on the DSC 301 too; at the least is no slower than the HDTV's upscaler. During this test I learned the way my HDTV detects color range is not always accurate, and it seems like resolution detection as VGA/PC type vs HDV type influences this automatic detection, but in the end the DSC 301 settings should be able to handle that. One minor issue is the upscaled output image can have inconsistent borders, like in the case of a 4:3 picture in 1080p output frame, I get a clean left border but blurred right border.
It is definitely possible to add 1440x1080 or any other resolution to the Extron PCS software. Grab the EDID from your TV, put it in an EDID editor like AW EDID editor or if you have it the Extron EDID manager 2.0, change the resolution using the auto timing calculator included in the editor, save as a new EDID, then add it to your PCS software's EDID folder and add it in PCS's EDID Minder. Then assign that EDID to your current input in EDID minder and the resolution will be added to your Custom 1 resolution. I did try using SIS commands over USB with Extron DataViewer but it didn't seem able to put the custom EDID into the slots, only the EDID detected by the current display. Much more on all of this software and other discussion in the main DSC 301 thread.
Component from an Xbox works fine into a VGA to BNC adapter to the DSC 301 (Either BNC to VGA with RCA adapters or RCA to VGA should work. I got a 10-pack of BNC to RCA adapters on ebay for $8 and they work great; no signal issues with this setup including my modded Xbox 360 component cable. The adapter impedance type shouldn't matter.). The DSC 301's analog input signal control (active lines, pixels, clock, etc) and picture positioning control are really good to have and the lag seems better than straight over component to my HDTV.
Current tests (may need to be re-done as my Time Sleuth was shipped with wrong/weird firmware) show that the DSC 301 tends to add between 13ms-17ms of lag when scaling the input. It did appear possible to do a near lag-less "passthrough" of the input signal, but it can be finicky getting it to work and I can't explain why. I thought it had something to do with frame lock but I couldn't figure out what steps were required to guarantee the near lag-less passthrough.

Displays:
-Updated: Sharp 1080p LC-39LE551U HDTV from 2014: Depending on the incoming resolution, usually assumes Limited color range input signal and therefore crushing most Full color range signals. Source compatibility and EDID detection play a large role in whether the TV shows correct color range.
Tested with a Time Sleuth at 1080p output measuring the top-most flashing bar, the Sharp has a rolling lag that starts at 22ms and steadily increases to 38ms over a ten second time span, then cycling back to 22ms. To my surprise, the lag difference between picture modes (dynamic, movie, game, sport, etc) or processing modes (noise reduction, color enhancement, active contrast, etc) is negligible. This means that whether the TV is set to game mode with all processing off, or set to movie mode with all processing on, the lag is still about 22ms-38ms with no more than 1ms variance between configurations. Setting input label didn't make a difference.
I'm still trying to figure out if it's something wrong with my Time Sleuth which was shipped with the wrong firmware or my TV, but current measurements show about a 40ms increase in lag when going from the Time Sleuth through the DSC 301 HD downscaled to 480p into the HDTV. I know the DSC 301 also adds about 13ms of lag at the least, so minus that and then the lag caused by the TV's internal upscaling is about 20ms-25ms. Measurements will be updated when necessary after I update the Time Sleuth to proper firmware.

-Updated: Samsung 1080p 2494SW monitor from 2009: Full color range interpreter like all monitors.
Also tested with a Time Sleuth at 1080p measuring the top-most flashing bar, the Samsung measures between 2ms and 3ms lag depending on monitor settings. Surprisingly, brightness and contrast have an effect on input lag. Lag is most stable at 2.6ms when brightness is set to maximum (100) and contrast set above about 70 out of 100, while setting either below these thresholds will cause lag to slightly increase and to roll between a minimum and maximum. The settings I use, 90 brightness and 75 contrast, result in a rolling lag cycle between 2.6ms and 3.0ms over a one second time span. However, decreasing brightness and contrast to very low values results in much larger lag increases. I wonder if this has to do with PWM dimming or an issue with the Time Sleuth and there isn't really a change in lag.

Other:
-Updated: Time Sleuth: My unit came with a firmware that only allowed 1080p output at all knob positions and doesn't show the words Time Sleuth at the top right of the screen. It also outputs DVI 59.99Hz according to my DSC 301 input information. While I will update the firmware, I do wonder if my tests showing rolling lag with the Sharp HDTV have anything to do with the wrong firmware on the Time Sleuth.

Update 2: So I was able to update the Time Sleuth firmware with an altera blaster and get other resolutions working. It is now known that some TVs have random input lag depending on how the device pairs with the TV, and this can change at every power cycle over a 16ms range for 60Hz displays. And the lag drift is caused by frame rate mismatch and frame buffering as a result (https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... -dont.html ) for displays that do not allow frame rates other than 59.94Hz. My TV is a bit slower on 480p/i signals, and lag decreases the higher the resolution up until 1080p. My monitor is less affected by 480p but does still show around a half frame more input lag at lower resolutions.

I plan on ultimately using the OSSC 1.6->mClassic. This should only be an extra 1 or 2ms extra input latency, but I might need to mess with OSSC color settings if the output is still for whatever reason being sent as Full range to the HDTV. I would be fine with the Pound HD Link->mClassic and reselling the OSSC if the Pound gives me the correct signal and decent latency. Welcome any advice on this subject.

--------------

2021 Update: Despite all of the equipment I had with the intention of using I now use a modded Xbox 360 component cable to the OSSC directly to my monitor in line2x+upsample2x mode (for Xbox games). While I appreciate the mClassic as a product, I'm not a fan of how the AA method makes things look a little pastel-like or cartoony. The upscaling is certainly decent and low lag but the AA and sharpening just make it not something for me, and it's very unfortunate Marseille continues to choose not to offer firmware updates.

I still have and like my DSC 301 HD but choose not to use it in my setup at this time. The DSC 301 HD has great upscaling quality to 1080p and a variety of tuning options that make it powerful for getting your upscale looking correct, but I can do essentially what I want to with the OSSC with lower lag. For my monitor I need to set a h. sample rate to 780 (most can keep at stock settings where the display auto formats the 858 picture), active area of 720x480 (to see the full width of games that use more than the 4:3 space), and tune a couple of the other timing settings like h. backporch and h. synclength for centeredness (sometimes you need to switch up and down another setting like sample rate to get the OSSC to kick in and actually show the change on screen, so it will take a bit of trial and error and manual measuring of the black sides of the picture on your display to get the picture centered correctly. But after measuring I can attest to a 780 sample rate with 720x480 active area showing the correct 1.363 ratio for games that use the full 720x480 area and 1.333 for other games). In line2x+upscample2x mode games look incredibly clean, if only just a tad blocky from the line doubling, which is improved by upscample2x. But I would gladly take the slight blockyness over the blurry 480p to 1080p upscaling in my monitor or TV. The DSC 301 is still very good looking, but the 960p from the OSSC upscaled by the monitor to 1080p has a sharp and clean look to it with less noise than the DSC 301 that I can easily get into and play for hours on with little complaints. The OSSC's low-noise conversion makes the Xbox's component output look like a native digital signal.

I was strongly considering a native HDMI mod, either by MakeMHz or citrus3000psi, but I have to say I really like the picture I'm getting with the component cable and OSSC and don't feel a huge need to install the HDMI mod. It would have been better to be able to get something like PS2s GSM and upscale directly at the source but as far as I know this isn't possible without another mod chip, so in the end you'd still just be getting a 720x480 output from the MakeMHz HDMI mod. It would certainly be a perfect picture but after looking at MVG's video, I am actually impressed by how good component looks compared to the native digital signal. They are basically the same except a slight clarity loss for component. I'll probably check this out in the future.
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xeos
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by xeos »

TrantaLocked_ wrote:What is the best current, affordable solution to prevent crushed blacks over HDMI to an HDTV for the Xbox? I'm having this issue with my Portta component to HDMI converter.
Fantastic work, thanks for checking all those devices! And I'm not saying that because you linked to my page on rolling lag.

I'd just like to add two more data points, both of which are zero lag transcoders (no upscaling):

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... -hdmi.html

https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... eview.html

First one has bad black crush on the og xbox, 2nd one doesn't. But both have a hugely annoying problem that after about 10-15 minutes of playtime they intermittently drop sync every few minutes, going black for a variable amount of time, between 1-3 seconds. If it weren't for that, I'd highly recommend the 2nd. It looks even better than my VP50, plus the VP50 adds around 60ms of lag to progressive sources so it's a really bad option for original xbox games (yes, more lag even than for interlaced content using the "fast game deinterlacer" ).

Have you encountered that sync problem in your testing?
bahamutfan64
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by bahamutfan64 »

You’ll be able to disable the bilinear filter through the MakeMHz HDMI board, resulting in a *much* sharper 480p image - even more so if you pair it with a Retrotink 5x in 1440p mode.
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xeos
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by xeos »

for systems from the early 3d era (of which the xbox is a prime example) I'm not sure the obsession with sharpness is wise! Those systems had zero anti-aliasing and relied on the blurriness of the CRT to smooth over some of those harsh edges. Of course you can smooth too much, but some blur is good.
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by Dochartaigh »

nmalinoski wrote: Lastly, and what I think is pretty interesting, is that the Xbox's GPU generates a 15kHz clean composite sync signal, apparently regardless of the current video mode, and that this is provided on each of the controller ports specifically for light gun usage. I think this is what allows light guns to work with House of the Dead 3 running at 480p, assuming you have a compatible display.

That being the case, does anyone else think it's makes sense to develop a mod for other consoles with light gun games that reads whatever sync signal is coming out of the console and generates a 15kHz version for light guns? I think the application would be quite narrow; the only example I could think of is playing light gun games on a PS2 with output forced to 480p, and you'd probably still need either a CRT or an EDTV (or a compatible HDTV, which I'm not sure exists).
While this topic has been bumped just wondering if anybody has gotten OG Xbox to work with a light gun at 480p. I've tried over a dozen CRT's (including computer monitors, PVM, BVM, HD consumer CRT's), 3x xbox's (think an early 1.1? 1.4 and 1.6), YPbPr through both versions of that official cable + RGBS (via Frozen VGA cable) output (on hard BIOS modded and soft modded consoles), and 3-4 light guns and it's never worked... yet still claim some people saying it does.

Bonus points if anybody has gotten PS2 to work on any ED(CRT)TV in 480p. I've also failed at that (and can't get past the 2x 'progressive' calibration in fact).
Guile
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by Guile »

xeos wrote:It looks even better than my VP50, plus the VP50 adds around 60ms of lag to progressive sources so it's a really bad option for original xbox games (yes, more lag even than for interlaced content using the "fast game deinterlacer" ).
Did you update your vp50 to the latest firmware? I got one recently and noticed the high lag on progressive sources but if you update it and disable cadence detection it lowers the lag a lot.

I think I have a variant of that first converter, I'll have to try it again. When I tested it I felt like it was laggy and the picture was pretty bad but maybe it's a different one.

The gbs-control is great for sync drops on odd signals. It helped with a dsc 301 losing sync from Wii, Dreamcast and Xbox.
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xeos
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by xeos »

Dochartaigh wrote:Did you update your vp50 to the latest firmware? I got one recently and noticed the high lag on progressive sources but if you update it and disable cadence detection it lowers the lag a lot.
I have not - I bought a usb 2 db9 serial adapter to do it, but the damn thing turns out to be noisy and I'd hate to brick the VP50 with a corrupted firmware. Is it known for sure the newer firmware fixes the issue, or is the improvement only been measured subjectively?
Dochartaigh wrote:I think I have a variant of that first converter, I'll have to try it again. When I tested it I felt like it was laggy and the picture was pretty bad but maybe it's a different one.
There are a lot of identical boxes with different internals (which is why I resorted to taking them apart). The way to tell the difference without a screwdriver is that some adapters also have a single tiny button on the side, which toggles modes/refresh rates. Those are horrid crap, with rolling lag and poor upscaling. Only the ultracheap transcoder-only adapters are any good, ironically.
Dochartaigh wrote:The gbs-control is great for sync drops on odd signals. It helped with a dsc 301 losing sync from Wii, Dreamcast and Xbox.
I'll have to try that - I have all the parts but haven't put it together yet. I am worried because the gbs without the mod has rolling lag, and I've only heard a couple non-authorities claim that it's fixed by gbs-control. Actually, I don't want to spread rumors, in fact I've never tested an real gbs, just a boxed version that I'm 99% sure uses the same chipset: https://alantechreview.blogspot.com/202 ... o-vga.html
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BuckoA51
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by BuckoA51 »

I have not - I bought a usb 2 db9 serial adapter to do it, but the damn thing turns out to be noisy and I'd hate to brick the VP50 with a corrupted firmware. Is it known for sure the newer firmware fixes the issue, or is the improvement only been measured subjectively?
I tested it with a lag tester when I was researching the DVDO Edge/iScan Duo high input lag on some sources bug thing, it's very low lag with cadence detection off, 6 to 8ms on 60hz stuff.
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Guile
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by Guile »

I used an FTDI usb serial adapter and the vp50 update went smoothly. I don't have a lag tester but I can confirm updating and turning off cadence detection very noticeably lowers lag on progressive sources.

I checked the component hdmi converter and it was identical. It worked well for Xbox but PS2 exhibited very annoying vertical bars which I have seen on several other devices, maybe it is using the same chip. I didn't play the Xbox very long so I didn't see it start to drop.

The gbs-c is well worth it. I also have that other boxed converter with the same chip and there's no comparison, the gbs-c is vastly improved. I am curious to see if it could be modified to also be a gbs-c as the boards are so similar. I couldn't find anyone to confirm it was possible so I didn't want to destroy it for nothing.
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by bahamutfan64 »

xeos wrote:for systems from the early 3d era (of which the xbox is a prime example) I'm not sure the obsession with sharpness is wise! Those systems had zero anti-aliasing and relied on the blurriness of the CRT to smooth over some of those harsh edges. Of course you can smooth too much, but some blur is good.
I have a 20L5 and a 2070SB if I want a more “authentic experience” for component/VGA sources. On an LCD screen though, I dislike any sort of blurriness honestly. Even for PC games, I’m not a fan of AA that smears the image ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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xeos
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by xeos »

Guile wrote: I checked the component hdmi converter and it was identical. It worked well for Xbox but PS2 exhibited very annoying vertical bars which I have seen on several other devices, maybe it is using the same chip. I didn't play the Xbox very long so I didn't see it start to drop.
I've seen horizontal bars on some converters, it's a sign of a poor analog gain control circuit in the converter. Never vertical bars though.
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Re: HDMI solutions for original Xbox

Post by shimian »

For those subscribed to this thread, is anyone using a GBS-C with their OG Xbox 1.6 over component?

I am reading mixed reports about 720p passthrough both working, and not working, so I am unsure which is accurate.

I am using component to my HD TV today, but I am sure there's some lag in there and would like to eliminate that with a GBS-C, as well as bring some other consoles online.

Thanks!
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