MiSTer FPGA board

The place for all discussion on gaming hardware
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

Add Axunwork's converter to the list

https://www.axunworks.com/RGB-to-Compos ... 41706.html

It has a cleaner output than the linuxbot one and more input options, the composite output still has a bit of noise but less than the latter. Problem is it takes forever to get one.

kitty666cats wrote:EDIT: I forgot, this last one linked here has a locked subcarrier - that means it’s going to have better composite output than those first two I linked, if there’s *anyone* here using composite from a MiSTER lol
That'd be cool to check out, but I wish I could find the RGBS model rather than this Y R-Y B-Y one. Have you ever used one of these? Works with 240p? I've found that the most professional stuff with the best quality output also tends to not work with 240p inputs (which are ironically the only video sources I'd be interested in mucking up via composite).
jd213
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:03 am
Location: Pennsylvania

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by jd213 »

A while back I saw someone on Twitter was making progress in getting direct Svideo/composite out of a MiSTer (I assume the analog module with something like the Monoprice VGA to SVideo/composite adapter). Forget where I saw it, I think it was retweeted by misterfpgabot or misteraddons.
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

jd213 wrote:A while back I saw someone on Twitter was making progress in getting direct Svideo/composite out of a MiSTer (I assume the analog module with something like the Monoprice VGA to SVideo/composite adapter). Forget where I saw it, I think it was retweeted by misterfpgabot or misteraddons.
Yeah that was misteraddons' upcoming IO board. I recall him saying something to the effect of not having too much expectations about the quality of the composite video especially though, so probably won't have "pro" level quality composite.

Something that would make me really happy is for a MiSTer composite output board that the NES core can take advantage of to output the original NES PPU NTSC (or PAL) video signal like the Analogue Nt Mini/Noir does (and technically could do S-Video too). I can't stand any NES RGB palette, so the composite output is literally the only reason why I keep using an Analogue console instead of the MiSTer NES core, in spite of the latter being more accurate. I'd love to be able to make the switch.
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by kitty666cats »

fernan1234 wrote:Add Axunwork's converter to the list

https://www.axunworks.com/RGB-to-Compos ... 41706.html

It has a cleaner output than the linuxbot one and more input options, the composite output still has a bit of noise but less than the latter. Problem is it takes forever to get one.

kitty666cats wrote:EDIT: I forgot, this last one linked here has a locked subcarrier - that means it’s going to have better composite output than those first two I linked, if there’s *anyone* here using composite from a MiSTER lol
That'd be cool to check out, but I wish I could find the RGBS model rather than this Y R-Y B-Y one. Have you ever used one of these? Works with 240p? I've found that the most professional stuff with the best quality output also tends to not work with 240p inputs (which are ironically the only video sources I'd be interested in mucking up via composite).
https://marc.info/?l=mythtv-users&m=109885072912662&w=2

^ From what I can gather in this person's post (specifically "They do line-lock to the original source; they do not change the timing."), should be fine with 240p.
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

kitty666cats wrote:
https://marc.info/?l=mythtv-users&m=109885072912662&w=2

^ From what I can gather in this person's post (specifically "They do line-lock to the original source; they do not change the timing."), should be fine with 240p.
That's an interesting discussion. Right after the part you quoted there's something even more worrisome though: " You are expected to provide the Harmonic unit with correctly timed video to begin with (that's why they say broadcast-quality in :). If you are not "reasonably close" it will not work at all."

Given that old consoles often had funky output signals, non-standardization in hobby RGB cables, and conversion from RGB to YPbPr (which would be required in this case) I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving something it likes.
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by kitty666cats »

fernan1234 wrote:
kitty666cats wrote:
https://marc.info/?l=mythtv-users&m=109885072912662&w=2

^ From what I can gather in this person's post (specifically "They do line-lock to the original source; they do not change the timing."), should be fine with 240p.
That's an interesting discussion. Right after the part you quoted there's something even more worrisome though: " You are expected to provide the Harmonic unit with correctly timed video to begin with (that's why they say broadcast-quality in :). If you are not "reasonably close" it will not work at all."

Given that old consoles often had funky output signals, non-standardization in hobby RGB cables, and conversion from RGB to YPbPr (which would be required in this case) I'd be surprised if it ends up receiving something it likes.
MiSTER I/O board outputs YPbPr, doesn’t it? Could also use a $12 HDMI to component
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

kitty666cats wrote:MiSTER I/O board outputs YPbPr, doesn’t it? Could also use a $12 HDMI to component
That's true, though I was thinking it would be nice to use it with some consoles with RGB output as well. Would still have to hope that the timings from the various MiSTer cores are close enough to "broadcast quality".
User avatar
kitty666cats
Posts: 1266
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2019 2:03 am
Location: Massachusetts, USA

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by kitty666cats »

I’ve got a good feeling it’d pass 240p just fine - I’m kinda interested in getting it now lol - stuff like trying it out on some sorta old composite monitor or VERY old TV w/ an RF modulator. 8) Just need a HDMI to component connected from a PC set to a custom res of 480i out. Fun way to watch some old 4:3 movies etc etc

My hunch is that a lot of the jargon Harmonic Research mentioned (quoted in the old thread linked above) is just to make the thing sound flashy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrominance_subcarrier <~~~ Read this link, in the end it's just going to provide a composite image with more accurate color adhering to NTSC standards/frequencies. I don't think there's and sort of funky processing going on that'd interlace a 240p source... TVs handle all our game old consoles fine, after all, and those have funky non-standard composite outputs with very slightly varying frequencies/resolutions/refresh rates (like SNES being slightly over 60Hz, etc)

If someone from here picks up the Harmonic, be sure to let us know how it works out! I will do so if *I* pick it up, hah
dreadnought
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 2:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by dreadnought »

I'm making a CRT guide for MiSTer's wiki: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... -CRT-Guide

I was thinking of including the composite/S-video adapters you mention here (eg Axunworks), but wanted to check if you guys have actually used them and can confirm as working?

Also, if you see anything worth adding or correcting there, let me know. It's still pretty much a WIP.
Guile
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:11 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by Guile »

I just assembled my MiSTer and it's amazing but I ran into a problem while testing the NES core on a crt. I have the analog IO board and I'm using component out to a 15khz tv. On NES games I was getting extremely brief dropouts once in a while maybe every 10 minutes or so. I didn't test other cores that long but it never happened once on the SNES or PSX cores so far.

I also had simultaneous output on hdmi and it did not drop the image through hdmi. Any suggestions for what might be causing this?
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

Guile wrote:I just assembled my MiSTer and it's amazing but I ran into a problem while testing the NES core on a crt. I have the analog IO board and I'm using component out to a 15khz tv. On NES games I was getting extremely brief dropouts once in a while maybe every 10 minutes or so. I didn't test other cores that long but it never happened once on the SNES or PSX cores so far.

I also had simultaneous output on hdmi and it did not drop the image through hdmi. Any suggestions for what might be causing this?

What's your vsync_adjust setting in your ini file? I'm not sure if that setting affects the analog output, but that'd be the first thing I check when it comes to video dropouts.

I would also suspect something mechanical, like the cables or adapters you're using to go into your CRT TV, being at fault. The NES timings are wonky and have the infamous jitter too, but usually 15khz TVs have no problem with that.
dreadnought
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 2:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by dreadnought »

fernan1234 wrote: What's your vsync_adjust setting in your ini file? I'm not sure if that setting affects the analog output
It doesn't.
User avatar
digitron
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:16 am
Location: California, USA

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by digitron »

Just stumbled across this, been away from the mister for a while but cool to see an open source s-video adapter:

https://github.com/MikeS11/MiSTerCRT/bl ... /README.md
dreadnought
Posts: 53
Joined: Sun May 21, 2017 2:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by dreadnought »

digitron wrote:Just stumbled across this, been away from the mister for a while but cool to see an open source s-video adapter:

https://github.com/MikeS11/MiSTerCRT/bl ... /README.md
This has been superseded by his work on custom cores which are able to output Composite or S-Video straight from I/O board or Direct Video. Still early days, but already extremely proimising...

https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?p=46617#p46617
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?t=4434

Regardless, I'd still like to know whether the adapters mentioned prebioulsy in this thread here actually have been tested with MiSTer.
User avatar
digitron
Posts: 174
Joined: Wed Apr 10, 2019 1:16 am
Location: California, USA

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by digitron »

dreadnought wrote:
digitron wrote:Just stumbled across this, been away from the mister for a while but cool to see an open source s-video adapter:

https://github.com/MikeS11/MiSTerCRT/bl ... /README.md
This has been superseded by his work on custom cores which are able to output Composite or S-Video straight from I/O board or Direct Video. Still early days, but already extremely proimising...

https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?p=46617#p46617
https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?t=4434

Regardless, I'd still like to know whether the adapters mentioned prebioulsy in this thread here actually have been tested with MiSTer.
Even better! Thanks for the info.
Guile
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jan 03, 2021 10:11 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by Guile »

fernan1234 wrote:
I would also suspect something mechanical, like the cables or adapters you're using to go into your CRT TV, being at fault. The NES timings are wonky and have the infamous jitter too, but usually 15khz TVs have no problem with that.
Thanks for the suggestion, I think I figured it out, it seems my component switch has problems with the MiSTer output, all of my other systems work. I tried it connected directly to the tv and there were no drops. I bypassed my auto switch with a manual switch just for the MiSTer and it seems to be working fine now. I also thought it could be my component distribution amp but I tried it directly into that and it had no problems.
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

dreadnought wrote:I'm making a CRT guide for MiSTer's wiki: https://github.com/MiSTer-devel/Main_Mi ... -CRT-Guide

I was thinking of including the composite/S-video adapters you mention here (eg Axunworks), but wanted to check if you guys have actually used them and can confirm as working?

Also, if you see anything worth adding or correcting there, let me know. It's still pretty much a WIP.

Forgot to reply to this. It does work, though annoyingly the D-Sub (VGA) port on the Axunworks converter doesn't work with the TTL sync from the MiSTer (is there a way to attenuate down to video level in settings?), so can't just use a simple VGA cable. However the RCA inputs do work with the TTL output from the MiSTer so an easy workaround is to use a VGA-to-BNC cable with BNC-to-RCA adapters.

Very puzzling why the maker expected a D-Sub input to be video level, which would only makes sense for the SCART input.
ZellSF
Posts: 2642
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:12 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by ZellSF »

ZellSF wrote:I had no problems setting it up. There's one thing that's confusing me though. The last line of the picture is really misaligned on my TV. Setting vscale_border=1 fixes it so it isn't a big deal, but weird since I thought the MiSTer would use a pretty standard video signal (for menus at least). Anyone knows what that might be?
Bumping this topic for not-news just to share my pain in fixing this. Once 5X crop mode was available then using vscale_border wasn't an option any longer (not sure why that disallows crop, but whatever) so I had to figure this out.

I figured I had to alter the modeline, but the MiSTer doesn't say what modeline is using. I tried some 1080p modelines and none of them would sync with my TV... so I booted a Linux PC, connected it to my TV and got the modeline it used via xrandr and put those settings into MiSTer's configuration. It worked, but I still had the same issue. Weird since that modeline gives a perfect picture on the Linux PC, maybe some weird rounding issue when MiSTer reads edid or something?

Anyway adjusted vertical back porch and front porch to move the image 1 pixel down and... perfect. If I move it two pixels down I get artefacts the the top line so obviously some misalignment going on.

So if anyone else has the same problem, a custom modeline might work.


More relevant, the PSX core works really well, from the games I tried there has been very few compatibility issues, so I wouldn't let the unstable status of the core scare you away from trying it if there's a PSX game you want to play.

Only sad thing is Wipeout games are a bit wonky. Wipeout XL seems to have trouble with CDDA playback and drops sync at screen shakes (PSX > OSSC does not). I had some weird sound issues in both Wipeout and Wipeout 3. Practically everything else I tried was perfect though.

Military Madness: Nectaris was broken initially once I tried it and was fixed like three days later.

Not a game compatibility thing, but it the PSX core currently has one unfortunate problem the MiSTer hasn't had to deal with yet; the PSX has interlaced games. Currently the MiSTer offers bob and weave deinterlacing and neither of those are usable (IMO).


Also is it just me or is there no good composite blur filter? There's one in the Genesis core that works great, but for other cores there's just CRT grid options.
ZellSF
Posts: 2642
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:12 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by ZellSF »

PSX core is now officially released, so no more having to update that separately. Still work in progress though.

Wipeout CDDA was supposedly fixed a while ago.
ZellSF
Posts: 2642
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:12 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by ZellSF »

There's now a "Fixed VBlank" option that makes games that screen shake (Wipeout) playable without switching to a lagger VSync option in the MiSTer's settings. It also comes with a vertical crop setting so 5X scaling can be done on PSX games now too (finally), sadly there's no vertical alignment setting yet so results are sometimes less than ideal.

I can probably just get rid of my PSX now.

Also there's a Saturn core available now, still very alpha/beta though. Probably not recommended to play games, but it's nice to see progress.
Wolf_
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:10 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by Wolf_ »

Saturn and Ps1 cores have come along nicely. Ps1 core is like 98% of the way there and gets small fixes almost daily and the Saturn core is still technically in beta but pretty solid.

MiSTer really has become the dream machine I always wanted and it supports almost every pre-hdmi console. And the exceptions: N64, GC, Wii, DC, and Xbox all have hdmi mods and odes/everdrives that are easily obtainable. The one exception being the ps2 which has a hdmi mod in development from Black Dog Tech (The same guy has done several other systems) but then a global parts shortage happened and I haven't heard any news about it for several years. It is really crazy how in like 5 years my biggest game room asks have all come true. Even lightgun games can work on flatscreens now.

And not to ramble too much but there is even a retrotink pro in the works for any remaining analogue systems to get them to 4k (atm the: PSP, PS2, and CD-I are all I have left on analogue. Super collectors might also have the Nintendo DS Dev console but I'm good just using a 3ds for it) Short of a super leap forward in fpga technology happening I think we've really reached a golden age. Even if you only have a few bucks a retropie does an excellent job on a lot of systems, the optomizations are crazy.
Deubeul
Posts: 43
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 5:51 pm
Location: France

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by Deubeul »

I dream about a PC-FX and a Laseractive core.
Yeah, I know, it's just a dream.
ldeveraux
Posts: 1100
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:20 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by ldeveraux »

Wolf_ wrote:MiSTer really has become the dream machine I always wanted
Now all it needs is a proper front end like RetroPie/EmulationStation
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

ldeveraux wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:MiSTer really has become the dream machine I always wanted
Now all it needs is a proper front end like RetroPie/EmulationStation

This has been explicitly said to go against the philosophy of the lead devs, especially the main dev Sorg. Of course, someone else could create such a front end with a lot of work lacking enthusiastic support from the main devs, but at the same time it's hard to see it getting integrated into the official project even if it happens.
ldeveraux
Posts: 1100
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:20 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by ldeveraux »

fernan1234 wrote:
ldeveraux wrote: Now all it needs is a proper front end like RetroPie/EmulationStation
This has been explicitly said to go against the philosophy of the lead devs, especially the main dev Sorg. Of course, someone else could create such a front end with a lot of work lacking enthusiastic support from the main devs, but at the same time it's hard to see it getting integrated into the official project even if it happens.
Be that as it may, I personally don't consider it as complete as a RetroPie package. Doesn't emulate, sure I get it, but I need to be able to customize my fe.
User avatar
donluca
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:51 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by donluca »

ldeveraux wrote:
Wolf_ wrote:MiSTer really has become the dream machine I always wanted
Now all it needs is a proper front end like RetroPie/EmulationStation
MiSter is aimed at accurately reproducing the hardware behavior of the various platforms the games are run onto.

If anything, it needs exactly the opposite: a way to have it boot straight to a game just like a real PCB would, without going through any menus.

If you're looking for "flashy" alternatives, look no further than the various RasPi solutions.

If you want an happy in-between solution, GroovyMAME/crtEMU with whatever frontend you enjoy most.
ZellSF
Posts: 2642
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2012 11:12 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by ZellSF »

donluca wrote: If anything, it needs exactly the opposite: a way to have it boot straight to a game just like a real PCB would, without going through any menus.
Uh, it has that? MiSTer can autoboot any core, for arcade games the core boots the game without having to navigate any menus.
User avatar
donluca
Posts: 852
Joined: Sat Feb 28, 2015 8:51 pm
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by donluca »

ZellSF wrote:
donluca wrote: If anything, it needs exactly the opposite: a way to have it boot straight to a game just like a real PCB would, without going through any menus.
Uh, it has that? MiSTer can autoboot any core, for arcade games the core boots the game without having to navigate any menus.
Ah, nice! :D

I've not been keeping up with all the MiSTer developments, that's really nice to hear.
fernan1234
Posts: 2167
Joined: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:34 pm

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by fernan1234 »

I could swear there's also a way to boot straight into specific non-arcade games, at least for console systems. But I also vaguely remember it being discouraged for some reason (wearing the SD card faster or something?)
User avatar
Syntax
Posts: 1771
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:10 am
Location: Australia

Re: MiSTer FPGA board

Post by Syntax »

You can use MGL shortcuts/autoloaders.
They link a rom to a core and load it from the main menu.

This way you could have a Shmups folder of games from different consoles in the main menu.

The only drawback is its faster to just reset the mister if you want to choose another title because the menu when in core reverts to the cores game folder, and MGL are treated as cores.

I made a bat based tool to automate this somewhat.

https://misterfpga.org/viewtopic.php?t=4359
Post Reply