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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:26 pm 


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I've also noticed people on the MiSTer forums are frustrated they can't use the video scaler to tate standard resolution arcade games on their 15kHz monitors. :lol:

320 color clocks mashed into 240 or 256 lines isn't possible. It could be done with 480i, but it's a trade off. I bet the first thing they'll do is complain "why is it so blurry"? :lol:

Kinda fun to watch it all.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 8:47 pm 



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More 480i support on MiSTer in general would be really good, but I've gotten the sense that Sorg is not very interested in interlaced output. Not even 1080i as a video mode, which would actually be pretty beneficial for HD CRT and multisync pro monitor users.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 9:47 am 



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Osirus wrote:
dreadnought wrote:
Has anybody managed to display Atari ST / PCW cores on a CRT TV properly? These two won't work on my setup (Direct Video), some other people's also, but I've heard others had more luck.


I believe its because they output a 31kHz signal.


I used to think that, because it says 31kHz in the Wiki, but it's a mistake. It's been confirmed ST actually outputs 15 kHz. I can even see it being reported as such in the info box, but my image is rolling. About PCW, its author also said it works on his 15 kHz monitor.

It seems like the problem is related to my cable / HDMI-VGA dongle or the TV itself (all other cores are working fine).


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 8:16 pm 


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orange808 wrote:
I've also noticed people on the MiSTer forums are frustrated they can't use the video scaler to tate standard resolution arcade games on their 15kHz monitors. :lol:

320 color clocks mashed into 240 or 256 lines isn't possible. It could be done with 480i, but it's a trade off. I bet the first thing they'll do is complain "why is it so blurry"? :lol:

Kinda fun to watch it all.


Most (arcade) 15Khz monitors are also 24Khz capable. You'd lose scanlines but this way you could have full resolution when rotated.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 1:56 pm 


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Quote:
I've also noticed people on the MiSTer forums are frustrated they can't use the video scaler to tate standard resolution arcade games on their 15kHz monitors. :lol:

320 color clocks mashed into 240 or 256 lines isn't possible. It could be done with 480i, but it's a trade off. I bet the first thing they'll do is complain "why is it so blurry"? :lol:

Kinda fun to watch it all.


Purely out of curiosity how does Groovymame handle this? I'm fortunate enough to have a multisync so I assume it just does a 480p scale for tate games to correct them, every tate game I've tried with Groovy is Yoko'd correctly and looks decent enough.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 3:03 pm 


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BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
I've also noticed people on the MiSTer forums are frustrated they can't use the video scaler to tate standard resolution arcade games on their 15kHz monitors. :lol:

320 color clocks mashed into 240 or 256 lines isn't possible. It could be done with 480i, but it's a trade off. I bet the first thing they'll do is complain "why is it so blurry"? :lol:

Kinda fun to watch it all.


Purely out of curiosity how does Groovymame handle this? I'm fortunate enough to have a multisync so I assume it just does a 480p scale for tate games to correct them, every tate game I've tried with Groovy is Yoko'd correctly and looks decent enough.


I'm not sure what Groovy's default behavior would be if you attempted to output a vertical standard resolution game as a boxed rotated image inside 480i. I've never tried it. I have a monitor that sits on it's side and my cab has a rotatable monitor.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 4:53 pm 


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It depends on how VMMaker and GM is configured.

If you set it as 15Khz only and you rotate the game, it will use an interlaced resolution closest to the game's own internal one and add black borders.

If you set it as 15/31Khz because you have a multisync monitor I'm almost certain it will give priority to the closest progressive resolution.
Same should be valid for 15/24.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 10:01 pm 


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So ive got one of those VGA to HDMI adapter as i want o use the MiSTER Direct Video mode so i can hook it up to my CRT.

Ive made my own VGA to Scart cable but am noticing im getting a slight buzzing noise from the speakers of my CRT. Would wiring the left and right audio pins of the scart cable to 1 of the common ground pins on the scart cable fix the issue??


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2021 11:44 pm 



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lettuce wrote:
So ive got one of those VGA to HDMI adapter as i want o use the MiSTER Direct Video mode so i can hook it up to my CRT.

Ive made my own VGA to Scart cable but am noticing im getting a slight buzzing noise from the speakers of my CRT. Would wiring the left and right audio pins of the scart cable to 1 of the common ground pins on the scart cable fix the issue??


Probably best to simply get rid of any analogue audio wiring on the cables you use, since you're better off extracting the digital audio from the HDMI output or using the optical audio output.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:26 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
lettuce wrote:
So ive got one of those VGA to HDMI adapter as i want o use the MiSTER Direct Video mode so i can hook it up to my CRT.

Ive made my own VGA to Scart cable but am noticing im getting a slight buzzing noise from the speakers of my CRT. Would wiring the left and right audio pins of the scart cable to 1 of the common ground pins on the scart cable fix the issue??


Probably best to simply get rid of any analogue audio wiring on the cables you use, since you're better off extracting the digital audio from the HDMI output or using the optical audio output.


Thats not possible when using the Direct Video method, as you dont use the IO board for the mister to get analogue video rather a HDMI to VGA adapter


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 7:06 pm 



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lettuce wrote:
Thats not possible when using the Direct Video method, as you dont use the IO board for the mister to get analogue video rather a HDMI to VGA adapter


It is certainly possible. You just put an HDMI audio extractor in between the HDMI cable and the VGA adapter and you can extract the HDMI audio that way.

I also believe the optical output continues to function even if using direct video from the HDMI, though I've never needed to test this.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2021 6:30 pm 


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Seems like de-10 nano boards are the latest victim of supply issues and scalpers.

So whereas before you had to set vscale in the ini file to get integer scaling, it seems like now alongside the also recent 5x 1080p vertical crop, there are osd options for various integer scales (v scale only and two variants on h+v scale).

As someone who uses global ini vscale and disables it for the cores that have 5x vertical crop, is there any reason to continue using the vscale ini option when I could use the osd options instead? Like are there still cores that have yet to have the osd integer scale options added? Is there any functional difference between the osd scale and the ini scale?
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 11:22 am 


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Hi guys,

I'm seeking a micro sd card for my MiSTer device. These are the ones I'm looking at! I recall using these sandisk ones for Everdrives, Mega SD, and my Android.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07P9W5HJV/re ... UTF8&psc=1

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08HCPTMJG/re ... =UTF8&th=1

Alright gang, I'm gunning for mass storage, around the ballpark of 1-2TB. I'm not looking to spend a lot. One of these cards is normally over $230, while the other is $100. The only differences I can discern are, one is gold the other is silver! I believe the gold one can output 4K while the silver one does full HD. I am curious though, is that the only reason for the price gap? Because if so I can spring for silver since my MiSTer device will be running on a CRT. Even the TV in my master bedroom is only 1080p. So the question becomes, is there something else I'm getting with a card that large? Perhaps faster transfer speeds? Better performance?
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:05 pm 



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cave hermit wrote:
As someone who uses global ini vscale and disables it for the cores that have 5x vertical crop, is there any reason to continue using the vscale ini option when I could use the osd options instead? Like are there still cores that have yet to have the osd integer scale options added? Is there any functional difference between the osd scale and the ini scale?


Good question! Same here, always have had integer scale set globally. I think the Jotego cores don't yet include the OSD integer scaling options, maybe some other non-main-branch cores too probably. Functionally there should be no difference between integer scale set in the ini file or OSD.


Rock Man wrote:
Alright gang, I'm gunning for mass storage, around the ballpark of 1-2TB. I'm not looking to spend a lot. One of these cards is normally over $230, while the other is $100. The only differences I can discern are, one is gold the other is silver! I believe the gold one can output 4K while the silver one does full HD. I am curious though, is that the only reason for the price gap? Because if so I can spring for silver since my MiSTer device will be running on a CRT. Even the TV in my master bedroom is only 1080p. So the question becomes, is there something else I'm getting with a card that large? Perhaps faster transfer speeds? Better performance?


Any reason not to use USB storage instead for games? It's much cheaper.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:13 pm 


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fernan1234 wrote:
cave hermit wrote:
As someone who uses global ini vscale and disables it for the cores that have 5x vertical crop, is there any reason to continue using the vscale ini option when I could use the osd options instead? Like are there still cores that have yet to have the osd integer scale options added? Is there any functional difference between the osd scale and the ini scale?


Good question! Same here, always have had integer scale set globally. I think the Jotego cores don't yet include the OSD integer scaling options, maybe some other non-main-branch cores too probably. Functionally there should be no difference between integer scale set in the ini file or OSD.


Rock Man wrote:
Alright gang, I'm gunning for mass storage, around the ballpark of 1-2TB. I'm not looking to spend a lot. One of these cards is normally over $230, while the other is $100. The only differences I can discern are, one is gold the other is silver! I believe the gold one can output 4K while the silver one does full HD. I am curious though, is that the only reason for the price gap? Because if so I can spring for silver since my MiSTer device will be running on a CRT. Even the TV in my master bedroom is only 1080p. So the question becomes, is there something else I'm getting with a card that large? Perhaps faster transfer speeds? Better performance?


Any reason not to use USB storage instead for games? It's much cheaper.


Didn't even think about that lol. Now I'll have to look into pricing models a 1TB usb drive, been a while since I done that.

I really don't have a preference. So long as it will store my games library, music, documents and videos.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2021 1:17 pm 


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Rock Man wrote:
The only differences I can discern are, one is gold the other is silver!

The gold one is supposed to be higher-performance than the silver one. For SD cards that usually means a higher sutained write speed and sometimes more I/O operations per second.

Quote:
I believe the gold one can output 4K while the silver one does full HD.

The cards have no idea what resolution is used, especially not what output resolution you use. For recording, 4K usually means a higher bit rate, which means that the card must sustain a higher write speed.

Quote:
So the question becomes, is there something else I'm getting with a card that large? Perhaps faster transfer speeds? Better performance?

Usually the highest-performance cards are not the largest-capacity ones, but the market constantly changes and this rule of thumb may or may not be true in this case. It does not really matter for the MiSTer because in normal use it almost exclusely reads from the card and usually does so when starting a game (except for systems that use CDs or HDDs, but the required read speed for those is neglibly in today's terms).

I haven't checked, but it probably doesn't even use the highest-performance SD card transfer modes, so the performance of the card would be limited by the interface and the difference between the two models you linked to would probably not matter.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:00 am 


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Unseen wrote:
Rock Man wrote:
The only differences I can discern are, one is gold the other is silver!

The gold one is supposed to be higher-performance than the silver one. For SD cards that usually means a higher sutained write speed and sometimes more I/O operations per second.

Quote:
I believe the gold one can output 4K while the silver one does full HD.

The cards have no idea what resolution is used, especially not what output resolution you use. For recording, 4K usually means a higher bit rate, which means that the card must sustain a higher write speed.

Quote:
So the question becomes, is there something else I'm getting with a card that large? Perhaps faster transfer speeds? Better performance?

Usually the highest-performance cards are not the largest-capacity ones, but the market constantly changes and this rule of thumb may or may not be true in this case. It does not really matter for the MiSTer because in normal use it almost exclusely reads from the card and usually does so when starting a game (except for systems that use CDs or HDDs, but the required read speed for those is neglibly in today's terms).

I haven't checked, but it probably doesn't even use the highest-performance SD card transfer modes, so the performance of the card would be limited by the interface and the difference between the two models you linked to would probably not matter.

Sorry I'm noticing this late! I've made my decision, it's either go big or go home. Gonna save up for the gold one. I am still buying the 2TB thumbdrive after, but that will be for my PC.

Btw has anyone ever used the MiSTer FPGA to play homebrews like the BOR games? I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be able to run them.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 3:17 pm 



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These?

https://www.gamesdatabase.org/all_system_games-openbor

Aren't those for Windows XP and beyond?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:07 pm 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
These?

https://www.gamesdatabase.org/all_system_games-openbor

Aren't those for Windows XP and beyond?

Pretty much

These are the games I'm interested in running on MiSTer:



Not sure if this counts as BOR, but if the MiSTer can run Windows it shouldn't be a problem.

Spoiler: show
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sonic+triple+trouble+16+bit
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:29 am 


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There are few generations of Windows and CPU iterations between what you can play on a MiSTer and what you want to run. Talking of x86 environments, MiSTer can emulate a low-end 486 system along with a period-accurate OS and software.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:12 pm 


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I see Fudoh, basically it's hit or miss.

Considering BOR operates off an old framework, I'm willing to guess the MiSTer can handle it. The Sonic game I'm less sure of.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:24 pm 


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I think you're still missing 20 years of CPU evolution to run this. BOR should be running fine on 2010 low-end spec PC, but not on a mid 90s low-spec PC that MiSTer can provide.

Since you can pick up any PC good enough for BOR for free or $10 from your local classifieds, what advantage to do you see from running this on MiSter?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:05 am 


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Running those games on my crt. I do have a good PC already, but I'm greedy and wanna play it on two screens.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:23 pm 



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If you mean a 15kHz CRT, you can do that with a Windows PC at 240p already. With an AMD card there's CRT Emu Driver which is easy enough to set up and use. And also, it's used for Groovymame.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:58 pm 


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Quote:
If you mean a 15kHz CRT, you can do that with a Windows PC at 240p already. With an AMD card there's CRT Emu Driver which is easy enough to set up and use. And also, it's used for Groovymame.


While CRT Emu Driver isn't terribly difficult to install, the way you put it there you make it sound like it installs like any other app. That's not true. To install it, you have to enable unsigned drivers to be loaded and basically replace your modern PC GPU drivers with these custom ones.

If you use your PC for work or modern gaming, CRT Emudriver is quite a disruptive thing to install. Better to find an older PC you can use as a dedicated box for it.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 3:43 pm 



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Sure thing. As Fudoh said, "you can pick up any PC good enough for BOR for free or $10 from your local classifieds". I hardly can imagine anyone interested in plugging a PC into a 15kHz CRT trying that with his work station. It's not totally incompatible with modern gaming, though, it really depends on your hardware, setup and how modern your games need to be.


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:19 pm 


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We need a video processor with a small buffer that identifies as a VRR display, downscales video, and outputs analog RGB. Adding six milliseconds of latency won't make much difference and that would be enough to get a decent sync range. Users could feed the output to a CRT or an upscaler.

We need a separate machine to completely bypass all the CRT emudriver rubbish and output analog. I would pay $299 usd for a device that does it. Other gamers will complain about the high price, promise to not buy it, and eventually buy one anyway (just like Framemeister). One HDMI in, analog audio out, digital audio out, and RGB on an HD-15/DE-15. Maybe a SCART output, too.

Theoretically, fast transfer could allow for tate rotation of PC emus with 6ms of lag as well. But, that's probably better suited to an upscaler.

Someday... :)
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 pm 



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orange808 wrote:
We need a video processor with a small buffer that identifies as a VRR display, downscales video, and outputs analog RGB. Adding six milliseconds of latency won't make much difference and that would be enough to get a decent sync range. Users could feed the output to a CRT or an upscaler.

We need a separate machine to completely bypass all the CRT emudriver rubbish and output analog. I would pay $299 usd for a device that does it. Other gamers will complain about the high price, promise to not buy it, and eventually buy one anyway (just like Framemeister). One HDMI in, analog audio out, digital audio out, and RGB on an HD-15/DE-15. Maybe a SCART output, too.

Theoretically, fast transfer could allow for tate rotation of PC emus with 6ms of lag as well. But, that's probably better suited to an upscaler.

Someday... :)


Good luck with that. In the meantime, we already have a software solution which sets _any_ video mode you could ask for (including "tate" modes) in your PC (even a Linux-based one) outputting RGB to feed the (analog) device you want. It only requires a compatible graphics card.

Though maybe I'm just missing what you meant with "CRT Emudriver rubbish"?


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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 10:09 pm 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
Good luck with that. In the meantime, we already have a software solution which sets _any_ video mode you could ask for (including "tate" modes) in your PC (even a Linux-based one) outputting RGB to feed the (analog) device you want. It only requires a compatible graphics card.

Though maybe I'm just missing what you meant with "CRT Emudriver rubbish"?


Guspaz partially explained it already.

Groovy requires a dedicated machine or a variable refresh display. I have a Groovy machine, but it's inconvenient to build and maintain a dedicated Groovy PC.

It's silly that we're using variable refresh rate with stable frame rate source material. That's what I call a "hack". I understand the OS and drivers force the situation, but it's still a pain.
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 Post subject: Re: MiSTer FPGA board
PostPosted: Fri Apr 09, 2021 3:36 am 


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Bassa-Bassa wrote:
If you mean a 15kHz CRT, you can do that with a Windows PC at 240p already. With an AMD card there's CRT Emu Driver which is easy enough to set up and use. And also, it's used for Groovymame.

The only thing that sucks about that is, my PC is in the master bedroom a few feet down the hall, my CRT TV is located in the retro game room a couple of feet away from the bedroom. It would be a hassle to connect my Series X sized PC to the CRT. It's just as well I use this thing to play HD games like Mass Effect and Overwatch anyway lol. Although I do play a couple of retro games here and there such as Sonic CD and KOF on the big PC. That's why I was kind of hoping the Mister FPGA could fill that classic 15kHz, 240p space without the need for me to buy another PC for that specific old ass TV.

I can run classic titles on my monster rig sure, I just desire to have my cake and eat it to. While I have the option to run BOR and homebrews on the master rig, it be nice to be able to run a couple of 90's style games that require little resources to run (i.e. ShellShocked, Rescue Palooza, etc.) on the Mister as well. No I'm not just talking about Super Nintendo, CPS2, or NeoGeo I'm aware that the Mister can run those titles just fine. I meant games like the BOR types, Streets of Rage Remake and so fourth and so on. Running a small handful of 90s PC games would be great too. games like Last Bronx or Sonic R the PC versions, I do own the discs.


Likewise as Fudoh pointed out, I understand if the Mister can't do it. I will acknowledge I'm asking for a lot. Perhaps later down the road I will find a more powerful compact PC than the Mister, that will allow me to run those projects on 15kHz sources.

BuckoA51 wrote:
Quote:
If you mean a 15kHz CRT, you can do that with a Windows PC at 240p already. With an AMD card there's CRT Emu Driver which is easy enough to set up and use. And also, it's used for Groovymame.


While CRT Emu Driver isn't terribly difficult to install, the way you put it there you make it sound like it installs like any other app. That's not true. To install it, you have to enable unsigned drivers to be loaded and basically replace your modern PC GPU drivers with these custom ones.

If you use your PC for work or modern gaming, CRT Emudriver is quite a disruptive thing to install. Better to find an older PC you can use as a dedicated box for it.


Hm, thanks for pointing that out Bucko, here I'm thinking it would be a cake walk.
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